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Offline McLae  
#1 Posted : 14 December 2002 20:19:29(UTC)
McLae


Joined: 16/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,575
Location: DeSoto (Dallas area), TX
I purchased a roco BLS Re 465 (#43953) AC, 'compatible with digital'. I also bought a digital decoder.
Now I am installing the decoder and have a problem:
Install the decoder following instructions, I get lights (on function), I can program address, but loco does not move.
A line in instructions says if problems, rotate plug 180 degrees. This gives movement, but no lights, programming mode does not work.


Questions:
How do I get lights AND movement?

The decoder has a purple (Lila?) wire that is not documented, is this needed?


(BYW, I use IB controler. )

The McLae
IB digital, DB, OBB, SBB epII-V
Providing a home for little lost 'Gators
Offline Lars Westerlind  
#2 Posted : 14 December 2002 23:36:25(UTC)
Lars Westerlind


Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC)
Posts: 2,379
Location: Lindome, Sweden
Motor contacts and rail contacts are arranged symmetrically in the NEM plug, so rotating it shouldn't affect behaviour in any way. Only, if you use a decoder that is sensitive to polarity, which some old Märklind decoders were (and maybe new, I don't know). DCC decoders should have this. So there are two alternatives: bad contact cured by rotating the plug, or wrong polarity in track. You could check the latter by switching cables to track, red and brown, instead of rotating the plug. But this will probably cause your other Märklin locos to be standing still...
If this is so, the loco is wrongly wired. Switch cables between slider/wheels and nem contact then. Or change the decoder to a non polarity sensitive decoder.

Regards,
Lars Westerlind.

Offline Bart  
#3 Posted : 15 December 2002 09:59:02(UTC)
Bart

Netherlands   
Joined: 13/05/2002(UTC)
Posts: 676
Since the function return contact (the 'back' lead from the lights) is the only one that is non-symmetrical in the NEM-plug, I would suppose that the plug position in which the lights work is the right one. If the motor would be polarity-sensitive, you may want to switch the cables (probably green & blue, or orange & grey) from the plug to the motor.

Another check: The socket in your loc may have a pole marked with "1", "+", or "*". This side should take the pole with the orange wire of the decoder.

Of course, all Lars' solutions are right, but I would rather keep the track and slider wiring the original way (assuming that you wired your layout correctly). Changing them might give trouble with a brake module?
Please correct me if I'm wrong - I'm a digital newbie, but I try to master the theory <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

Lila probably is the F2 output. The NEM standard plug does not include function outputs other than F1; you will have to solder it if you need F2.

Bart

*Bart
Offline Lars Westerlind  
#4 Posted : 15 December 2002 10:44:14(UTC)
Lars Westerlind


Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC)
Posts: 2,379
Location: Lindome, Sweden
Bart,
I agree with almoste everything you say. Except:
1. Brake section (Märklin/Lenz style) problems, could occur in the same situation as polarity senitive decoders might have problems. So most probably, if you get the correct polarity for the digital signal, brake sections will almost certainly function too.
2. There might be problems to switch cables between slider/wheel and soceket; easier done for the decoder. For the setup, it doesn't matter where the changing is done, BUT, the dayMcLae would like to change decoder it does. It seems most unlikely that the decoder is wrongly wired, but not impossible that the loco is; as an improperly wired loco with work with many decoders it could also pass tests...

But there is something fishy here in McLaes description. McLae, could you describe more exactly your setup: what actions did you do on the Programming Track and what on main track, Could you change the plug back and still get the original behaviour, what happens when you switch track cables... I assume 3 rail, right or wrong? And what decoder do you use?

Regards,
Lars Westerlind.


Offline McLae  
#5 Posted : 15 December 2002 17:22:42(UTC)
McLae


Joined: 16/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,575
Location: DeSoto (Dallas area), TX
More information:
this is my first Roco loco, so I am finding new things here.

I use Marklin C track, ground is the rails, red is the center. (on the wiring, the power is AC. Polarity does not matter until a rectifier converts AC to DC, and then only from the output of the rectifier, Technical details on request. :) )
I have an IB (intellibox) controller.
I have several Marklin digital loks, including two retrofitted with Uhlenbrock decoders, all work fine.
The Roco lok is #43953.
The decoder is Roco number 10738.

Steps so far:
1. I ran the Lok on analog AC (non digital), and everything looked fine.
2. I read the instructions from both the engine and decoder before opening the Lok. (some people miss this step)
3. Opened the Lok, found: the plug and the 'plus' mark.
4. removed the plug (did not remove the reversing mechanism due to soldered wires), inserted the decoder plug with red/orange next to 'plus'.
5. Turned on power to IB and there for to track, Selected lok address of 3 (default).
6. Function key would turn lights on/off. reversing causes directional lighting to change, no movement of Lok.
7. Changed Lok address, following instructions for IB, lights work under new address, no movement.
8. In decoder instructions, under Functional test, line says if problem, rotate plug 180 degrees, and re-insert. Did this..
9. with reversed plug, Lok now runs, but no lights, and programming mode not working (see 7.)

(Sorry if this is too much information, but I am a Software Engineer, and just kicked into debug mode.)

Thank you for reading this.


The McLae
IB digital, DB, OBB, SBB epII-V
Providing a home for little lost 'Gators
Offline Lars Westerlind  
#6 Posted : 15 December 2002 18:31:18(UTC)
Lars Westerlind


Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC)
Posts: 2,379
Location: Lindome, Sweden
McLae,
1. When speaking about polarity, I was speaking about the digital signal. The digital signal changes between + and -; for the loco to get power, this is rectified inside the loco in a rather normal way. So, it's true that the polarity in that sence doesn't matter. But I was speaking about another aspect - Decoders also listen for signal info - in order to changes speed, light etc. And by Märklin decoders, (becuaus the risk of having changed red and brown cables is little), this is sometimes, maybe always done by only accepting the signals to have a certain polarity, and not the mirror of it. A DCC decoder, which is intended for 2 rail, where one never knows what is "red" and "brown" so to say, it's compulsory to accept both patterns.
2. The not about Märklin locos is important - it tells me that you most probably have the right wiring (sorry for suspecting this error, but it is easy to do it wrong under a C-track, and also at the stupid IB connector). Nevertheless, it would be a good and easy test if you versed the cables with the plug in the position where the light works.
3. You don't tell us if you use the Programming track, and if you use CV programming of the decoder. I assume you don't? You say changed adress? By CV programming, or the button on decoder, or what? And please note, (sorry to say this), that the cables to the PT might be reversed as well...
4. You say you have the lila f2 cable. In last years Roco catalogue, the 10738 doesn't have f2, only f1. Are you sure you have the correct decoder? I wouldn't be surprised, such matters change fast.
5. I guess this decoder is made by ESU, which is possible to run on both Märklin and DCC protocol. But I really am not sure. So it might be important what protocol you use: I assume Märklin new is used for this, the IB should show an m etc. But please tell. And if DCC, it's different with DCC 14 and DCC 28+...
6. Would it be difficult to reverse the plug again and see? If it is bad contact or something...

So, it's me who is sorry,
I'm a software engineer too, so I would like even more info before trying to give advice.

Regards,
Lars


Offline Lars Westerlind  
#7 Posted : 16 December 2002 00:02:08(UTC)
Lars Westerlind


Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC)
Posts: 2,379
Location: Lindome, Sweden
Additional silly question:
when the plug is reversed, and the train runs, does it run in both directions? And the opposite; did you try direction change when not runnable? There might be an error in one output stage of the decoder ...
/Lars

Offline McLae  
#8 Posted : 16 December 2002 23:22:33(UTC)
McLae


Joined: 16/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,575
Location: DeSoto (Dallas area), TX
to answer questions:
Programming was done with CV; push button on decoder, select lok address, send reverse code. Address change tested by setting new Lok number, selecting new address with IB, and reversing. Lights would change when Lok was reversed, but Lok did not move.

When decoder inserted 'backward', Lok ran in both directions, run, stop, reverse, run, stop, etc. (just no lights)

On Lila cable, it just hangs off the side, not mentioned in documentation.

On a side note, the documentation talks about electrical isolation, not putting tape over parts of decoder, etc., but this decoder is covered in plastic. Do I need to remove this plastic?

As to part numbers, I ordered this from Reynauld's; this is what they have listed to modify the engines they sell to digital... It did not occur to me until reading your posts that there might be more than one type of decoder from Roco. It is possible I have the wrong type of decoder, but how do I tell?

BTW, does Uhlenbrock make NEM Plug decoders?


The McLae
IB digital, DB, OBB, SBB epII-V
Providing a home for little lost 'Gators
Offline Lars Westerlind  
#9 Posted : 17 December 2002 09:38:51(UTC)
Lars Westerlind


Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC)
Posts: 2,379
Location: Lindome, Sweden
Hello again,
nice you haven't lost patience yet <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>...

1. IMHO what you describe isn't CV programming. It's the special programming available with ROCO decoders, allowing them to be programmed also for the poor people only having a 6021... <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>
CV programming by IB is to have a Programming track (PT) with separate connection to the IB, choosing Programming mode+menu, and selecting CV programming on the menu. I think this option is available with your decoders, but it depends a little bit on what decoder it is...
2. Output stages of the decoders apparently seem to be OK. I still would like you to do two tests:
A. Insert the plug in the position where the lights. Please verify again that the loco doesn't move.
B. With plug in this position, switch the cables to the track, red and brown. Be careful though, if you have a common ground wiring, you can't do this to the main track - you have to use a test track.

A is to show if the failure is because av bad contact, or the motor is hard to start or something.
B might lead to that the loco both runs and the lights are OK. In that case the cables are wrongly wired in loco or decoder, as described before. It would mean red and black cables in many decoder schemes (not Märklin), but I'm not sure.

3. The lila cable is certainly F2, as Bart described. In the NEM plug there is no space for this.

4. You should not remove the plastic.

5. Roco have made an important change from Lenz to ESU Loksound as decoder supplier. I do have Lenz and ESU decoders, but no Roco, so I can't tell you in detail how to differentiate. Cable colours, PCB printing, documentation might show the origin; reading CV values too, but probably this isn't very important.

6. Yes UB make NEM plug decoders, as well as Lenz, ESU and all DCC decoders Suppliers. The only one I know that don't is Märklin... Why do you ask?

/Lars

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