Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

2 Pages12>
Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline Dreadnought  
#1 Posted : 07 June 2015 14:38:46(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 397
Location: Niagara, Ontario
Over the winter I replaced my M track layout with C track. I had a number of switches. I had the "electric turnout mechanism put in them. There were about 25 of them. I also got three double slip switches, and a three way switch.

They are controlled with 72720 and 72710 control boxes. The system is run by a CS 2. The switches are powered from the yellow connector of a 66470 white trtansformer. Both systems are to a common (brown) ground.

Six of the motors have failed. They will operate one way, but not the other. My first ones I took back to the dealer, who replaced them.

In one case the mechanism came back to life, and (touch wood) seems fine. One briefly came back to life and has since reverted to only working one way. It has happened with double slip switches too, which have the mechanism factory installed.

I was talking with a retired Marklin dealer. I told him my sad tale. He shook his head, and, in so many words said how sad it was that Marklin had let something this unreliable on the market. He seemed sorry his beloved Marklin has so slipped. My old M track switches were faultless from a mechanical point of view. Apparently the problem does not happen if you use the "digital installation decoder".

Have any others encountered this problem?
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Dreadnought
Offline kiwiAlan  
#2 Posted : 07 June 2015 14:47:29(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,151
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Dreadnought Go to Quoted Post

I was talking with a retired Marklin dealer. I told him my sad tale. He shook his head, and, in so many words said how sad it was that Marklin had let something this unreliable on the market. He seemed sorry his beloved Marklin has so slipped. My old M track switches were faultless from a mechanical point of view. Apparently the problem does not happen if you use the "digital installation decoder".

Have any others encountered this problem?


I am surprised your retired Marklin dealer doesn't know of the problem, as it is a well known problem.

The micro switches that are operated by the solenoids to turn off the current when the turnout has changed position are unreliable. If using digital decoders the standard trick is to short out all the terminals on the switch with solder.

However you are not using digital, so if you do this you run a risk of burning out the solenoids if you manage to keep your finger on the button too long. There are two possibilities here, keep returning failed motors to your dealer for exchange, or short out the micro switches AND use a capacitor discharge similar to what 2 rail people have been using for years. These will supply a good pulse of current for a short time, but if you keep your finger on the button the current is limited and the solenoid will not burn out.

thanks 5 users liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
Offline witzlerh  
#3 Posted : 07 June 2015 14:55:32(UTC)
witzlerh

Canada   
Joined: 25/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 416
Location: Sherwood Park, AB, Canada
Yes this switch motor is one of the very few things that Märklin has let us down on.

95% of the time with these switch motors, the end contact relays have burn out. There are some excellent posts in this forum (perhaps a YouTube video?) on how to jumper those relays to get many more years life out of them. I have done this to some of my motors and now some more recently purchased motors are showing the same thing.

The purpose of these relays is to prevent burning out the motor if you lean on the mechanical/electrical button too long. However if you use digital to control the switch motors, the impulse time is programmed in so the risk of burning out your motors is low.

However you track will have to be lifted to get at them.

The repair entails getting the motors out and bending back the metal clips carefully to get the cover off, then you solder a bit of wire to jumper the end relays, put the cover back on, test the motor and re install. About 5 min per motor after you do the first one.
Harald
CS2 DB & Canadian Era 3-6
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by witzlerh
Offline Dreadnought  
#4 Posted : 07 June 2015 16:13:36(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 397
Location: Niagara, Ontario
Thank you for the prompt replies.

KiwiAlan, The retired dealer knew it well, both from the look on his face, and his grumblings about the problem. I think these mechanisms have been around a while. I am surprised Marklin has not put in a fix or a different system. Do you know if they are made in Goppingen?

I am at about 25% failure rate in less than six months, vrs 0 on my fifty plus year old M switches.

I shall have words with Florian Sieber and Uwe Muller when I am in Goppingen for the Treff. Maybe they will simply send me about a dozen mechanisms a year!

You solution is way too technical for me, and requires far greater skills than I have. I shall forward this to my dealer, who is rapidly becoming the largest returner of these defective mechanisms. I expect he will be able to do this, unless he just wants to keep returning them to Marklin.

Thank you very much for your help. I do not think I lean on the motor too long, but I shall be careful of that from now on.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Dreadnought
Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 07 June 2015 16:58:40(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,751
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: Dreadnought Go to Quoted Post
Do you know if they are made in Goppingen?
The failing micro-switches are not made in Göppingen. But the specifications are made there. And the QA should be made there.
A post on Stummi's Forum suggests these items are coming from a supplier (I couldn't find it, maybe it was auto-cropped).

Originally Posted by: Dreadnought Go to Quoted Post
Apparently the problem does not happen if you use the "digital installation decoder".
Same problem with digital operation - but the micro-switches can be bridged to get things working again.

M track turnouts do not have micro-switches.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by H0
Offline Joseph Meiring  
#6 Posted : 07 June 2015 22:20:14(UTC)
Joseph Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,157
Location: Western Cape Cape Town
This is rather worrying.....as only about a month or two ago I received a mail from M (after telling them that 16 of my switches have failed in the past year) stating that there "have been some problems in the past", but there are now "new generation" mechs being released, and I must return all my faulty ones to Marklin which they will replace with the "new generation" 74491 switches.....
So, are the above failed switches of the "new generation" ones.....if so all my new switches will no doubt fail again.....
Joe
Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 07 June 2015 22:32:00(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,751
Location: DE-NW
Rumours say the new generation 74491 started shipping in May 2015.
So those installed in the Winter (northern hemisphere) cannot be from the latest generation.

There should be a revision number on the PCB or somewhere.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by H0
Offline Joseph Meiring  
#8 Posted : 07 June 2015 22:33:35(UTC)
Joseph Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,157
Location: Western Cape Cape Town
...I just checked my e mails - Frank Mayer wrote me on 07 April 2015: "We had a lot of trouble with the turnout motors in the past. That is true. But actual we have a new generation of these motors available. So from us you will get only this new generation, when you send us the damaged turnout motors."
I certainly hope (and pray!) that your motors were NOT of the "new generation"....!!
(EDIT: Actually 14 of 18 mechs failed.....)
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Joseph Meiring
Offline Joseph Meiring  
#9 Posted : 07 June 2015 22:38:51(UTC)
Joseph Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,157
Location: Western Cape Cape Town
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Rumours say the new generation 74491 started shipping in May 2015.
So those installed in the Winter (northern hemisphere) cannot be from the latest generation.

There should be a revision number on the PCB or somewhere.

Thanks Tom - that's a relief.....that makes sense as for some time now no mechs have been available from Modellbahnshop-lippe nor Lokshop - were they waiting for the new generation mechs?!
I am still busy pulling up my track,ballast and removing the mechs - then i will send them all to M...
Joe
Offline Dreadnought  
#10 Posted : 08 June 2015 23:51:39(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 397
Location: Niagara, Ontario
Thank you all for the responses,

I shall make sure I am putting the new generation in place. It is going to be quite a labour as at least three are in a hidden yard, and very difficult to get at.

I guess I shall not be able to "shirt front" Herren Sieber and Muller after all, ( to use an "down under" expression).

Now to start the surgery!
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Dreadnought
Offline adelrs  
#11 Posted : 09 June 2015 02:30:16(UTC)
adelrs

United States   
Joined: 20/05/2014(UTC)
Posts: 15
Location: TEXAS, ROUND ROCK
I currently have 16 74491 turnout mechanisms for my train set. In February of this year, 3 of my 16 turnout mechanisms failed within a 48 hour period. That frustration along with move that a was planning to a new place, I decided to pack up my train set until after I moved. After the move when I set up my train set an additional 9 turnout mechanisms wouldn't work. Using the routine described elsewhere I soldered up the micro switches and got all 9 switches working. Of the 4 that didn't fail, I have 2 of the "new" 74491 switches (with the bigger label) which were working until today, when one these "new" switches failed.

Taking apart this "new" switch I found that the internal mechanisms are identical to the old switch. Internal part numbers are identical, Nothing has changed, just a different label. 20150608_192224.jpg
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by adelrs
Offline river6109  
#12 Posted : 09 June 2015 03:06:05(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,076
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
When I took my electric switches apart I've found 2 problems.
a.) the circuit board was faulty, the contact on the circuit board was broken but it wasn't visible only when I used the multimeter one could see the problem.
b.) the main problem was the micro switch, I've bought new micro switches and replaced the old ones and to my surprise after soldering them on again the same problem appeared, the tension on the lever was lost and my conclusion was, when soldering them on again do not use a hot soldering iron.

I don't think anybody at Märklin ever ever had a look at them and made a constructive finding or have found the fault.

the moment you lose that tension the switch is useless, you can replace hundreds of them but if you use the same high temperature rating on your solder iron you will have the same results: failure.

I am amazed, (I don't know how many years it is now they haven't been able to fix it). a friend of mine lives in Berlin and he just was sending his 6 turnout mechanism back to Märklin received 6 back in the mail and 3 of them failed again (this was last week).

mine are operated with AC power and I haven't had any problem since than (C-track turnouts). all my K-track turnouts are now operated via an ESU micro switch motor under the board, a.) slow turning of tongue, b.) a reliable stop position without the possibility of any movement.

any model train enthusiast these days expects turnouts to move slowly and the same goes with signals (fade in and out) but Märklin produces highly complicated mechanism which are lightly to fail and have done so in the past.


John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by river6109
Offline Joseph Meiring  
#13 Posted : 09 June 2015 10:03:06(UTC)
Joseph Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,157
Location: Western Cape Cape Town
Thanks for that John - I wonder just what Marklin have done in the "new generation" mechanisms to sort out the problem??
I've lost count how many mechs I have returned to M over the years! And because of the postage costs have also resorted to soldering..its such a pain having to lift the track in "delicate" areas and buggering up the ballast/scenery......and am contemplating whether i should in fact send all my mechs back to M for the new generation switches, or do I just solder all of them...?!?!?.....and trust these will continue to work??...the fact that your friend's failed just last week is MOST concerting!
Alternatively, replace them with the slow action Viessmann motors/switches?...at a cost tho....
Joe
Offline river6109  
#14 Posted : 09 June 2015 11:19:49(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,076
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Joe Meiring Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for that John - I wonder just what Marklin have done in the "new generation" mechanisms to sort out the problem??
I've lost count how many mechs I have returned to M over the years! And because of the postage costs have also resorted to soldering..its such a pain having to lift the track in "delicate" areas and buggering up the ballast/scenery......and am contemplating whether i should in fact send all my mechs back to M for the new generation switches, or do I just solder all of them...?!?!?.....and trust these will continue to work??...the fact that your friend's failed just last week is MOST concerting!
Alternatively, replace them with the slow action Viessmann motors/switches?...at a cost tho....
Joe


Joe, I can't remember who my friend talked to Märklin but he was assured they would work, to me with the latest outcome its a story I remember many years ago when I bought quite an expensive new Ford limousine and I had to take it back with a failing cruise control, I've spend more time at the service department than at home. because they couldn't fix it after a dozen or so attempts, they said I'll get a new one in 6 month time, the phone call came to bring the car back and they assured me it will be for the last time, they've installed and 500 meters up the road the same happened, it no longer worked. I made a decision not to take it back to them, got home, opened the bonnet and by mow I knew what was what regarding the cruise control, I've pushed a few hoses in although they were not directly associated with the new cruise control unit (exchanged for a new one) started the car and never had a problem from that day onwards. the hoses or the line worked under suction so they had to be airtight.
the sum up the story, from the beginning I had people from Ford right to the top assuring me they'll fix it and this just shows you companies like this it goes down the line but no one is actually monitoring the performance or detecting where the fault lies.

Mind you Märklin had ample time to discover, rectify, change the design or mechanism but apparently did nothing and more surprisingly is, we don't have the numbers but in anybodies mind if you get your faulty product back year after year you do something about it but unless someones life is in danger or some one has died from it, there is no need to change it or replace it with a faultless one. we just change the product number and this looks to me Märklin has done.

My friend has send the 3 back and I'll ask him the outcome in due course and I'll inform you of the latest update from Märklin's answer.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by river6109
Offline Drongo  
#15 Posted : 09 June 2015 15:00:31(UTC)
Drongo

Australia   
Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,054
Location: Sydney, NSW
Over the past 2 years I've sent back over 50 motors and the last lot come a month ago. This time on the packing slip it stated that the motors were made in China. Cursing Cursing Cursing Cursing

If companies are going to have items made in China - that's ok - however, there is one thing they MUST do. And that is, they must send someone over to supervise the production and do the quality control testing, otherwise they end up with a container load of faulty motors. Hopefully, Marklin have learnt their lesson - an expensive lesson.

That's my 2 cents.
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
Website - www.simplesite.com/gregstrain
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Drongo
Offline witzlerh  
#16 Posted : 09 June 2015 16:16:43(UTC)
witzlerh

Canada   
Joined: 25/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 416
Location: Sherwood Park, AB, Canada
I have the Viessmann 4554 slow motion switch motor (with decoder built in) and it has not been perfect either. I had 2 but one slowly failed, (I think that it was too tight). I have bought 2 more early this year and they are performing well.

I also have the Marklin 74491 new switch. So far it is performing well but 2 of my older ones just stopped working the other day. Time to open up and solder.
I have not done my final layout so I am OK with lifting.
Harald
CS2 DB & Canadian Era 3-6
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by witzlerh
Offline RayF  
#17 Posted : 09 June 2015 18:55:04(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,694
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: Drongo Go to Quoted Post
Over the past 2 years I've sent back over 50 motors and the last lot come a month ago. This time on the packing slip it stated that the motors were made in China. Cursing Cursing Cursing Cursing

If companies are going to have items made in China - that's ok - however, there is one thing they MUST do. And that is, they must send someone over to supervise the production and do the quality control testing, otherwise they end up with a container load of faulty motors. Hopefully, Marklin have learnt their lesson - an expensive lesson.

That's my 2 cents.


Hi Drongo,

I think you'll find that the problems with these motors dates from before production was moved to China, so I'm afraid we can't lay this particular problem at their feet.

I have worked for many years in electronics, and I can tell you that micro switches are generally extremely unreliable. In my previous job we used to buy them by the bucketful to replace faulty ones in many pieces of equipment.

I am sure that reliable ones are available at a cost, but we might not be willing to pay the extra price for a simple turnout motor.

I'm interested to find out what components are used in the new motors, and how they think they will be better than those they have tried in the past.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by RayF
Offline Joseph Meiring  
#18 Posted : 09 June 2015 20:07:38(UTC)
Joseph Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,157
Location: Western Cape Cape Town
".....I'm interested to find out what components are used in the new motors, and how they think they will be better than those they have tried in the past......"
My thoughts exactly Ray.....as I'm reading these posts, and contemplating what I should do with all my failed mechs, I get the feeling soldering is the best route to take...I would hate to place the new generation mechs and have them fail on me.....horrors upon horrors...Cursing
Joe











i
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Joseph Meiring
Offline Dreadnought  
#19 Posted : 09 June 2015 23:18:33(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 397
Location: Niagara, Ontario
I just had an e mail from my dealer. As far as he knows no official word has come about a new or improved version of 74491. He is going to look at his most recent arrivals to see if they are any different.

Given my mechanical ineptitude, my plan will have to be to flood Maklin with defective mechanisms. I only have to return them to my dealer, so it's not as bad as sending them to Germany. The obvious down side is having to take up switches and replace them.

Out of curiosity, can anyone explain why my 50 plus year old M track switches still work faultlessly? They have crossed the Atlantic, been in storage in damp basements, and much neglected. Why would Marklin not simply keep the same motor?

Maybe when we are at theTreff we should arrange a meeting with Mr. Sieber after all.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Dreadnought
Offline Shamu  
#20 Posted : 10 June 2015 04:24:02(UTC)
Shamu

Australia   
Joined: 12/07/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,068
Location: In a building site in Yeppoon
I have yet to crack one open and do a ball park assessment of the actual cost of these items but I would be very surprised if they cost "M" more than a couple of Euro's a pop in bulk....... considering what we pay for them its no skin off their nose to have to endlessly replace them. I'm assuming that only around 10 to 20% of people could actually be bothered to return the faulty ones.

However that being said it is truly sad that "M" seam incapable of designing new and "Reliable" versions of the point motors, only the shadow knows.

I've come to the conclusion that turtle motors will be way too expensive so I will just solder all mine (~50) before layout construction starts. As they will all be digitally controlled there is no real need for the micro switches anyway.
Sad when its cheaper to buy a new 29640 starter set from Germany than a CS2 on its own in Oz, welcome to the joys of Marklin down under .
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Shamu
Offline H0  
#21 Posted : 10 June 2015 07:44:45(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,751
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Dreadnought Go to Quoted Post
Out of curiosity, can anyone explain why my 50 plus year old M track switches still work faultlessly?
The trouble with the new mechanisms comes mainly from the micro-switches. M track turnouts do not have micro-switches and the solenoids are more robust.
C track has tiny fragile solenoids and micro-switches as an overload protection. Too often the micro-switches prevent both overload and normal operation.

Some folks write that the first generation of 74490 works reliable for a long time. I cannot verify this, but there were different hardware revisions sold as "74490".
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline RayF  
#22 Posted : 10 June 2015 12:30:49(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,694
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
The old M track electric turnouts had a huge bulge in the metal roadbed to make enough room for the chunky solenoids. It may be possible to redesign C track turnouts to fit such a large mechanism, but I don't think most people want to go in that direction.

As Tom has pointed out, most of the trouble is caused by the micro-switches, which are not present in M-Track turnouts. I agree that shorting these out is the best soultion in the interim. Unfortunately I would have to destroy a lot of my scenic work to get access to my worst offenders.

A temporary solution I've found works is to dribble some Marklin oil into the mechanism from above. This seems to make them work for a few weeks at a time. Perhaps the oil attacks the oxidation on the contacts, restoring electrical contact for a while?
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by RayF
Offline river6109  
#23 Posted : 10 June 2015 16:15:35(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,076
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
this troublesome story about these turnout mechanisms isn't anymore an issue about quality control its an issue about total incompetence. no one has taken control over this problem and someone told someone to fix the problem and than the problem insisted and someone else told some one else to fix the problem but the problem appeared again, quality control ? I don't think so. so the best we can do is contact the people who produce these mechanisms and tell them to fix it, another six month go by but dealers are still selling faulty turnout mechanisms and Märklin is still supplying faulty mechanisms, so we finish up with anew version with a new item number and guess what, the problem is still there. does it take 3 years or so to figure out its maybe the micro switches which causes the failure ? and is it not apparent a faulty design is going back and forwards by trying to patch it up and hope for the best ?

not even in the car industry they would have got away with it.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by river6109
Offline Dreadnought  
#24 Posted : 11 June 2015 04:29:56(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 397
Location: Niagara, Ontario
To continue to flog the dead horse, or switch motor:

Ray, I tried dribbling some Marklin oil on my worst offenders. One of them worked once, then reverted. It had no effect on the other.

The defective ones will go to turn, they will not return to strait.

I looked at a 2003 catalogue. The mechanism, which looks to me to be identical, is given item number 74490. Did they have the same problem? Has Marklin been ignoring this problem for now 12 years?

Maybe we should have a chat with Mr Sieber after all, and take our defective ones to the Treff to give to him.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Dreadnought
Offline H0  
#25 Posted : 11 June 2015 07:26:01(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,751
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Dreadnought Go to Quoted Post
The mechanism, which looks to me to be identical, is given item number 74490. Did they have the same problem?
The early 74491 are identical to the latest 74490. The new hardware came earlier than the new ref. number.

Originally Posted by: Dreadnought Go to Quoted Post
Has Marklin been ignoring this problem for now 12 years?
No, no, no. They revised the hardware and came up with a new ref. number.
Not a success story. Long time, little (if any) progress.

Some folks say the early 74490 didn't have that problem. Production moving from West to East, further to the East, finally to Far East. And optimizations of production costs ...
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by H0
Offline river6109  
#26 Posted : 11 June 2015 07:45:20(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,076
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Dreadnought Go to Quoted Post
The mechanism, which looks to me to be identical, is given item number 74490. Did they have the same problem?
The early 74491 are identical to the latest 74490. The new hardware came earlier than the new ref. number.

Originally Posted by: Dreadnought Go to Quoted Post
Has Marklin been ignoring this problem for now 12 years?
No, no, no. They revised the hardware and came up with a new ref. number.
Not a success story. Long time, little (if any) progress.

Some folks say the early 74490 didn't have that problem. Production moving from West to East, further to the East, finally to Far East. And optimizations of production costs ...



Tom. it looks like they've gone to far east and they further they've gone far east, the further the problem intensified, It's nice to know on the way they've optimized the production cost and at the same time optimized the problem to its highest point of incompetence, as Confucius said: don't get your hopes to high you may get confused what the problem is all about

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by river6109
Offline Joseph Meiring  
#27 Posted : 11 June 2015 08:41:24(UTC)
Joseph Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,157
Location: Western Cape Cape Town
Originally Posted by: Dreadnought Go to Quoted Post
To continue to flog the dead horse, or switch motor:

Ray, I tried dribbling some Marklin oil on my worst offenders. One of them worked once, then reverted. It had no effect on the other.

The defective ones will go to turn, they will not return to strait.

I looked at a 2003 catalogue. The mechanism, which looks to me to be identical, is given item number 74490. Did they have the same problem? Has Marklin been ignoring this problem for now 12 years?

Maybe we should have a chat with Mr Sieber after all, and take our defective ones to the Treff to give to him.


My very first lot of switches, 74490, bought in 2011, failed after just 3 months - so the problem certainly has been around for a LONG time! M very quickly replaced them. After the replaced mechs also failed, they were quite happy to replace them without me even sending the faulty ones back, even sending me an additional mech, over and above the number I said had failed!
I also tried various oils, (spray type as well, but it was never long lasting....
I would definitely advocate a chat to Mr Sieber......somewhere, somehow, this vexing problem MUST be solved.....can M really just be happy to keep on keep on replacing defective mechs?? What a sad reflection on the once proud name of Marklin......Crying
Joe
Offline pn  
#28 Posted : 11 June 2015 13:46:12(UTC)
pn

Portugal   
Joined: 13/04/2011(UTC)
Posts: 143
Location: Portugal
This is a sad story... especially if scenery has to be destroyed and redone just to replace faulty turnout motors every couple of months...

Question: Are there any different experiences with digital and non-digital operations?

I would assume that with digital operation the problems could occur less frequently or later in time due to the much more controlled electric pulses than the ones produced by our fingers pushing a button for too long.
Does this make sense in the context of the problem herein being discussed or am I completely off track?

Thanks,
Pedro
P.S.: I've already heard so many times about problems with Märklin's turnout motors that I'm not sure anymore if there one root cause for the faults or several root causes ending up in the same result.

Edited by user 11 June 2015 17:29:41(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by pn
Offline Dreadnought  
#29 Posted : 11 June 2015 15:05:05(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 397
Location: Niagara, Ontario
A double slip switch failed this morning during the commuter rush hour. That brings to seven that have failed out of 27 in about five months.
Freude Bahn (FB) is considering a lawsuit against Marklin, if the company is sued by its customers.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Dreadnought
Offline RayF  
#30 Posted : 11 June 2015 15:14:58(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,694
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
What I might do in the future is to cut a hole in the baseboard under each point motor, so that I can always remove it if it fails. I read about someone recommending this years ago.

It's a shame I never did it when I first laid the track!

To put the problem in context on my layout, I have 14 point motors, of which 5 have been giving me problems. I have always managed to get them to work again by soaking the mechanism in oil. The "work-around" revives the solenoid for about 2-3 months before it starts getting stuck at one end again.

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by RayF
Offline Joseph Meiring  
#31 Posted : 12 June 2015 07:54:41(UTC)
Joseph Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,157
Location: Western Cape Cape Town
Am just as sorry that I did not follow the hole under the baseboard procedure, Ray.....one of our club members did just that when he started his layout, and so for him its a simple process to get to the faulty mechs.....I just hate having to cut around carefully laid scenery...such a pain.
maybe I need to do it now...?!!?.....Scared
Joe
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Joseph Meiring
Online pederbc  
#32 Posted : 12 June 2015 11:11:12(UTC)
pederbc

Sweden   
Joined: 11/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 88
Location: Eslöv, Sweden
Hi,

This has been mentined before, I'm sure.

The problem lies in the lousy quality of the microswitches at the ends. The "improvement" in 74491 over 74490 is that they soldered a capacitor over the switch to reduce the sparks. I can't say that it has helped a bit, though. And as it seems that Märklin will never fix this, the best solution is to remove the switches and "shortcut the leads. Then you have to rely on the decoder to only operate it with a short pulse. I have done this with all my switches and have had only one burnt due to a failing Littfinski decoder. I have replaced all the Littfinski type with the latest Märklin decoder with which you have control of pulse length etc. They can also use a separate power adapter which is a far cheaper way than adding a booster.

/Peder
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by pederbc
Offline river6109  
#33 Posted : 12 June 2015 11:40:50(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,076
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
..here is the answer from Märklin to my friend: ...... Märklin hat mich informiert, daß sie nunmehr Tests mit nochmals geänderten Antrieben für DKWs machen, und auch die Konstruktion der DKWs überarbeiten wollen.



... ich finde das schon enorm, daß ich als kleiner „David“ den großen „Goliath“ zu solchen Maßnahmen bringen kann !!!



... nach Freigabe der Teile bekomme ich kostenlos wieder neue ...

Märklin informed me they will make more tests and will alter the turnout mechanism and also the mechanism of the double switches, after the alterations he will receive the new ones free.

my friend is humbled receiving an answer and more or less following his advice

regards.,
John

Edited by user 12 June 2015 17:37:19(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by river6109
Offline Janne75  
#34 Posted : 12 June 2015 11:41:44(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,681
Location: Finland
I have around 25 electric turnouts with these 74490/74491 turnout motors. I have decoders in all of them and I control them with CS2. I have at the moment problems with two of them = the ones I have not soldered/shorted micro-switches yet. My recommendation is to solder ALL of them for the reliable operation. I´m lucky with these two turnouts as there is not yet scenery in these locations.

Joe, I´m sorry you have to take apart your scenery to get access to your faulty turnout motors. I would not trust Märklin and hope to get newer and better ones they promise. I my opinion the new ones will be as bad as the old ones have been for very long time Angry .

Edit: All versions I have got are as bad. Versions 1.2 , 1.3 and 1.4 printed on the PCB. They have changed some things, but all have failed sooner or later.
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Janne75
Offline witzlerh  
#35 Posted : 12 June 2015 15:14:59(UTC)
witzlerh

Canada   
Joined: 25/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 416
Location: Sherwood Park, AB, Canada
Before you tear apart your scenery, check if you are not nearing the power limits of your CS2 or related boosters. I just finished re-arraigning my layout and was going to work on my 2 problem switches and they were working fine!

I then remembered that my dad had the same problem of the switches. I came over an quickly realized that 12 trains (some with carriage lights) were on 1 CS2 and that is was showing a 80% current draw and naturally a lower voltage. Since then, a booster and transformer has given him problem free switch motors.

So, if in operating your switch motors and it seams the layout noticeably dims, you may have a power problem. This is usually solved with a booster/transformer or if you do not have enough power drops as I also did with my previous layout, that could help reduce voltage drops.

If you did short out the limit switches and still have problems of them switching only one way or erratically, you may have a power problem.

One way to verify this easily is to remove most of your trains and operate the switches. If they work fine whereas before, they did not, then you know you have a power problem.

Also if you have an old lok that has spur gears rather than the worm gear and an old decoder without back EMF, you can watch it go around. It will slow down in lower voltage areas more readily than new loks with new decoders that tend to adjust better to power fluctuations. This is useful in finding where you lost a power drop due to a broken rail joint connector.
Harald
CS2 DB & Canadian Era 3-6
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by witzlerh
Offline clapcott  
#36 Posted : 14 June 2015 00:49:46(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,324
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: witzlerh Go to Quoted Post
...check if you are not nearing the power limits of your CS2 or related boosters. ...


Sufficient Power is always a worthwhile check, however it may not just be a control unit power issue. If your voltage has dropped across your layout (bad and restive connections, insufficient gauge wire) the initial grunt to get a solenoid moving will not be there.
Also do not discount the driver transistor in the k83 (Marklin and non-marklin). While I do not recall a problem with the older 6083 with their discrete transistors I have had faulty or sluggish ports with the newer variants.

People believing that simply using an external power source solves the problem are not necessarily doing a true comparison.



However, from my experience I would be more inclined to say it is more often that it is too much voltage/power that causes unreliable operation (in combination with the micro-switch actually working as designed). In this case the rebound, bounce-back causes the turnout tongues to return to a midway position.
Sure, bypassing the switch resolves this but that is only because the power remains available throughout the bounce-back settling time.

The bounce back may be dampened by simply re-inserting the lever (that may have been removed for cosmetic reasons).
The other workaround, that was promoted by Marklin in the past, was to install a resistor in series with the yellow wire.


So these, as well as mechanical binds with the armature (including, but not limited to catching on the micro-switch) and high resistance coils (possibly caused by overriding the micro-switch and not reducing the pulse time) may be added to the list of various issues around these devices. And while bypassing the micro-switch(es) may be a workaround I am not sure that it is always the case of micro-switches themselves failing.


I would certainly advise that if, as part of your problem determination, you have extended the pulse width set for a turnout (from its default 200ms) and you subsequently bypass the switch, that you ensure you return the setting to 200ms. In some cases you may find 100ms (or less) is sufficient.

And this consideration is not limited to the controller alone!
If you have a PC controlling the on and off times, it is important to understand that they control the commands to the k83 (i.e. a PC does not say to the Controller "please pulse this turnout to red" and leave the Controller to both energise and de-energise the circuit - The PC send both an energise command and a de-energise command.)

The m83 introduces some other (safe guard options) with max-on time settings (if used)
Peter
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by clapcott
Offline H0  
#37 Posted : 14 June 2015 07:35:24(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,751
Location: DE-NW
Ho!
Originally Posted by: witzlerh Go to Quoted Post
I then remembered that my dad had the same problem of the switches. I came over an quickly realized that 12 trains (some with carriage lights) were on 1 CS2 and that is was showing a 80% current draw and naturally a lower voltage. Since then, a booster and transformer has given him problem free switch motors.
When using transformers, effective track voltage goes down considerably under load. Using switching-mode power supplies, track voltage should be rather stable.

When using switching-mode power supplies, adding a booster and another power supply may not improve the situation (unless the voltage drop is caused by insufficient wire gauges).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline DumbGuy  
#38 Posted : 14 June 2015 15:11:23(UTC)
DumbGuy

United States   
Joined: 25/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 194
Location: Tennessee, USA
Originally Posted by: witzlerh Go to Quoted Post
95% of the time with these switch motors, the end contact relays have burn out. There are some excellent posts in this forum (perhaps a YouTube video?) on how to jumper those relays to get many more years life out of them. I have done this to some of my motors and now some more recently purchased motors are showing the same thing. . . . . .

The repair entails getting the motors out and bending back the metal clips carefully to get the cover off, then you solder a bit of wire to jumper the end relays, put the cover back on, test the motor and re install. About 5 min per motor after you do the first one.

Thanks, Witzlerh. I've had similar problems with several 74490 and 74491 motors.

There is a 4-1/2 minute YouTube video (Search for "Marklin 74490 After Repair") that appears to show the repair procedure you've described. Two questions: (1) Does the video correctly show the procedure?; and (2) Is it the same for both 74490 and 74491 motors?

Though it seems a fairly simple procedure, I've not yet tried it & would appreciate a confirmation that it's correctly shown before I do.

Thanks again -- Richard
Long-time analog user, collector & tinkerer.
Discovered digital & began conversion a few years ago.
C-Track, CS2 Carpetbahn built, taken-down, rebuilt, etc.
Username reflects how much I still have to learn.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by DumbGuy
Offline witzlerh  
#39 Posted : 15 June 2015 04:52:20(UTC)
witzlerh

Canada   
Joined: 25/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 416
Location: Sherwood Park, AB, Canada
Hmm The video shows the work involved to get it open and closed correctly.
I would not use solder as wire as it is brittle and not as conductive as a short piece of wire. I would use a small diameter solid wire. It would use less heat too.

Only the ends need to be jumpered, not the middle contact like the video showed but it should not connected to anything. The solder "wire" can only go so far so the video showed it resting on the middle contact.

Edited by user 15 June 2015 17:11:29(UTC)  | Reason: spelling and clarification

Harald
CS2 DB & Canadian Era 3-6
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by witzlerh
Offline Danlake  
#40 Posted : 15 June 2015 08:31:08(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,501
Hi all,

This is how I did it on 74491.

All my +40 turnouts have now been shorted and working fine again.

I also apply some liquid isolation tape, as when you put the wire piece it may get in contact with the black metal housing of the mechanism.

If you are using digital to control them - you might as well start sooner than later to do this modification. It will fail eventually..

UserPostedImage

Brgds - Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Danlake
Offline DumbGuy  
#41 Posted : 15 June 2015 14:06:24(UTC)
DumbGuy

United States   
Joined: 25/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 194
Location: Tennessee, USA
Originally Posted by: Danlake Go to Quoted Post
This is how I did it on 74491.

All my +40 turnouts have now been shorted and working fine again.

I also apply some liquid isolation tape, as when you put the wire piece it may get in contact with the black metal housing of the mechanism.

If you are using digital to control them - you might as well start sooner than later to do this modification. It will fail eventually..

Brgds - Lasse

Witzlerh & Lasse,

Thanks for your advice. I have 20+ motors, of which 5 have failed, so will modify all to avoid more eventual failures. Since my layout (all digital) is down for the summer, the time's right for the fix before I rebuild. I won't start for a few weeks, and may try the procedure shown in the video on a failed 74490 after comparing more closely with your photo. (I can always unsolder if needed.)

I'll post results after I finish in a month or so.

Regards -- Richard


Long-time analog user, collector & tinkerer.
Discovered digital & began conversion a few years ago.
C-Track, CS2 Carpetbahn built, taken-down, rebuilt, etc.
Username reflects how much I still have to learn.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by DumbGuy
Offline river6109  
#42 Posted : 15 June 2015 14:16:57(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,076
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Richard,

if you read my post you will find the more heat you apply to these micro switches the more chances you've got they will fail

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by river6109
Offline river6109  
#43 Posted : 16 June 2015 04:40:18(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,076
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
I've just received another email from my friend in Berlin, the tests results he has sent to Märklin earned him an unexpected gift (47040) and he was over the moon for recognizing his input to solve the problem with the turnout mechanism (double switch).
he and I am mystified that no one else in the past has come up with a solution and especially within the compound of the Märklin factory(s), so in future we will see what they come up with.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by river6109
Offline Joseph Meiring  
#44 Posted : 17 June 2015 11:16:17(UTC)
Joseph Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,157
Location: Western Cape Cape Town
What a beautiful gift!!!
Thanks for all your input John...
Joe
Offline Dreadnought  
#45 Posted : 17 June 2015 14:50:33(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 397
Location: Niagara, Ontario
At the risk of being boring, number 8 failed last night.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Dreadnought
Offline Joseph Meiring  
#46 Posted : 17 June 2015 16:47:41(UTC)
Joseph Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,157
Location: Western Cape Cape Town
Originally Posted by: Dreadnought Go to Quoted Post
At the risk of being boring, number 8 failed last night.

...like the movie: "The never ending Story"...Sad
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Joseph Meiring
Offline Dreadnought  
#47 Posted : 17 June 2015 20:06:51(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 397
Location: Niagara, Ontario
Yes indeed Joe, Only 19 left to go then I have to virtually rebuild the layout !!
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Dreadnought
Offline Drongo  
#48 Posted : 20 June 2015 07:05:08(UTC)
Drongo

Australia   
Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,054
Location: Sydney, NSW
I finally got around to gathering all my new 74991 motors that have been replaced my Marklin.

Wait for it !!!!!

51


YES that's right - FIFTY ONE

Now what do I do with them? Any suggestions - no rude one please, I'm already accommodating a Marklin 37423 another piece of junk made in China.

Regards
Greg
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
Website - www.simplesite.com/gregstrain
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Drongo
Offline river6109  
#49 Posted : 20 June 2015 07:48:32(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,076
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Drongo Go to Quoted Post
I finally got around to gathering all my new 74991 motors that have been replaced my Marklin.

Wait for it !!!!!

51


YES that's right - FIFTY ONE

Now what do I do with them? Any suggestions - no rude one please, I'm already accommodating a Marklin 37423 another piece of junk made in China.

Regards
Greg


Greg, do you think you can reach 100, you may qualify for the Guinness book of records, I know its not a laughing matter.

What;s the matter with your Marklin 37423 ?


John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline H0  
#50 Posted : 20 June 2015 08:44:19(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,751
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Drongo Go to Quoted Post
I'm already accommodating a Marklin 37423 another piece of junk made in China.
Have you seen a "Made in China" sticker or are you just guessing it was made there?

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Users browsing this topic
OceanSpiders 2.0
2 Pages12>
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2020, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 1.692 seconds.