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Offline elite194  
#1 Posted : 22 May 2015 14:47:12(UTC)
elite194

United States   
Joined: 22/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 7
Location: North Dakota, Fargo
A friend of mine had a Marklin layout built using C Track and the system in the picture below. He called me to install the system and complete the electrical work. I've never worked with AC trains before and I don't really know how to troubleshoot the layout. The first thing I did was install a "K" plug onto the adapter cable which connects between 60065 and 60113. Using my multimeter I confirmed that the output at the plug is 20 volts. Next I connected 1 set of feeder wires to the 60113 and powered it up. the Mobile Station gives the correct readings.

So what my friend had done was send three locomotives to Reynaulds to have DCC installed. These locos are 3085, 3106, 3308. When I placed the 3308 on the track and used the find function, it was detected as DCC. When I tried to move the loco, it had a faint buzzing sound and no movement. The same thing goes for the 3106. The 3085 was detected as DCC and it's functions work and it can make it all the way around the layout, but can't switch direction and doesn't appear to have any speed control plus it stalls about every 8 seconds. Also I tested another locomotive from his other layout and it runs for exactly 8 seconds then the stop light comes on. Each time I turn off the stop light it will go another 8 seconds, it's probably not DCC at all, but it at least confirms that all the track is powered.

There are lots more feeder wires that I'll hookup once I have the system figured out.

What I'd like are some troubleshooting tips. I can post pictures of things that need an expert eye.

Some things to know: none of the locos are in the database, all detect as DCC, none as MFX - I removed the shell from 3106 and the part label is missing from the decoder (of course) so I can't positively identify the decoders

Here is the Mobile Station setup I'm working with (before I attached the plug to the adapter)

Marklin Mobile Station initial components
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Online H0  
#2 Posted : 22 May 2015 15:18:09(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,602
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: elite194 Go to Quoted Post
Each time I turn off the stop light it will go another 8 seconds
Make sure there are no radio interference suppressors in the feeder tracks or anywhere else on the layout. Any capacitors or the 74046 devices have to be removed. They will lead to overload on a digital layout.

Only have a single loco on the layout when you invoke Detect Loco.

DCC is DCC, two-rail or three-rail track makes no difference here.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline elite194  
#3 Posted : 22 May 2015 15:56:53(UTC)
elite194

United States   
Joined: 22/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 7
Location: North Dakota, Fargo
OK, there are no radio interference suppressors anywhere of the layout. There are no capacitors or 74046 suppressors anywhere. Only 1 locomotive at a time is being tested and when I use "find" each of them detects as DCC and not MFX. But still 2 of them don't move and none of the functions do anything, no lights or sound. The 3085 has lights, sound, horn and will move forward only and no speed control...
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Offline danmarklinman  
#4 Posted : 22 May 2015 16:42:41(UTC)
danmarklinman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 18/10/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,324
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!
Originally Posted by: elite194 Go to Quoted Post
Each time I turn off the stop light it will go another 8 seconds
Make sure there are no radio interference suppressors in the feeder tracks or anywhere else on the layout. Any capacitors or the 74046 devices have to be removed. They will lead to overload on a digital layout.

Only have a single loco on the layout when you invoke Detect Loco.

DCC is DCC, two-rail or three-rail track makes no difference here.


Hi does that mean i should not have Marklin feeder track 2292 on my layout thenConfused . My layout is Marklin digital MFX ect ect.
Should i remove the capacitor??
danmarklinman attached the following image(s):
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Offline Goofy  
#5 Posted : 22 May 2015 19:15:34(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,574
Originally Posted by: danmarklinman Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!
Originally Posted by: elite194 Go to Quoted Post
Each time I turn off the stop light it will go another 8 seconds
Make sure there are no radio interference suppressors in the feeder tracks or anywhere else on the layout. Any capacitors or the 74046 devices have to be removed. They will lead to overload on a digital layout.

Only have a single loco on the layout when you invoke Detect Loco.

DCC is DCC, two-rail or three-rail track makes no difference here.


Hi does that mean i should not have Marklin feeder track 2292 on my layout thenConfused . My layout is Marklin digital MFX ect ect.
Should i remove the capacitor??


YES!!

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Goofy  
#6 Posted : 22 May 2015 19:21:16(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,574
Originally Posted by: elite194 Go to Quoted Post
A friend of mine had a Marklin layout built using C Track and the system in the picture below. He called me to install the system and complete the electrical work. I've never worked with AC trains before and I don't really know how to troubleshoot the layout. The first thing I did was install a "K" plug onto the adapter cable which connects between 60065 and 60113. Using my multimeter I confirmed that the output at the plug is 20 volts. Next I connected 1 set of feeder wires to the 60113 and powered it up. the Mobile Station gives the correct readings.

So what my friend had done was send three locomotives to Reynaulds to have DCC installed. These locos are 3085, 3106, 3308. When I placed the 3308 on the track and used the find function, it was detected as DCC. When I tried to move the loco, it had a faint buzzing sound and no movement. The same thing goes for the 3106. The 3085 was detected as DCC and it's functions work and it can make it all the way around the layout, but can't switch direction and doesn't appear to have any speed control plus it stalls about every 8 seconds. Also I tested another locomotive from his other layout and it runs for exactly 8 seconds then the stop light comes on. Each time I turn off the stop light it will go another 8 seconds, it's probably not DCC at all, but it at least confirms that all the track is powered.

There are lots more feeder wires that I'll hookup once I have the system figured out.

What I'd like are some troubleshooting tips. I can post pictures of things that need an expert eye.

Some things to know: none of the locos are in the database, all detect as DCC, none as MFX - I removed the shell from 3106 and the part label is missing from the decoder (of course) so I can't positively identify the decoders

Here is the Mobile Station setup I'm working with (before I attached the plug to the adapter)

Marklin Mobile Station initial components


First make sure to accept what kind of protocol you need in the MS2.
If you use DCC,enable it at the MS2.
Of course can you use mixed protocol with mfx,DCC and MM.
I use MS2 and always choise first what protocol i decides to control my layout.
Right now i have two rail layout and use DCC.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline Shamu  
#7 Posted : 23 May 2015 06:56:48(UTC)
Shamu

Australia   
Joined: 12/07/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,068
Location: In a building site in Yeppoon
Just a silly thought but are the track wires connected the right way around....... recall some strange things have been known to happen when they are reversed.
Sad when its cheaper to buy a new 29640 starter set from Germany than a CS2 on its own in Oz, welcome to the joys of Marklin down under .
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H0
Online H0  
#8 Posted : 23 May 2015 08:07:35(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,602
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: elite194 Go to Quoted Post
There are lots more feeder wires that I'll hookup once I have the system figured out.
At this stage it might be better to connect just a short plain piece of track to the trackbox - and nothing else. Until locos operate properly. Devices installed in the layout may interfere, so try step by step.

You have "unknown" locos with "unknown" decoders. Makes it a bit difficult to help.

Which software version does the MS2 have? 1.81 or higher should be fine.

Freshly converted DCC locos should have address 3. If they changed the address during the conversion, the current address should be included in the documentation.

When you put a loco on the track (one that doesn't run off immediately) and call detect loco a few times, you should get the same result each time (e.g. "DCC-3"). If you get a different address each time, then the MS2 cannot read the decoder properly.
In that case, create a loco manually in the MS2 with address 3 and try the loco. If the loco does not respond, change the address to something different (maybe 5) - the MS2 should write the address into the decoder now. Try again.

Locos that run off immediately may be analogue or may have a decoder that incorrectly assumes analogue operation. A picture of the decoder might help in that case.
And with the other cases, too.

Shamu is right: red wire connects to B, brown wire connects to 0 (assuming you have C track). Red = centre rail, brown = outer rails.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline elite194  
#9 Posted : 23 May 2015 15:11:12(UTC)
elite194

United States   
Joined: 22/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 7
Location: North Dakota, Fargo
The brown wire is connected to the center rail and the red is ground...

When detecting loco's I get DCC-0 on the 3 locos that were done by Reynaulds...

I'll post a photo of the decoders today
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Offline elite194  
#10 Posted : 23 May 2015 15:23:46(UTC)
elite194

United States   
Joined: 22/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 7
Location: North Dakota, Fargo
Another question I have is how can I use my multimeter to test the track to make sure the track is in fact wired with the hot lead to the center and the ground to the rails?
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#11 Posted : 23 May 2015 16:47:54(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,909
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: elite194 Go to Quoted Post
The brown wire is connected to the center rail and the red is ground...

When detecting loco's I get DCC-0 on the 3 locos that were done by Reynaulds...

I'll post a photo of the decoders today


No that is the wrong way around, the red wire needs to go to the centre studs, and the brown wire to the rails.

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Offline elite194  
#12 Posted : 23 May 2015 16:50:38(UTC)
elite194

United States   
Joined: 22/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 7
Location: North Dakota, Fargo
It's c-track so I think I have it the way you said actually, but I'm going to post a picture to make sure it's correct
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Online H0  
#13 Posted : 23 May 2015 17:30:45(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,602
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: elite194 Go to Quoted Post
When detecting loco's I get DCC-0 on the 3 locos that were done by Reynaulds...
That's a clear indication that automatic detection didn't work. DCC address range is 1 through 10239. This also means you cannot read CVs from these decoders with the MS2.

So adding a loco with address 3 is worth a try.

Do you have another DCC controller around you could use for a test? To read CVs? CV 8 will return the maker of the decoder. But alas the MS2 cannot read it in your case.

BTW: For DCC, mfx, and newer MM decoders it makes no difference whether red and brown are swapped. Only older MM decoders will fail.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline sjlauritsen  
#14 Posted : 23 May 2015 17:39:59(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Are there, by any chance, some accessory decoders connected to the track somewhere (e.g. decoders for turnouts underneath the roadbed). If that is the case detection will not work, because it will see these decoders and consider the accessory decoders as well. This will cause some weird response from the Mobile Station - including the "DCC-0" issue. It may also happen if more than one locomotive is on the track while using the find-function.
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
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Offline elite194  
#15 Posted : 23 May 2015 21:02:27(UTC)
elite194

United States   
Joined: 22/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 7
Location: North Dakota, Fargo
No accessories have been connected yet....here's a photo of some readings from the MS:

Mobile Station readouts

Here is a photo of the one of the decoders:

Lok DCC-0

The wiring is connected red to red and brown to brown...The layout is the Nock Silvretta with 2 extensions and here is a photo:

Noch Silvretta

I tested a Locomotive 37181 and it was in the database, but it didn't do anything when I tried it except a very low hum.

Like I said earlier, the 3085 has working sound and will travel for short distances all the way round the layout, but cannot go in reverse at all and it detects as DCC-0
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Online H0  
#16 Posted : 23 May 2015 21:11:17(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,602
Location: DE-NW
Disconnect the MS2 from the layout and try with just a plain piece of track.
37181 will not run when red and brown are swapped. So double check that, too.

A very low hum? Is she humming always? Or only when you try to run her? May the humming comes from the decoder and means nothing, maybe the humming comes from the motor.
Maybe correct address, but locos suffers from HOS - hardened oil syndrome.

The decoder doesn't look familiar to me. Most likely neither ESU nor Märklin. No paperwork for the converted locos? No decoder brand on the invoice?
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#17 Posted : 23 May 2015 21:12:17(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,909
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: elite194 Go to Quoted Post
No accessories have been connected yet....here's a photo of some readings from the MS:

Mobile Station readouts


I tested a Locomotive 37181 and it was in the database, but it didn't do anything when I tried it except a very low hum.

Like I said earlier, the 3085 has working sound and will travel for short distances all the way round the layout, but cannot go in reverse at all and it detects as DCC-0


I think you should turn off the DCC mode - on the photo showing the mfx-DCC-MM2 instead select the one below it.

Note that the decoder normally fitted to Marklin locomotives is NOT DCC - the 37181 decoder is MM2 protocol and will NOT be detected. As it doesn't run when you select it from the database it sounds like its address has been changed. You will need to take the body off the loco or the tender (I can't remember where the decoder is fitted) and change the address on the miniature switch panel. The instruction leaflet that comes with the loco will tell you how they should be set for the default address.

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Offline elite194  
#18 Posted : 23 May 2015 21:24:50(UTC)
elite194

United States   
Joined: 22/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 7
Location: North Dakota, Fargo
The decoder in the picture is from 3106 or 3308 (they both have the same one) and it was recently installed by Reynaulds. I found 37181 in a box of an old Marklin DCC system that was never installed on another Noch layout. Unfortunately the invoice for any of the stuff can't be located so I won't know anything until I can call Reynaulds and find out what they did.
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