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Offline PeFu  
#1 Posted : 03 April 2015 20:52:06(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 896
Hi all,

Still investigating if K tracks could be an alternative for C tracks, in visible areas... Servos for turnouts and soldering seems to be under control. But: How about s88 feedback? For M tracks, I used centre rail current detection, using the LDT RM-GB-8-N. Using K tracks, it could be easier using traditional contact tracks, based on feedback from an outer section that has been cut on each edge, e.g. according to this description:

http://members.ozemail.c...solder_track_cutting.pdf

Challenge: Ground (brown) will only be possible from the opposite outer rail. I like to have long contact track sections. Question: Would there be any way to also provide ground from the "cut" section?

BigGrin Peter
Inspired by Swiss railways SBB and BLS | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold V9
Youtube Channel for the Andreasburg-Mattiasberg layout
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 03 April 2015 21:08:26(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,146
Location: DE-NW
Hi!

Current detection can also be used with K track.

Some people install diodes so the isolated rail has at least part of the power, thus reducing contact problems.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline French_Fabrice  
#3 Posted : 03 April 2015 21:13:11(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,357
Location: Lyon, France
Hi Peter,

Why do you want to "cut" rail ? It's much more easy to use track insulators PECO SL-11...

See there: https://www.marklin-user...d-tricks.aspx#post456336
and as Tom said about diodes, see also there: https://www.marklin-user...d-tricks.aspx#post467966

Cheers
Fabrice
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by French_Fabrice
Offline PeFu  
#4 Posted : 03 April 2015 21:52:00(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 896
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Current detection can also be used with K track.

I understand that e.g. the LDT module I used earlier can be used. Contact tracks would, however, provide a cheaper solution...

Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Why do you want to "cut" rail ? It's much more easy to use track insulators PECO SL-11... See there: https://www.marklin-user...d-tricks.aspx#post456336

Thanks! For me, the major reason for having K tracks would be the flex track. But there will still be sections where these insulators may be used.

Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
and as Tom said about diodes, see also there: https://www.marklin-user...d-tricks.aspx#post467966

This is great! Does this mean that same level of "ground" will be provided from both rails?

BigGrin Peter
Inspired by Swiss railways SBB and BLS | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold V9
Youtube Channel for the Andreasburg-Mattiasberg layout
Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 03 April 2015 21:56:58(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,146
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Peter Funck Go to Quoted Post
This is great! Does this mean that same level of "ground" will be provided from both rails?
Yes. If the loco only has contact to the insulated rail it should get enough power to move the loco - until it gets power from the other rail again.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline Justatool  
#6 Posted : 20 January 2019 05:35:50(UTC)
Justatool

United States   
Joined: 20/11/2017(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: California, Cupertino
Hi Fabrice < also: anyone who can help here please do :) >

I am simply amazed at your knowledge and awesome layout(s). Learning a lot from ur posts - never stop posting!

I have a very basic question. I recently started using K-track (I find it most realistic). However I have trouble creating isolating sections using 7522 (very unreliable). Is there a trick I am missing? Is there another more reliable way to isolate center rail on K-Tracks without using 7522?

(K-track appears to have the least 'information' available on the internet).

Thanks, in advance to all, really appreciate it.
--Atul
Offline applor  
#7 Posted : 20 January 2019 08:50:19(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,608
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: Justatool Go to Quoted Post
Hi Fabrice < also: anyone who can help here please do :) >

I am simply amazed at your knowledge and awesome layout(s). Learning a lot from ur posts - never stop posting!

I have a very basic question. I recently started using K-track (I find it most realistic). However I have trouble creating isolating sections using 7522 (very unreliable). Is there a trick I am missing? Is there another more reliable way to isolate center rail on K-Tracks without using 7522?

(K-track appears to have the least 'information' available on the internet).

Thanks, in advance to all, really appreciate it.
--Atul


Just cut the copper tabs off underneath with a dremel or fine tooth saw.

Why are you wanting to isolate power sections though?
I would recommend using 3rd rail isolation for feedback rather than power detection.
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
Offline French_Fabrice  
#8 Posted : 20 January 2019 08:58:08(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,357
Location: Lyon, France
Hello Atul,

Well, I must admit that isolating center rail for K tracks can be a bit tricky with 7522...

On my layout, I use this item only when separating sections powered by different boosters, thus only very few 7522 are used.
This is because I don't need to isolate sections for signals, as I'm using a PC automated layout.

Back to the topic:
1- Be sure that each 7522 item is of good quality (have many spare parts at hand), i.e. the plastic is not torn apart, or some bits of plastic are missing thus preventing the isolation
2- When inserting a 7522, don't do it on laid tracks
3- Do the assembly between 2 free track pieces not connected to the layout, and do it with bottom face visible. It allows you to check if the 4 metallic tongues are not connected
4- Check the non-conductivity between the 2 track pieces with an ohm meter
5- When OK, add the 2 ready track pieces to the layout

See doc of 7522: https://static.maerklin....5b26ed90ed1434542174.pdf

Or
- Cut the metallic tongues of one track piece with a small cutting pliers or a Dremel like tool. You don't need anymore 7522.
I know it is a more "definitive" way of doing things... However, the track with removed "B" conductivity can have its "B" conductivity restored by use of item 7595...

Cheers
Fabrice
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by French_Fabrice
Offline Justatool  
#9 Posted : 21 January 2019 00:00:24(UTC)
Justatool

United States   
Joined: 20/11/2017(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: California, Cupertino
Thanks 'applor.'

1) I need to isolate sections for signals is all.

2) There are 4 tabs underneath - looks like the 2 inner tabs go to the center rail. What abt the outer tabs? Should I just cut ff all 4? The 7522 is indeed a very poor design - surprised. Maybe this is why overall K-tracks are not so much in favor even though they appear to be most realistic and least noisy.

3) what do mean: "I would recommend using 3rd rail isolation for feedback rather than power detection."

Thanks again for the help.
--Atul

Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Justatool Go to Quoted Post
Hi Fabrice < also: anyone who can help here please do :) >

I am simply amazed at your knowledge and awesome layout(s). Learning a lot from ur posts - never stop posting!

I have a very basic question. I recently started using K-track (I find it most realistic). However I have trouble creating isolating sections using 7522 (very unreliable). Is there a trick I am missing? Is there another more reliable way to isolate center rail on K-Tracks without using 7522?

(K-track appears to have the least 'information' available on the internet).

Thanks, in advance to all, really appreciate it.
--Atul


Just cut the copper tabs off underneath with a dremel or fine tooth saw.

Why are you wanting to isolate power sections though?
I would recommend using 3rd rail isolation for feedback rather than power detection.


Offline Justatool  
#10 Posted : 21 January 2019 00:04:40(UTC)
Justatool

United States   
Joined: 20/11/2017(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: California, Cupertino
Thanks Fabrice - extremely helpful. After destroying a few 7522 I figured out some of the techniques u described. Damn these little plastic tabs are expensive and poorly designed. All these little things maybe why overall K-tracks are not so much in favor even though they appear to be most realistic and least noisy. I just started using them for the first time.

Also, there are 4 tabs underneath - looks like the 2 inner tabs go to the center rail. What abt the outer tabs? Should I just cut ff all 4? Thsi may be the best, most reliable and cost-effective solution. Other than using software-control.

I know u use software for train control - I hope to get there some day :)

Thanks again for the help.
--Atul

Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post

Hello Atul,

Well, I must admit that isolating center rail for K tracks can be a bit tricky with 7522...

On my layout, I use this item only when separating sections powered by different boosters, thus only very few 7522 are used.
This is because I don't need to isolate sections for signals, as I'm using a PC automated layout.

Back to the topic:
1- Be sure that each 7522 item is of good quality (have many spare parts at hand), i.e. the plastic is not torn apart, or some bits of plastic are missing thus preventing the isolation
2- When inserting a 7522, don't do it on laid tracks
3- Do the assembly between 2 free track pieces not connected to the layout, and do it with bottom face visible. It allows you to check if the 4 metallic tongues are not connected
4- Check the non-conductivity between the 2 track pieces with an ohm meter
5- When OK, add the 2 ready track pieces to the layout

See doc of 7522: https://static.maerklin....5b26ed90ed1434542174.pdf

Or
- Cut the metallic tongues of one track piece with a small cutting pliers or a Dremel like tool. You don't need anymore 7522.
I know it is a more "definitive" way of doing things... However, the track with removed "B" conductivity can have its "B" conductivity restored by use of item 7595...

Cheers
Fabrice


Offline applor  
#11 Posted : 21 January 2019 02:56:10(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,608
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: Justatool Go to Quoted Post
Thanks 'applor.'

1) I need to isolate sections for signals is all.

2) There are 4 tabs underneath - looks like the 2 inner tabs go to the center rail. What abt the outer tabs? Should I just cut ff all 4? The 7522 is indeed a very poor design - surprised. Maybe this is why overall K-tracks are not so much in favor even though they appear to be most realistic and least noisy.

3) what do mean: "I would recommend using 3rd rail isolation for feedback rather than power detection."

Thanks again for the help.
--Atul



1) So you are building an analogue layout then and not digital? Fabrice and I both have digital layouts with sensors to allow for computer automation with Rocrail.

2) Yes all 4 tabs. K tracks are definitely favored for those after a more realistic layout, though some of the accessories are average - far more reliable to just cut the metal tabs (leave the plastic pieces that lock the track together). I never used or had a need for 7522 tabs. Remember those sort of accessories are designed by Marklin so that they are only temporary and not permanent (like cutting the tabs) which is why they are often unreliable.

3) I had thought you were wanting to isolate power for detection, rather than cutting power for an analogue layout to stop a train at a signal.
If you are doing a digital layout with sensors, you isolate one of the two rails to allow for train detection (the wheels short the two rails when the train drives through the isolated section)
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
Offline Justatool  
#12 Posted : 21 January 2019 03:22:49(UTC)
Justatool

United States   
Joined: 20/11/2017(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: California, Cupertino
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Justatool Go to Quoted Post
Thanks 'applor.'

1) I need to isolate sections for signals is all.

2) There are 4 tabs underneath - looks like the 2 inner tabs go to the center rail. What abt the outer tabs? Should I just cut ff all 4? The 7522 is indeed a very poor design - surprised. Maybe this is why overall K-tracks are not so much in favor even though they appear to be most realistic and least noisy.

3) what do mean: "I would recommend using 3rd rail isolation for feedback rather than power detection."

Thanks again for the help.
--Atul



1) So you are building an analogue layout then and not digital? Fabrice and I both have digital layouts with sensors to allow for computer automation with Rocrail.

2) Yes all 4 tabs. K tracks are definitely favored for those after a more realistic layout, though some of the accessories are average - far more reliable to just cut the metal tabs (leave the plastic pieces that lock the track together). I never used or had a need for 7522 tabs. Remember those sort of accessories are designed by Marklin so that they are only temporary and not permanent (like cutting the tabs) which is why they are often unreliable.

3) I had thought you were wanting to isolate power for detection, rather than cutting power for an analogue layout to stop a train at a signal.
If you are doing a digital layout with sensors, you isolate one of the two rails to allow for train detection (the wheels short the two rails when the train drives through the isolated section)



Thanks applor. Very helpful. I think on point #3 you mean "contact" tracks, right? Yes I use those as well. So on digital you don't need track isolation?

Indeed learnt quickly that cutting the tabs is definitely the way to go. Some day I hope to go to a total digital layout - right now time is an issue so I am just playing around. Skill will ALWAYS be an issue! If I may ask, you use Rocrail for automation, and did you use any software for layout planning? With RocRail do you still need the Marklin CS2/CS3? Or u control directly from a laptop? Lastly I am curious if u use K-track exclusively? I have a boatload of M- and C- track but I really like K-track even though I avoided it till now due to its lack of popularity. Strange as they are overall a superior experience.

--Atul
Offline DaleSchultz  
#13 Posted : 21 January 2019 15:33:47(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,717
here is how I do the cutting and laying of K-track:

https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com/2005/07/laying-k-track.html

Like most things, once you have done a couple it gets really easy....
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline Justatool  
#14 Posted : 21 January 2019 16:36:09(UTC)
Justatool

United States   
Joined: 20/11/2017(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: California, Cupertino
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
here is how I do the cutting and laying of K-track:

https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com/2005/07/laying-k-track.html

Like most things, once you have done a couple it gets really easy....


Thanks Dale. Looks like some dexterity is needed. Will take ur word that it gets easier :)
--Atul
Offline applor  
#15 Posted : 21 January 2019 23:01:38(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,608
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: Justatool Go to Quoted Post


Thanks applor. Very helpful. I think on point #3 you mean "contact" tracks, right? Yes I use those as well. So on digital you don't need track isolation?

Indeed learnt quickly that cutting the tabs is definitely the way to go. Some day I hope to go to a total digital layout - right now time is an issue so I am just playing around. Skill will ALWAYS be an issue! If I may ask, you use Rocrail for automation, and did you use any software for layout planning? With RocRail do you still need the Marklin CS2/CS3? Or u control directly from a laptop? Lastly I am curious if u use K-track exclusively? I have a boatload of M- and C- track but I really like K-track even though I avoided it till now due to its lack of popularity. Strange as they are overall a superior experience.

--Atul


Hi Atul,

No you don't need to isolate power (3rd rail) on a digital layout (unless its very large and you need boosters but this can be avoided by powering decoders/lights/accessories separately).
If you want to have automation on your digital layout you need detection using S88 modules which is done by simply isolating one of the two rails - either by plastic rail joiners or if that is not possible you cut the rail.
You can do detection by isolating the 3rd rail if you wanted.

I used a program called 'AnyRail' to design my layout. There are many available, SCARM is also popular.

PC train control software (such as Rocrail) require a controller to send the signals onto the track. I use a CS2 but also because I want and need to drive trains manually (you can drive manually from the PC too though).
LDT have a product called a DicoStation which is a controller with no screen or throttle or anything, it works purely as the intermediate between PC software and your layout.

I built my track exclusively with K track. My previous layout was M track and my father owns C track, so I am familiar with all track types.
Both K and C track have their merits and drawbacks.

K track gives far more track laying flexibility and its appearance is more realistic due to manual ballasting. It's the only option that gives you the flex track too. K track is easy to install servos for turnouts.
K has the turntable (though a C track turntable is announced, yet to be seen) and the wide DKW switch.

C track can be made to look realistic if you ballast over the plastic (after painting the rails etc)
You can also incorporate flex track by using the C to K track adaptors though you are far more limited in where you can apply flex track due to the limitation of using adaptors.
C track has more reliable wide radius turnouts and has wide radius curved turnouts.

If you have C track as well it might be worth using it in the hidden staging areas.

You can see my layout here if you want:
https://www.marklin-user...-Oct-2018--masts-signals

The design changed countless times and I learnt so much since I first started so you might want to start at the last page and work back.
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
Offline Justatool  
#16 Posted : 22 January 2019 06:44:13(UTC)
Justatool

United States   
Joined: 20/11/2017(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: California, Cupertino
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Justatool Go to Quoted Post


Thanks applor. Very helpful. I think on point #3 you mean "contact" tracks, right? Yes I use those as well. So on digital you don't need track isolation?

Indeed learnt quickly that cutting the tabs is definitely the way to go. Some day I hope to go to a total digital layout - right now time is an issue so I am just playing around. Skill will ALWAYS be an issue! If I may ask, you use Rocrail for automation, and did you use any software for layout planning? With RocRail do you still need the Marklin CS2/CS3? Or u control directly from a laptop? Lastly I am curious if u use K-track exclusively? I have a boatload of M- and C- track but I really like K-track even though I avoided it till now due to its lack of popularity. Strange as they are overall a superior experience.

--Atul


Hi Atul,

No you don't need to isolate power (3rd rail) on a digital layout (unless its very large and you need boosters but this can be avoided by powering decoders/lights/accessories separately).
If you want to have automation on your digital layout you need detection using S88 modules which is done by simply isolating one of the two rails - either by plastic rail joiners or if that is not possible you cut the rail.
You can do detection by isolating the 3rd rail if you wanted.

I used a program called 'AnyRail' to design my layout. There are many available, SCARM is also popular.

PC train control software (such as Rocrail) require a controller to send the signals onto the track. I use a CS2 but also because I want and need to drive trains manually (you can drive manually from the PC too though).
LDT have a product called a DicoStation which is a controller with no screen or throttle or anything, it works purely as the intermediate between PC software and your layout.

I built my track exclusively with K track. My previous layout was M track and my father owns C track, so I am familiar with all track types.
Both K and C track have their merits and drawbacks.

K track gives far more track laying flexibility and its appearance is more realistic due to manual ballasting. It's the only option that gives you the flex track too. K track is easy to install servos for turnouts.
K has the turntable (though a C track turntable is announced, yet to be seen) and the wide DKW switch.

C track can be made to look realistic if you ballast over the plastic (after painting the rails etc)
You can also incorporate flex track by using the C to K track adaptors though you are far more limited in where you can apply flex track due to the limitation of using adaptors.
C track has more reliable wide radius turnouts and has wide radius curved turnouts.

If you have C track as well it might be worth using it in the hidden staging areas.

You can see my layout here if you want:
https://www.marklin-user...-Oct-2018--masts-signals

The design changed countless times and I learnt so much since I first started so you might want to start at the last page and work back.


Hi applor:
Wow! That is an amazing time-lapse view of your incredible layout. I may email you and Fabrice privately to ask how you guys got this far with such complex layouts - looks like a lifetime of work that requires a lot of skill :).

Thanks much for sharing your knowledge/experience.
--Atul
Offline applor  
#17 Posted : 23 January 2019 01:54:46(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,608
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: Justatool Go to Quoted Post


Hi applor:
Wow! That is an amazing time-lapse view of your incredible layout. I may email you and Fabrice privately to ask how you guys got this far with such complex layouts - looks like a lifetime of work that requires a lot of skill :).

Thanks much for sharing your knowledge/experience.
--Atul


No problem Atul. My layout is 3 years work so far (though a lot of extra time making plan changes) with limited time due to new family (though I used to get far more than I do now with 2 kids)

While it's a fair bit of work so far, as long as you keep at it. Certainly not a lifetime yet - though by the time I finish scenery which will be the big time sink.
A lot of learning and help from other members. A lot of members assisted me along the way which I am thankful for. Alsterstreek helped a lot with prototypical planning.
Fabrice is a top guy, he's been helping me with Rocrail lately.

If you don't know, just ask! If you're building a layout I suggest you start a new thread in the My Layout section and post your questions in there.
Take your time with planning to get it right. My track design went through 30+ iterations before I got it right (as good as possible for the space) and if I had rushed I would be regretting it a lot!
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by applor
Offline cookee_nz  
#18 Posted : 29 January 2019 05:11:58(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,626
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Just thought I would add this little info sheet regarding the connectors for K-track using the 900mm flexi track - it shows very clearly the characteristics of the copper track joiner tabs

2205-Flex(0181).jpg

Might be helpful to visualise what can't be seen BigGrin
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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