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Offline pdiamd  
#1 Posted : 15 September 2014 19:02:43(UTC)
pdiamd

United States   
Joined: 21/04/2011(UTC)
Posts: 26
Location: South New Jersey
Does anyone know where this switch or lever is on this model? The locomotive runs great from the power from center stud of the track. I just can't find where to switch over to catenary power. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Pat
Pat
CS2...MS2...Marklin Digital and Analog....Steam and Diesel Era III & IV...Insider Member
Favorites Br01, Br23, German and Swiss Crocodiles
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 15 September 2014 19:19:58(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,498
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: pdiamd Go to Quoted Post
Does anyone know where this switch or lever is on this model?
LOL

Product database says: "The locomotive has 2 mechanically working pantographs (not wired for catenary operation)."
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline RayF  
#3 Posted : 15 September 2014 19:27:10(UTC)
RayF

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Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,419
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Hi Pat,

36614 and all similar locomotives from Marklin are not wired to be run from the catenary. It may be possible to re-wire the loco yourself, but I believe the pantographs have plastic parts that won't conduct electricity anyway, so you would need to change them to another type.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline petestra  
#4 Posted : 15 September 2014 19:39:15(UTC)
petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,649
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
Hi Pat, I don't think it could be too difficult. If you know or can find out from M which solder point to use you can solder a wire and lead it

to the screw which holds the pantograph from underneath the lok shell? Peter Mellow
Offline RayF  
#5 Posted : 15 September 2014 19:42:32(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,419
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: petestra Go to Quoted Post
Hi Pat, I don't think it could be too difficult. If you know or can find out from M which solder point to use you can solder a wire and lead it

to the screw which holds the pantograph from underneath the lok shell? Peter Mellow


Peter, is that screw insulated from the body?
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline petestra  
#6 Posted : 15 September 2014 21:00:57(UTC)
petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,649
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: petestra Go to Quoted Post
Hi Pat, I don't think it could be too difficult. If you know or can find out from M which solder point to use you can solder a wire and lead it

to the screw which holds the pantograph from underneath the lok shell? Peter Mellow


Peter, is that screw insulated from the body?


Oh, yes, Ray. Sorry. Yes it can be if the shell is metal or if the shell is plastic it is not necessary. If the shell is metal one can use a small piece of cardboard

or similar between the screw and body. I did this to replace the worn brown paper strip on my SBB 3050. Peter Smile
Offline mike c  
#7 Posted : 16 September 2014 05:41:20(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,342
Location: Montreal, QC
The Hobby (basic) Traxx models have a cheap decoder and are not designed to be used with power from the catenary because intermittent power supply can damage the decoder, cause the decoder to switch into program mode, reverse, or otherwise cause problems in operation. The same recommendation is often made for other modern decoders which can be electronically programmed for the same reasons.
I am pretty certain that the pantographs are electrically isolated from the loco shell (roof) so that the loco can be run with pantos up without causing a short. It should be possible to attach an O ring with a contact tab and to run wires to to the other wires You would have to install some kind of switch so that you could select one or the other power source. I know that the Trix circuit board has a socket for ESU type decoders. I do not know whether it also has jumpers for catenary vs track.

Regards

Mike C
Offline pdiamd  
#8 Posted : 18 September 2014 08:34:32(UTC)
pdiamd

United States   
Joined: 21/04/2011(UTC)
Posts: 26
Location: South New Jersey
Thank you everyone for the information. I did send an e-mail to the Maerklin.de web site requesting a diagram on how to wire the pantographs.
Their reply was the locomotive does not provide power to the overhead catenary wire system.
Pat
CS2...MS2...Marklin Digital and Analog....Steam and Diesel Era III & IV...Insider Member
Favorites Br01, Br23, German and Swiss Crocodiles
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H0
Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 18 September 2014 11:13:30(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,498
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: pdiamd Go to Quoted Post
I did send an e-mail to the Maerklin.de web site requesting a diagram on how to wire the pantographs.
Their reply was the locomotive does not provide power to the overhead catenary wire system.
Did you seriously expect a different reply?

Märklin made locos where the decoder had a NEM 652 plug - and the loco instructions say that the decoder can only be replaced at the factory.

Märklin advertised (and still advertise) a loco as having warm white LEDs, but delivered it with yellow LEDs.
I asked them if I could send the loco to Göppingen to have the LEDs swapped - an their reply was "No". I expected that.

Can't harm to ask them.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline RayF  
#10 Posted : 18 September 2014 14:08:30(UTC)
RayF

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Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Hi Pat,

I woudn't expect Marklin to be helpful when asking them how to modify a loco do something it's not designed for. However, don't be discouraged! If it really is important for you that the loco take it's power from the catenary then I'm sure there will be a way to do it.

First of all, decide whether in fact it is necessary. Most users nowadays don't bother with powering the overhead for digital operation. As each loco is addressed individually it doesn't really matter where the power comes from. If you are an analogue user it will be important, as analogue users use the overhead to be able to control one loco independant of another one powered from the track.

If you decide it is necessary, then check whether there is electrical continuity from the catenary wipers to the bottom of the screw that holds the pantograph to the roof of the loco. Also check that the pantograph is isolated from the metal body. If all this is OK then simply add a wire from the power feed that comes in from the third rail slider and make a connection to the screw that holds the pantograph. You may want to add a switch between the two supplies, or simply hard wire the pantograph to the decoder.

Hope this helps.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Oliver SBB-CFF-FFS  
#11 Posted : 18 September 2014 15:49:15(UTC)
Oliver SBB-CFF-FFS

Sweden   
Joined: 22/06/2011(UTC)
Posts: 544
For the sake of the decoder I would not use catenary to power the loco, except if you are running an analog layout.

SBB Era IV - VI
Offline PJMärklin  
#12 Posted : 19 September 2014 08:04:52(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,376
Location: Hobart, Australia
Hello Pat,

If you are running digital, Märklin do not recommend doing this via the caternary.

Regards,

PJ

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Offline RayF  
#13 Posted : 19 September 2014 09:01:31(UTC)
RayF

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Posts: 15,419
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Some of our more vocal members disagree with Marklin's advice on this point, and regularly power their digital locos from the catenary. Some might do so in order that they can remove the pickup slider completely, making the locomotive look more realistic.

I follow Marklin's advice myself. I see no reason to do otherwise.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline sjlauritsen  
#14 Posted : 19 September 2014 10:34:55(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Some might do so in order that they can remove the pickup slider completely, making the locomotive look more realistic.

In that case, some should consider running two-rail. Smile

I think it is a good advise. There is no reason to run with functional overhead wire on a digital layout. Also I would expect that the quality of the digital signal would be greatly reduced on the overhead wire as compared to the track. A poor digital signal can cause all sorts of problems.
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: http://baneforum.dk/
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Offline RayF  
#15 Posted : 19 September 2014 11:31:42(UTC)
RayF

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Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: sjlauritsen Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Some might do so in order that they can remove the pickup slider completely, making the locomotive look more realistic.

In that case, some should consider running two-rail. Smile

I think it is a good advise. There is no reason to run with functional overhead wire on a digital layout. Also I would expect that the quality of the digital signal would be greatly reduced on the overhead wire as compared to the track. A poor digital signal can cause all sorts of problems.


Hi Søren,

I totally agree with you. I was just quoting arguments I've heard pro live catenary. We had this discussion a couple of years ago when I was heavily criticised by a couple of members for defending Marklin's advice.

I love the look of electric locos running under catenary, with the pantographs rising and falling as they follow the wire. Whether the wire is live or not makes no difference to me, it still looks the same.

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Dreadnought  
#16 Posted : 19 September 2014 15:52:34(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 395
Location: Niagara, Ontario
I agree with Ray. I love to see the pantographs moving up and down as the train runs around the layout. Even though I use the CS 2 I have the catenary wired. It provides power to light some of the old restaurant cars. I have on occasion used it to power some of my old analog locomotives which I have converted to digital. After reading this thread I will not longer risk the decoders by doing so.

In my analog days I loved darkening the train room, and running my E 10 with lighted coaches at high speed. I loved seeing the sparks come off the catenary. Henceforth I shall save that for the analog carpetbahn.
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Offline mike c  
#17 Posted : 19 September 2014 18:51:45(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,342
Location: Montreal, QC
The newer decoders can be remotely programmed and intermittent contact, which is much more frequent using the catenary, can trigger the decoder to go into programming mode or otherwise change options that might cause an accident on the track. The older decoders did not have this issue as changes had to physically be made to the decoder/board.

The contact surface of a single pantograph slider is much smaller than the third rail slider and the pantograph might also heat up and this can also damage the wiring and even the decoder itself.

I suspect that the main reason for Maerklin's warning is the first one.

Regards

Mike C
Offline H0  
#18 Posted : 20 September 2014 10:02:48(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
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Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
The newer decoders can be remotely programmed and intermittent contact, which is much more frequent using the catenary, can trigger the decoder to go into programming mode or otherwise change options that might cause an accident on the track.
Is this a fact or is this just speculation?

Here you can find instructions about the new catenary system:
https://www.maerklin.de/...aq/70000_Oberleitung.pdf
(copy URL to address field if link does not work)

Here they write:
"We do not particularly recommend using Märklin Digital as and operating system with the catenary." (sic)
They already wrote something similar in the 6080 decoder manual.

And further:
"Caution:
When using Märklin Systems (Mobile Station or Central Station) as the operating system. In this situation it is not possible to use the catenary to supply power to the electric locomotives."
Note that Mobile Station 2 and Central Station 2 are "Märklin digital" and not "Märklin Systems", but also not "Märklin Digital". It's always nice to have a clear system with clear instructions.


Problem is: Märklin tell us it is not recommended or they tell us it is impossible. They do not tell us the reasons why. This leads to speculation.

Additionally several people reported that they operate their layouts with digital power from the catenary without any problem.

With respect to new decoders: they enter programming mode with a sequence of change direction instructions. I think I never heard that intermittent contact can bring them into programming mode.
And many people have problems with intermittent contact when using the centre rail - due to rusty centre rail or dirty outer rails. Does this lead to decoders being re-programmed? I never heard of that.
No re-programming problem with the 6080 decoder - but it already was not recommended in the days of the 6080 decoder.

Many modern electric locos can still take power from the catenary ex works. So it seems that intermittent contact is not too harmful with analogue operation.

I suspect that bad contact can lead to fast locos not reading any instructions, making them unstoppable. The faster you go, the more problems you will have.
But this is a problem I have also seen with centre rail operation.

There were economised Primex locomotives that could not take power from the catenary ex works. Now we have economised Hobby locos with the same "feature". But the same decoders have also been used in locos that can take power from the catenary.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline mike c  
#19 Posted : 20 September 2014 19:24:08(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,342
Location: Montreal, QC
I have had a few experiences where intermittent contact has put modern ESU type decoders into programming mode, once or twice while moving slowly (stutter) and a few more times during reversing while using a 6021 with dirty track. I think that it is more likely that the intermittent contact from the catenary/pantographs could cause the same problem. There is also the issue of overheating that can occur with use of pantographs under constant voltage. The intermittent or very small contact point (the wiper) can result in heating and the heating will not necessarily be at the point of contact, but will manifest itself at the weakest point in the connection, which could be the wiper, the pantograph itself, the base screw, the contact plate or wire or the PC board. I have seen at least one locomotive with heat damage from a wire/solder point that overheated due to this type of issue. It was my Roco 14178 Re 4/4IV 10101 and the screw at the base of the pantograph overheated, causing the plastic housing around the screw to slightly deform. I had been testing the loco shell on the chassis of a spare similar loco with ESU decoder. The shell had to be scrapped and was replaced by a Sudostbahn Re 446 018 shell ordered from Roco Switzerland. Apparently the pantograph connections were modified on the digitally equipped models, possibly for this reason. My 69525 446 017 Tesa and 446 016 Seedamm locos also have this modified design. I have the three SOB Re 446 for digital use and I still have the other original 14178 (10103) but it is set aside for analog use only.

Regards

Mike C
Offline pdiamd  
#20 Posted : 20 September 2014 21:05:36(UTC)
pdiamd

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Joined: 21/04/2011(UTC)
Posts: 26
Location: South New Jersey
Does information anywhere suggest that running older digital locomotives on a overhead catenary analog track, lead to any problems with pantographs or decodes?

Pat
Pat
CS2...MS2...Marklin Digital and Analog....Steam and Diesel Era III & IV...Insider Member
Favorites Br01, Br23, German and Swiss Crocodiles
Offline mike c  
#21 Posted : 20 September 2014 22:42:10(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,342
Location: Montreal, QC
For analog layouts, the voltage increases and decreases as you adjust the transformer, so the voltage is not constantly at the top of the range, which reduces the risk of overheating of wires, etc and does not have sufficient voltage to induce a decoder into programming mode. It is still possible to cause damage if the transformer is held in the reversing surge position for too long. Under normal operating conditions, there should not be a problem.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline pdiamd  
#22 Posted : 21 September 2014 01:04:04(UTC)
pdiamd

United States   
Joined: 21/04/2011(UTC)
Posts: 26
Location: South New Jersey
Thanks Mike, I appreciate the information. I'm running both a digital and analog layout that is isolated from each other.
Pat
CS2...MS2...Marklin Digital and Analog....Steam and Diesel Era III & IV...Insider Member
Favorites Br01, Br23, German and Swiss Crocodiles
Offline CarlosAlberto  
#23 Posted : 24 September 2014 23:25:07(UTC)
CarlosAlberto

Portugal   
Joined: 04/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 91
Location: Portugal
Hello!

Fortunately, i have as much old catenary and masts as i have the new ones.

This creates me a doubt: is it the old catenary better for the new digital locomotives?


I like to remove the pickup shoe from electric locos and feed them from catenary... (i think there's no need to have a pickup shoe

and a pantograph up at the same time...) (to me this is the true meaning of an electric loco!)


May i conclude from your words that the old wire thickness (in comparison to the new one) is OK for digital locomotives?

Regardless i am feeding all of them from the same cs1.


thank you in advance.
Regards
Carlos
... 51 years living with Marklin at my side.
Offline pdiamd  
#24 Posted : 25 September 2014 00:43:15(UTC)
pdiamd

United States   
Joined: 21/04/2011(UTC)
Posts: 26
Location: South New Jersey
I'm running older digital electrics on m track analog power. I'm using the
Older style catenary lines. I am going to install the newer catenary on my
C track but as stated earlier in this forum, I will just raise the pantograph
because of the constant power to the digital track. Just my take on the
Info talked about above. As far as which catenary is better, I think I would
go with the new because it looks more realistic.
Pat
CS2...MS2...Marklin Digital and Analog....Steam and Diesel Era III & IV...Insider Member
Favorites Br01, Br23, German and Swiss Crocodiles
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Offline CarlosAlberto  
#25 Posted : 25 September 2014 01:21:47(UTC)
CarlosAlberto

Portugal   
Joined: 04/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 91
Location: Portugal
Originally Posted by: pdiamd Go to Quoted Post
... As far as which catenary is better, I think I would
go with the new because it looks more realistic.



Hi, Pat.


Like you, i think i think the new catenary is much more realistic than the previous (indeed!)...

But if the old is more efective with recent\new electric locomotives, i will have no mind conflicts to chose this tipe.


Seeing 3rd rail thickness versus old catenary they are very similar...


I am starting to think that i am going to choose this (the old one) option...


Smile
Regards
Carlos
... 51 years living with Marklin at my side.
Offline RayF  
#26 Posted : 25 September 2014 09:48:08(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,419
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I think the probems that may be associated with running digital locos from the overhead are not dependant on the thickness of the wire, but more on the reliability of the contact, which is more a function of the contact surface area of the pantograph wiper than of the size of the wire. I therefore don't think the old catenary is any better than the new for running digital.

My main concern about the old catenary is the totally unrealistic way the wires curve in the air! It has bugged me from the first time I saw it illustrated in a Marklin catalogue, and it has always put me off installing it. Recently I installed Viessmann catenary which is identical to the new Marklin type, which correctly goes in straight lines from mast to mast under tension. I use it as a purely cosmetic feature, with the pantographs running on the wire, but taking the power from the "pukos".

We have now come way off topic, unfortunately, but it's good to air concerns about catenary operation in general.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline quarkhirad  
#27 Posted : 07 September 2019 09:49:51(UTC)
quarkhirad

India   
Joined: 25/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 45
Location: surat
Hey guys

So i am still in old days of analog and old catenary style of marklin. In fact i just bought my first digital set in july 2019. I had fun and so now i am going to convert my locos to digital . I was wondering how to power my electric locos, once i upgrade them to digital, with my OLD STYLE catenary when i came across this post. So i really dont know what the fuss is about running the digital locos from the overhead catenary. I mean i have no experience (infact
right now as i am typing i have no digital locomotives except for a steam tank loco 0-6-0 as part of my set).

So here is something that i think from common sense, basics of operating principle.

I can see that the chances of intermittent connection is higher in case of catenary due to lesser contact area. But we are missing a very important thing " THERE ARE SPRINGS". The springs are ensuring good connections. so unless you have a 1)dirty (rusty) pantograph 2) dirty (rusty) catenary wire 3) rusty spring ( or even dusty spring as the the dust and grime will not let the spring contract and thus the pantograph will not raise fast. Breaking the connection) 4) if you have an uneven track bed that can cause the track to rise and sink suddenly by a large amount as a locomotive passes over the section (like install tracks on an uneven surface instead of a table) i dont see why you should have loose contacts. Further if you have a dirty studs or dirty slider or if your track is sloped unevenly to give rise to a joint which makes a hill shape you will have bad connections with the pickup shoe. so whats the difference between overhead and pickup shoe.

Infact to be honest i had this problem when i designed my first layout with a bridge. The problem was that i didnt tapper off the gradient slowly so there was an abrupt change from a rising slope to the flat section. So if i ran the locomotive (especial my tank locomotive) very slowly it would get stuck as the pickup shoe would loose contact. The section was so small that if i tapped the locomotive forward it would pick up again. I the solved the issue by redoing the gradients . So i think the point is keep your pantograph, springs of pantograph and wires clean and ensure that any gradients in the tracks is gradual (this will ensure that any stiffness or lag in the spring will not cause break in connections) you should be fine. Also oil the pantograph springs for smother friction less movement.

Further i have a question. Now i have only used the old M-tracks. Now i have noticed that sometimes locomotives stop in the middle of crossings or points (if they are slow enough) due to the fact that in the center of the crossings and the junction area of the points have plastic studs as they had to be insulated else the pickup shoe will short the studs and the rails as it cross the points and crossings. Now according to me this cant be solved from analog age to digital age. Thus even now in the C -track there is a chance of the locomotive loosing power. Now whether you use a digital loco or analog locomotive the problem will still rise . Thus i can see that every time a digital loco goes over a point or crossing it will loose power intermittently. Now i dont think we have a problem with that because operation with pickup shoe is ok. So why should loose contact in pickup from overhead have a problem in operation and cause mal operation of the decoders?( i.e. going into programming mode etc)


Now heat generation is due to three sources

1) the I*I*R losses (I stands for current and R is the resistance) . Which is the maximum contributor to heat generated.
2) Heat due to sparking. Much lesser than 1.
3 ) Heat due to the friction between the catenary wire and the pantograph shoe. This is also much lesser than 1 as the contact surface area is very small.

Let us see each part

1) I*IR losses.

Now some basics how is the speed of a motor varied? by varying the voltage applied simple basics ( there is no analog and digital here. This is basics of a motor operation). Now the current drawn by the motor is only dependent on the voltage applied to the motor (and well the back emf of the motor but that is almost constant for a given motor). So for a certain speed weather you use the analog or the digital method the current drawn is the same as the voltage applied to the motor terminals is the same ( remember same speed means same voltage. So in analog it is the transformer varying the voltage and in digital it is the decoder that varies the voltage thats all.). Thus even though in the digital system the voltage on the line is a constant and higher than in analog, the losses I*I*R is the same as the current drawn is the same.

2) sparking

This part of the heat depends on the voltage. Higher the voltage greater is the energy (heat) in the spark.

3) Friction

Well this is simple.

Now if we compare the three sources of heat, the heat produced by source 1 &3 is identical no matter if you are using digital or analog locos. With respect to source 2 i do agree in digital operation this is more than in analog due to higher operating voltages. But we are forgetting one thing . What is the source of sparking ??? INTERMITTENT CONNECTIONS. Now as stated above if we have clean pantograph etc there should''nt be any sparking . Hence if there is no heating issue in analog there should be no heating in digital as well.


So i dont see see any of the above reasons to be good .

However what i do see as a good reason is the fact that in the case of a intermittent connection in the overhead line the sparking can cause a large arc an the arc can burn for a longer time due to the lesser contact area of the pantograph. Now whenever there is an spark with an arc it causes a surge. This surge is extreamly harmuful and causes failures 99 times out of 100 in electronic circuits and digital IC's. Now why i am saying this? Because the decoder is nothing but and electronic circuit with digital IC's. Further the decoder is directly connected to the pantograph. So hence i think what Marklin is trying to say that in the rarest of rare case of a spark the decoder could get damaged. Because they cannot control how clean your pantograph and wire is.

Though offcourse there are many things protecting the decoder

1) the chance of spark is so rare (remember clean things)

2) the surge from a spark is very fast spike ( that means it rises very fast and falls very fast ) thus even the small stray inductances of the pantogragh wires connecting the the pantograph to decoder, the tracks on the PCB of the decoder and the stray capacitance between various elements and ground ( for example between the wires and ground, Pantograph and body of the loco etc) act as a filter and reduce the surge

3) Any good digital manufacturer knows that surges in an electric circuit is possible and thus he does include some basic surge protection. This might be an external or an internal protection in the digital IC itself. I bet these decoder do have some basic protection. Infact if it didnt then when you handle the decoder during installation (i.e upgrading analog to digital ) , while programing the decoder, when you touch the pickup shoe or pantograph then the decoder should fail due to static discharge . Our human body generally carries sufficient charge.

4) Any digital device has a certain level of immunity to surges (this is differnt from no 3) . That is why i said they fail 99 times out of 100. For example i remember the micro controller i used in college was rated for 1.3VDC but it could withstand a surge upto 1.9VDC. So the surge from the spark has to be beyond this threshold in the chip (i.e. after all protections 1 to 3).

Now what i think the users of this forum are banking on is the fact that the chance that a surge will cause the decoder to fail is so small that it is ok to take the risk. I mean there is a risk in everything we do in life. There is always the risk that you start driving your car and you will have an accident that will kill you or you take a flight and the airplane will crash causing you to die. Do we stop driving or flying no.

Though at the end i would like to quote murphy's law . Anything that can go wrong will go wrong.

So i guess marklin is being the pessimist and we have to make the choice. I also think that it is because marklin is being such a pessimist that they are not explaining why they suggest not to use the catenary. I mean if somebody were to tell you to please dont do blah blah blah because your head will explode. Then when you asked the explanation he said well it will only happen if the sky is clear and there is a full moon, it is 11:30;35 pm on a friday and the moon is at 55 degrees to the horizon. You would say ****** Cursing Cursing Cursing and ignore him and do it.

I think i really went of topic . Anyway











thanks 1 user liked this useful post by quarkhirad
Offline danmarklinman  
#28 Posted : 07 September 2019 11:08:31(UTC)
danmarklinman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 18/10/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,031
Just a thought. I’ve installed old style wires hung from Electrotren SNCF poles and Sommerfelt SNCB poles. I run digital. But I do intend to run old analog locos from it using an analog transformer, to get the sparks ⚡️:-) But also I intend to run digital locos in analog mode? Would that not satisfy those who want similar?? Dan
Marklin / ESU SNCF/SNCB , Marklin/Brawa wagons and some others
Wiking model car Fan
Faller fan including car system
Instagram: marklin1978
Offline quarkhirad  
#29 Posted : 08 September 2019 02:10:05(UTC)
quarkhirad

India   
Joined: 25/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 45
Location: surat
Hey guys

So i just got a thought. If i converter all my diesel and steam locos to digital and leave all my electric analog. then i can run them on the overhead using analog transformer. Though i do have one doubt whenever you are running analog trains you need the RFI capacitor to ground. So as my electric locos are in analog i would need a capacitor from the overhead to ground ( track rails). So my doubt is would this RFI capacitor cause any trouble in operation of my digital steam and diesel locos as the ground is common for both systems.

Thank you

khirad

thanks 2 users liked this useful post by quarkhirad
Offline TEEWolf  
#30 Posted : 08 September 2019 21:36:57(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,872
Originally Posted by: quarkhirad Go to Quoted Post

So i guess marklin is being the pessimist and we have to make the choice. I also think that it is because marklin is being such a pessimist that they are not explaining why they suggest not to use the catenary. I mean if somebody were to tell you to please dont do blah blah blah because your head will explode. Then when you asked the explanation he said well it will only happen if the sky is clear and there is a full moon, it is 11:30;35 pm on a friday and the moon is at 55 degrees to the horizon. You would say ****** Cursing Cursing Cursing and ignore him and do it.

I think i really went of topic . Anyway


Indeed, this is the major point: YOU went off topic. Why don't you open your own thread for your own topics?

Maerklin is not a pessimist. They have clear goals. But you are capturing other member's thread. What do you think is this?
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
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