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Offline peterhong  
#1 Posted : 23 February 2014 14:40:21(UTC)
peterhong

Australia   
Joined: 11/08/2012(UTC)
Posts: 12
Location: sydney
dear all, I just got the new m84 decoder. I am trying to connect the block signal(74391) and distant signal(74380) and create a block section in my layout. Few funny things happened. First of all on the decoder table came with the m84, the dip switch setting for a certain keyboard address does not correspond to the dipswitch setting actually shown on the keyboard of the Central Station. Yet it will work and it will also swtich the block track current on and off appropriately. However if you try to match the dipswitch setting on the m84 according to the dipswitch setting of the actual keyboard address showed in the Central Station, it does not work! In addition although the keyboard is turning the block section on and off appropriately, the signal light does not work at all! I also appears unable to change the code switches selection, it keep going back to 8 swtiches setting! Do I need to do anything to the switching duration? Are these all irrelevant?? Can someone help PLEASEEEEEE?
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 23 February 2014 17:40:08(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,840
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: peterhong Go to Quoted Post
First of all on the decoder table came with the m84, the dip switch setting for a certain keyboard address does not correspond to the dipswitch setting actually shown on the keyboard of the Central Station. Yet it will work and it will also swtich the block track current on and off appropriately. However if you try to match the dipswitch setting on the m84 according to the dipswitch setting of the actual keyboard address showed in the Central Station, it does not work!
It's not a bug, it's a feature: the new decoders use a new schema, the CS2 can only display the switch settings for old decoders.

Originally Posted by: peterhong Go to Quoted Post
I also appears unable to change the code switches selection, it keep going back to 8 swtiches setting!
It's not a bug, it's a feature. 8 or 10 is only needed to display the switch settings (and for your decoder they will not work either way).

Originally Posted by: peterhong Go to Quoted Post
In addition although the keyboard is turning the block section on and off appropriately, the signal light does not work at all!
The default setting for brightness is 0 (meaning lights off).
See post #54 in this thread:
https://www.marklin-user...-reading.aspx#post442797
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline peterhong  
#3 Posted : 24 February 2014 11:27:38(UTC)
peterhong

Australia   
Joined: 11/08/2012(UTC)
Posts: 12
Location: sydney
dear HO, many thanks for your reply. How do you reset the brightness then?
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 24 February 2014 21:24:51(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,840
Location: DE-NW
The answer is in post #54:
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
FYR:
CV = 38 (name=Hobbysignal Helligkeit = hobby signal brightness)
Values = 0 to 10 (0 = off, 10 = full brightness)
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline peterhong  
#5 Posted : 25 February 2014 12:10:37(UTC)
peterhong

Australia   
Joined: 11/08/2012(UTC)
Posts: 12
Location: sydney
dear Tom, I am new to the forum. Thanks for your help. However how do u get t #post54. Peter
Offline peterhong  
#6 Posted : 25 February 2014 12:37:15(UTC)
peterhong

Australia   
Joined: 11/08/2012(UTC)
Posts: 12
Location: sydney
dear Tom, I found post 54. However, I need a lot more instruction. How do you get to CV programming? Do you need special computer software or it is hidden somewhere in the CS2? Many thanks. Peter
Offline clapcott  
#7 Posted : 25 February 2014 23:45:19(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Hi Peter

Unfortunately "resetting" will not help as that will only set it back to zero.
You mention a Central Station and reference the DIP switch diagram, so I am going to assume you have a 60213/4/5 CS2

A "tidy" configuration process for DCC accessories (and the additional capability of PoM configuration for them) is a muchly anticipated feature hoped for in some future CS2 firmware update. Those that were holding their breaths would be long dead by now.
I would not bother with the MM2 register programming unless you ONLY have a 6021 - it can be done, but is just too fickle and frustrating.

In the meantime, the mechanism to do CV programming of the m83/m84 is by connecting to the programming track of the CS2(or MS2) and making use of a dummy DCC loco. I would encourage you to use an external PS (MS2 type) for the m83/m84

Steps.
A) set DIP switch 10 of the m83/m84 to "ON" (sets DCC mode - temporaraly needed for the programming) Pos1-9 irrelavent for programming, but needed for testing.
(optionally on the CS2 you may want to define(change) the matching Keyboard addresses for DCC, this will eliminate the need to power off/on and reconfigue for testing in step "H")
B) Connect m83/m84 to programming track of CS2, ensure CS2 is not on stop and that the LED by the red input connector blinks
C) On the CS2 create a DCC loco - NONE of the data fields except decoder type are relevant, you just need to get to the CV access button
D) After creating the object, re-access the settings for the DCC-dummy and press the "CV Access" button
DCC Prog A
E) NONE of the existing data is important and can be ignored.
DCC Prog B
F)
- (1) create a NEW CV line - the button with the "+"
- (2) enter the CV value - i.e. 38
- (3) enter the value - anything from 1 to 10 (shown is 7)
- (4) press the "write CV" button - picture of an arrow pointing down into the locomotive
G) All things being OK, you will observe a brief (2 second) LED light show of the LEDs next to the red/brown input connector and the job is done.
H) If testing in DCC mode you can do this immediately, if returning to MM2 mode ....
- Press Stop, (unplug PS if used), step DIP 10 back to off (MM2 mode) if required, power back on and test.

FYI,
- It is possible to save the CV template you have modified to a file on the CV2 for future use if needed
- You may also want to play with "reading" a CV - the button with the arrow pointing UP/Out of the loco. CV8 is a good one for simply verifying you can read the vendor ID.

Edited by user 27 February 2014 00:50:04(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Peter
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by clapcott
Offline peterhong  
#8 Posted : 26 February 2014 09:38:01(UTC)
peterhong

Australia   
Joined: 11/08/2012(UTC)
Posts: 12
Location: sydney
Many thanks. I will give it a go and let you know what happen. Peter
Offline peterhong  
#9 Posted : 26 February 2014 12:34:25(UTC)
peterhong

Australia   
Joined: 11/08/2012(UTC)
Posts: 12
Location: sydney
all good now. Everything is working as expected. Thank you very much for your detailed explanation. I am sure I will need more help from all you guys in the future. Peter
Offline andreasapo  
#10 Posted : 15 April 2014 23:16:39(UTC)
andreasapo

Netherlands   
Joined: 15/04/2014(UTC)
Posts: 22
Location: NOORD-HOLLAND, AMSTERDAM
Hi All,

I am completely new to the forum and to the Marklin Digital world. When I was a kid I had a normal marklin, but recently I bought a new Marklin digital set.

The other day I decided to buy two signals and the shop convinced me to buy a m84 decoder+2 signals, and I am facing exactly the problems described here.
As I don't have Central Station, but just a mobile station, do you think I will be able to do the programming you described with just a mobile station 2 60653?

Thanks a lot for your help.


Andrea
Offline clapcott  
#11 Posted : 16 April 2014 10:43:17(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: andreasapo Go to Quoted Post
... buy a m84 decoder+2 signals, and I am facing exactly the problems described here.

As I don't have Central Station, but just a mobile station, do you think I will be able to do the programming you described with just a mobile station 2 60653?

Hi Andrea

Yes the MS2 can program the m8x devices.
- Your MS2 software should be at least v1.83 if not v2 : Your shop dealer should be able to assist-
- I would recommend (if you can) getting a 2nd MS2 power supply and connecting it to the m84 , at least for the programming. This is optional but a lot "cleaner", as you go through the process you will see what I mean.

Procedure
Prep
- create a dummy loco - address irrelavent but imust be configured as DCC
- set DIP switch 10 on the m84 to on
- connect m84 to MS2 and ensure a slow blink of the LED on the right (a fast blink of both LEDs means you have Red/Brown swapped)
- ENSURE NO OTHER DCC DEVICES are connected to the MS2 as you do this
CV Programing
- with the (DCC) loco selected
- access the loco settings (shift+Loco)
- scroll down and select "Program CV'
- the title will show "Step 1: CV address"
- Dial (shift +Knob) up to 39 38
- submit with the check button (bottom right)
- (At this stage there is an attempt to read the current value of the CV from the m84 - if you have not connected the m84 correctly, this will timeout)
- at Step 2 : dial up 10 (or lower if you want a dim light) and press the check button to write the new value to the m84
- done : exit and test (if you have your accessories set for MarklinMotorola instead of DCC - change DIP pos 10 to off)

Note: if you do not have a PS connected to the m84 you may get invalid readings from the m84 - but the writes will normally work correctly

Edited by user 17 April 2014 04:13:59(UTC)  | Reason: Corrected CV# from 39 to 38

Peter
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Offline andreasapo  
#12 Posted : 16 April 2014 21:30:27(UTC)
andreasapo

Netherlands   
Joined: 15/04/2014(UTC)
Posts: 22
Location: NOORD-HOLLAND, AMSTERDAM
Hi Clapcott,

Thanks a lot for the very extensive explanation. I will try it and see if I manage.


A
Offline andreasapo  
#13 Posted : 16 April 2014 23:10:07(UTC)
andreasapo

Netherlands   
Joined: 15/04/2014(UTC)
Posts: 22
Location: NOORD-HOLLAND, AMSTERDAM
Hi Clapcott,

tried over and over again but no results. 2 things:

1) My MS2 is v1.81, not 1.83 as you asked, so this might be a problem indeed.

2) Even if the sign doesn't work shouldn't the Start/Stop mechanism work anyway? I am afraid I am doing some wiring wrong. Do you know if there should be a wire going from the m84 to the stop railway, in addition to the one of the traffic light?


Thanks a lot for your help and my apologies if the questions are trivial.


Cheers,

A
Offline clapcott  
#14 Posted : 17 April 2014 04:36:23(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: andreasapo Go to Quoted Post
Hi Clapcott,

tried over and over again but no results. 2 things:

1) My MS2 is v1.81, not 1.83 as you asked, so this might be a problem indeed.

2) Even if the sign doesn't work shouldn't the Start/Stop mechanism work anyway? I am afraid I am doing some wiring wrong. Do you know if there should be a wire going from the m84 to the stop railway, in addition to the one of the traffic light?


Thanks a lot for your help and my apologies if the questions are trivial.


Cheers,

A

Apologies - I noted CV#39 in my instructions when it should be CV#38
FYR:
CV = 38 (name=Hobbysignal Helligkeit = hobby signal brightness)
Values = 0 to 10 (0 = off, 10 = full brightness)


If you could clarify which bit didn't work it might help. If you got as far a writing a new value (and got a timeout message) then try again with CV#38
Sorry I cannot test/verify MS2 v1.81.

As to 2) wiring -
Yes you should hear the relay click inside the m84 when you change aspects - please confirm

I refer you to the diagram on page 12 of the 60841 user manual http://medienpdb.maerkli.../1/pdf/60841_betrieb.pdf
- The left most set of contacts show a hobby signal 74391 (which I expect is what we are talking about)
- you will note the Red wire from the middle of the connect is shown going to the dead/controlled piece of track
- ALSO REQUIRED is an feed INPUT from your controllers RED wire - this connects to the middle of the 3 terminal screw block. (The picture is indicating that this is from the "always live" piece of adjacent track but it could just as well come direct from the controller)
Peter
Offline andreasapo  
#15 Posted : 17 April 2014 21:07:33(UTC)
andreasapo

Netherlands   
Joined: 15/04/2014(UTC)
Posts: 22
Location: NOORD-HOLLAND, AMSTERDAM
Quote:

Apologies - I noted CV#39 in my instructions when it should be CV#38
FYR:
CV = 38 (name=Hobbysignal Helligkeit = hobby signal brightness)
Values = 0 to 10 (0 = off, 10 = full brightness)


If you could clarify which bit didn't work it might help. If you got as far a writing a new value (and got a timeout message) then try again with CV#38
Sorry I cannot test/verify MS2 v1.81.

As to 2) wiring -
Yes you should hear the relay click inside the m84 when you change aspects - please confirm

I refer you to the diagram on page 12 of the 60841 user manual http://medienpdb.maerkli.../1/pdf/60841_betrieb.pdf
- The left most set of contacts show a hobby signal 74391 (which I expect is what we are talking about)
- you will note the Red wire from the middle of the connect is shown going to the dead/controlled piece of track
- ALSO REQUIRED is an feed INPUT from your controllers RED wire - this connects to the middle of the 3 terminal screw block. (The picture is indicating that this is from the "always live" piece of adjacent track but it could just as well come direct from the controller)



Hi Clapcott,

thanks to your precise instructions I managed to get it working. Thanks a lot for your help, it works perfectly.

On another note...I thought that one of the improvements of the digital was that the breaking was more realistic and not sudden, as it happens now, and that the lights would have been on while the train stops at a signal.
Is there any system to achieve this? I am aware that with the solution I am using now it is not possible, as it just cuts he power in one section.

Thanks a lot for your help and expleanation

A
Offline clapcott  
#16 Posted : 18 April 2014 11:06:06(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: andreasapo Go to Quoted Post

On another note...
I thought that one of the improvements of the digital was that the breaking was more realistic and not sudden, as it happens now, and that the lights would have been on while the train stops at a signal.

This subject is very subjective and you will likely get flooded with individual experiences and preferences.

The first thing to appreciate is that it is the DECODER that performs the braking (not breaking)

This is not new and decoders from the 6090 back in 1991ish (i.e. 23 years ago) have had the capability to be triggered to initiate a braking.

The trick and the consideration is that this was(is) achieved by a fixed negative(-22v) DC signal on the track which the decoder INTERPRETS as a command to brake.
As there is plenty of power the lights stay on (if they were on in the first place) but because there is no digital signal getting through,you cannot control any functions (sounds/lights/reverse)

More important, is the need to ensure the DC power does not short back to the main track and ruin your controller. Marklins solutions to this inevitably require 4 discrete wired sections with transitions to prevent a direct short (by the loco/train shoe(s) ) between the two power regions. You must also resign yourself to limitations in bidirectional train travel, and needing to tune each locomotive to the same stopping distance in ALL you layouts braking areas.

The side of the debate that I am on is to prefer the use of sensors and to drive the locomotive to a stop with commands, rather than the arcane magic of a DC bias with all it wiring and shorting risks , however I am aware that this is not always possible and certainly not with just a MS2

Quote:

Is there any system to achieve this?
I am aware that with the solution I am using now it is not possible, as it just cuts he power in one section.

Yes there is a system and you are incorrect that your m84 can not make this possible ( you may just have to use up more than 1 address (relay))

I point you at the Marklin item 72441 user manual @ http://medienpdb.maerkli.../1/pdf/72441_betrieb.pdf as a reference to a targeted product, The "functions" of this unit can be performed by a m84 with a few extra electronic components.

If you are into electronics, then have a quick read of http://www.bogobit.de/bremsmodul/ to get an idea of whats involved

Its only my personal opinion, but I would assertively suggest that you save the money of these bespoke items (people usually want more than one) and invest it in a controller that has advanced functions inboard, or a PC interface for sequence management.
Peter
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by clapcott
Offline andreasapo  
#17 Posted : 21 April 2014 18:26:09(UTC)
andreasapo

Netherlands   
Joined: 15/04/2014(UTC)
Posts: 22
Location: NOORD-HOLLAND, AMSTERDAM
Thanks a lot for your extensive explanation clapcott.

For a later stage I will consider this, but for now I still need to get my head around the basics of Marklin Digital!


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