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Offline abisel  
#1 Posted : 09 February 2014 15:09:40(UTC)
abisel

United States   
Joined: 07/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 139
Location: St. Charles, Missouri
Has anyone had any issues with the switch movement binding after installation of the motors and decoder?

I have installed motors and decoders on three of these 3-way turnouts and each binds slightly such that the two switches do not move to the full extent. It requires multiple selection of the pushbutton on the keyboard to get the turnout to function properly.

Any advice? Or should Marklin be notified and let them come up with a fix?
Offline kbvrod  
#2 Posted : 09 February 2014 15:52:03(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi Alvin,all,
>Has anyone had any issues with the switch movement binding after installation of the motors and decoder?<

Did you test it before the install?One can see any binding issue beforehand.How old are they?

>I have installed motors and decoders on three of these 3-way turnouts and each binds slightly such that the two switches do not move to the full extent. It requires multiple selection of the pushbutton on the keyboard to get the turnout to function properly.<

A few things: 1) are the turnouts screwed/fastened down?Do they move freely by hand movement?Then again it could be the motor/soleniod is not powerful enough,.....

Dirt
Offline abisel  
#3 Posted : 09 February 2014 16:24:44(UTC)
abisel

United States   
Joined: 07/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 139
Location: St. Charles, Missouri
Originally Posted by: kbvrod Go to Quoted Post
Hi Alvin,all,
>Has anyone had any issues with the switch movement binding after installation of the motors and decoder?<

Did you test it before the install?One can see any binding issue beforehand.How old are they?

>I have installed motors and decoders on three of these 3-way turnouts and each binds slightly such that the two switches do not move to the full extent. It requires multiple selection of the pushbutton on the keyboard to get the turnout to function properly.<

A few things: 1) are the turnouts screwed/fastened down?Do they move freely by hand movement?Then again it could be the motor/soleniod is not powerful enough,.....

Dirt



The switches functioned without any binding before installation of the motors and decoder. Even the over-center spring would pull the switch to full closure at either end of the switch movement. Everything is new.

The turnouts are not mounted to any layout. The switches would move freely before motor/decoder installation, but bind slightly after motor/decoder installation. And it could be the motor/solenoid is indeed not powerful enough.

On a second 3-way turnout installation, I modified the long linkage on the one switch that connects to the motor by sanding it a little on both sides to reduce its thickness. This helped a little but not enough. Maybe it is the switch cover that is pushing down on the over-center spring because it rubs on the circular portion of the switch linkage.

I think you are right about the motors/solenoid not being powerful enough for the 3-way. They work fine on a single turnout.
Offline RayF  
#4 Posted : 09 February 2014 17:15:52(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Sorry, I haven't had the same problem on my three way turnout, but I do suffer similar problems on my double slip. In the case of the double slip there is a lot more mechanism being switched by the one motor, and I guess the friction involved is too much for the motor sometimes. It is always just one of the points that refuses to switch all the way over, and always the same one.

When the double slip is giving me problems I dribble a little Marklin oil into the mechanism, and this seems to free it to some extent. You might want to try that on your three-way?
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline kbvrod  
#5 Posted : 09 February 2014 17:25:36(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi all,

Quote:
When the double slip is giving me problems I dribble a little Marklin oil into the mechanism,


Scared Don't do that! M oil is terrible and putting oil near the rails is bad joss.Use a wee bit of grease,a wee bit!Smile

Dirt
Offline abisel  
#6 Posted : 09 February 2014 18:25:25(UTC)
abisel

United States   
Joined: 07/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 139
Location: St. Charles, Missouri
I found the problem.

It is the 74465 decoder itself. It does not put out enough current to the solenoids for them to push/pull properly.

When I removed the decoder and connected the switch solenoids to a k83, the switch solenoids function quickly and to their full extent without any binding or jerking.

So, the 74465 decoder is the culprit.

Marklin, listen up, your 74465 decoder needs to be reworked to put out sufficient current to operate the 74491 motor/solenoid.

Oh, never put any petroleum product on plastic parts, it will cause the plastic to deteriorate over time. Graphite dust or even baby powder works great on plastic parts.
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Offline kbvrod  
#7 Posted : 09 February 2014 19:14:31(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi Alvin,

Woot who-ra!Tongue

Let's have a drink!BigGrin

Dr D

p.s. I wonder if the Viessman 5231 would be better?Confused
Offline RayF  
#8 Posted : 09 February 2014 19:25:05(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Ok, you don't have to do what I advised, but for sticky turnouts I've found that a bit of oil does the trick. I can't apply grease without ripping out the whole track, ballast and all, so that's not an option.

Also, marklin oil is not as bad as it's made out to be. Used as advised by Marklin it has kept my locos running smoothly for years, with no negative effects.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by RayF
Offline kbvrod  
#9 Posted : 09 February 2014 19:38:20(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Ok, you don't have to do what I advised, but for sticky turnouts I've found that a bit of oil does the trick. I can't apply grease without ripping out the whole track, ballast and all, so that's not an option.

Also, marklin oil is not as bad as it's made out to be. Used as advised by Marklin it has kept my locos running smoothly for years, with no negative effects.


Hi Ray,all,
That was not a personal attack,you'll know when it happens!LOL
Grease can be applied with simple tools,like a broken toothpick,...BigGrin You apply it then work it and work it,....I have noticed in 'new' loks both Euro and US models grease as the 'solution' in loks,it doesn't dry out and stays where you put it,...
M oil does not the best in viscosity,...

D

Offline abisel  
#10 Posted : 09 February 2014 19:42:34(UTC)
abisel

United States   
Joined: 07/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 139
Location: St. Charles, Missouri
I will admit to using Marklin oil on old M type turnouts with metal linkage, but from experience in automobiles, using a petroleum product on plastic can lead to problems after time. And since the C type turnouts are all plastic except for the 3 rails, that is why I said to not use oil on them. As it turns out, it isn't the linkage after all, but rather the decoder itself.

I will have to consider the Viessmann 5235 decoder to see how that compares to the Marklin decoder. The Viessmann does have a large capacitor in its circuit, so maybe it does provide larger amounts of current to the solenoids.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by abisel
Offline kbvrod  
#11 Posted : 09 February 2014 19:49:15(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
Originally Posted by: abisel Go to Quoted Post
I will admit to using Marklin oil on old M type turnouts with metal linkage, but from experience in automobiles, using a petroleum product on plastic can lead to problems after time. And since the C type turnouts are all plastic except for the 3 rails, that is why I said to not use oil on them. As it turns out, it isn't the linkage after all, but rather the decoder itself.

I will have to consider the Viessmann 5235 decoder to see how that compares to the Marklin decoder. The Viessmann does have a large capacitor in its circuit, so maybe it does provide larger amounts of current to the solenoids.


Hi Alvin,all,
M-track is a different story being all metal.Then again plastics ARE made from petroleum.

It's worth a go.Give Viessmann a try,IMHO they are excellent products.

Your Dr Dirt.

Offline clapcott  
#12 Posted : 09 February 2014 21:20:01(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: abisel Go to Quoted Post

Marklin, listen up, your 74465 decoder needs to be reworked to put out sufficient current to operate the 74491 motor/solenoid.


Ummmmmmmmmmmmmm.

- You do not say if you tried the external power option available with this product
- You do not mention if you have altered the pulse duration time

However, and more to the point, are you sure it is the case of too little power or is it a case of too much.

Over the history of the 7449x motors, one of the issues was/is that a very powerful pulse and/or a very free mechanism would result in the actuator bouncing off the end stops and retreating a bit. In this situation Marklin have in the past advised putting a resistor in the yellow lead.
In one test , years ago, I found that putting the lever of the turnout back in provided enough working resistance to make an intermittent (bounce back) mechanism into a reliable one

The implementation of one, then two, end cut-off switches into the design of the actuator/solenoid mechanism is a double edged sword. The theory is great - prevent unnecessary/constant power to the coils, however this requires precision of adjustment (manufacturing) and the real life movement. If reality can bite, it will.
Peter
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Offline abisel  
#13 Posted : 09 February 2014 21:40:19(UTC)
abisel

United States   
Joined: 07/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 139
Location: St. Charles, Missouri
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post


- You do not say if you tried the external power option available with this product
- You do not mention if you have altered the pulse duration time

However, and more to the point, are you sure it is the case of too little power or is it a case of too much.

Over the history of the 7449x motors, one of the issues was/is that a very powerful pulse and/or a very free mechanism would result in the actuator bouncing off the end stops and retreating a bit. In this situation Marklin have in the past advised putting a resistor in the yellow lead.
In one test , years ago, I found that putting the lever of the turnout back in provided enough working resistance to make an intermittent (bounce back) mechanism into a reliable one

The implementation of one, then two, end cut-off switches into the design of the actuator/solenoid mechanism is a double edged sword. The theory is great - prevent unnecessary/constant power to the coils, however this requires precision of adjustment (manufacturing) and the real life movement. If reality can bite, it will.

Your right, I did not mention how I had hooked up the decoder. I followed the instructions and connected the red and brown to the track and the yellow to the 6001 tranformer. I did not connect the yellow to the track itself.

With the older 6021 Control Unit, 6040 keyboard and 6001 transformer, I do not think the pulse duration time can be altered. If it can. let me know how.

I do believe it is too little power because the solenoid moved slowly and jerky. When I connected to the k83, the movement was quick and fully to the end of the solenoid stroke in both directions.

I also had tried removing the small manual lever and that didn't help. The solenoids just moved slowly and jerky with the digital controller installed.
Offline clapcott  
#14 Posted : 09 February 2014 22:51:02(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: abisel Go to Quoted Post

..... I followed the instructions and connected the red and brown to the track and the yellow to the 6001 trasnformer.

While being aware that the manuals could be improved, the wiring of the yellow to a separate PS is shown graphically, including the notion for DC, the 6001 is AC.
(I am not saying this by itself is the actual problem , given that using the red-of-the-track alternative is AC-Digital)
Presumably, you do have a "good" common ground between the power supply of the 6001(Yellow) and the brown to the track from your CU
(If you are implying the same 6001 is feeding both the CU and the 74465, then that meets this requirement)


Quote:

I did not connect the yellow to the track itself.

for PD, If you did connect the yellow from the decoder to the track, did it perform differently
a better image for this is in the 74461 manual pg 28 http://medienpdb.maerkli.../1/pdf/74461_betrieb.pdf

the observations about sluggish movement and comparison with the k83 are important, and do confirm not enough power.
I am thinking high resistance to ground.

The inference is that both motors exhibit the same sluggishness


re pulse width, the defaults should be adequate (given you have proved capability of everything else with the k83) - the CV addresses for these require a DCC capable controller (i.e. > 80)

Peter
Offline kbvrod  
#15 Posted : 09 February 2014 23:22:15(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi Peter,,all,

>Over the history of the 7449x motors, one of the issues was/is that a very powerful pulse and/or a very free mechanism would result in the actuator bouncing off the end stops and retreating a bit. In this situation Marklin have in the past advised putting a resistor in the yellow lead.<

That is funny.Why didn't M think of that?Glare


D
Offline abisel  
#16 Posted : 10 February 2014 00:07:14(UTC)
abisel

United States   
Joined: 07/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 139
Location: St. Charles, Missouri
All,

Why does Marklin suggest an alternate DC power source in the instructions as indicated on page 11?

http://medienpdb.maerklin.de/pr.../1/pdf/74465_betrieb.pdf

... and print a statement like this in bold type: "The yellow wire from the digital installation decoder may not be connected with the digital power circuit". Are they saying that the 74465 decoder needs an external DC power source? And then the instructions on page 36 show a graphic with the yellow wire connected to the track. A bit confusing.

So, I connected the yellow wire to the track and guess what? The solenoids function the same as if connected to the k83.

Peter, thank you for questioning my installation. I should have ignored the "alternate" power connection and went with the graphic on page 36. It seems that the decoder does indeed provide enough power to the solenoids.

Forgive my questioning the engineers at Marklin. Maybe they do know what they are doing.




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Offline clapcott  
#17 Posted : 10 February 2014 01:26:44(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: kbvrod Go to Quoted Post
Hi Peter,,all,

>Over the history of the 7449x motors, one of the issues was/is that a very powerful pulse and/or a very free mechanism would result in the actuator bouncing off the end stops and retreating a bit. In this situation Marklin have in the past advised putting a resistor in the yellow lead.<

That is funny.Why didn't M think of that?Glare


D

I am not sure they didn't.
This is quite a lengthy chapter in the saga of design interoperability and can be quite fascinating in hindsight as one of those many examples where lessons learnt in one generation appear to be lost in the next.

There have been many other discussions on this and similar subjects,

My reading of this particular symptom is that the C-Track mechanism was inherently freer than (say) M-Track, so the designers needed to work around it - while still maintaining their brief of backward compatibility with older devices.
The design feature to help do this was the end-cut off. Theory is great but when you come to real life implementation the variances allowed the cut-off to work too well (this is why a lot of people override the switches).

I do believe that more attention to the actuator, the path guides and the tolerances of the switches should have had more time spent on them.

Conversely, and again referring to M-Track devices, the solenoids of that generation would have no problem with constant current (if a train was stopped on a circuit track) but the C-Track mechanism couldn't - thus the possibility that a switch override would (and did) cause failure.

The designers also had to cope with "any old wire" around the layout - meaning a significant range of voltage from one end to the other.

the m83 has a setting for "end-cut off device" and will stop driving when it senses no load. But this does not address the problem.
If, however, the cut-off switch is bypassed, the m83 can/should be set for a maxamin (and maybe minimum) pulse width - thus both ensuring sufficient power without overdriving the coils. It is not just the period of the drive signal that can be addressed but the intensity - the guideline is 75% for M-Track but a much tamer 30% for C-Track.


Peter
Offline clapcott  
#18 Posted : 10 February 2014 01:40:07(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: abisel Go to Quoted Post
All,
Why does Marklin suggest an alternate DC power source in the instructions as indicated on page 11?

Are you asking about the "DC" part - or the fact that an alternate source is an option in the first place?

As to DC - I have no idea

As the existence of a alternative option, I consider this purely a "me too" feature.
- personally I am of the school that sees no need for an external source to a k83 because you only power one device at a time. I do happily drive my accessories of a separate booster circuit to avoid any of the pulses been seen by some locomotive lights, but this also means I can continue to manage the layout (points and signals) should there be a short/emergency situation where track power is off
- the ONLY use of a 7446x device that I would tolerate is the carpetbahn where starter sets are assembled and disassembled. Once a layout matures to be (semi)permanent x83s should be used.

Quote:

... and print a statement like this in bold type: "The yellow wire from the digital installation decoder may not be connected with the digital power circuit". Are they saying that the 74465 decoder needs an external DC power source? And then the instructions on page 36 show a graphic with the yellow wire connected to the track. A bit confusing.

Yep......, hence my perseverance - and pointer to the 74461 picture.

I do not know if the DE section "means" the same and that this is a translation issue, but I do think that what they are meaning is that the yellow "from the alternate source - if used" should not touch the "red wire or the track"

Quote:

Maybe they do know what they are doing.

Maybe, and like bright cookies in any industry, it is the communication skills that usually suffer.
Peter
Offline christos563  
#19 Posted : 08 April 2014 19:24:22(UTC)
christos563

Greece   
Joined: 16/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 108
Location: thessaloniki
AAAAAAAAAAAXXXXXXXX,

the correct number is 24630. Will you please correct your epigraph ?
And my suggestion is not to buy these turnouts and not bother and work with them.


christos563, thessaloniki, hellas.

Edited by user 09 April 2014 15:18:49(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline petestra  
#20 Posted : 08 April 2014 21:04:16(UTC)
petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,824
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
Hi, I've had my only 24630 since 2000 and it still works perfectly although I, as others ,

have had problems with the older switch motors. Peter Smile
Offline Alsterstreek  
#21 Posted : 08 April 2014 22:24:43(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,666
Location: Hybrid Home
Likewise.
(I.e., like Peter)
However, recently troubled by decoder(s) installed in regular turnouts.
Offline witzlerh  
#22 Posted : 08 April 2014 23:38:06(UTC)
witzlerh

Canada   
Joined: 25/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 417
Location: Sherwood Park, AB, Canada
If you are running your turnouts from the track power, that is fine for small layouts.

Once you build your layout large enough, the first indication that you are approaching power limits of your single transformer/booster combination is that your turnouts will miss behave due to insufficient voltage.

My dad had this problem and was about to rip out all the switche motors.
One look at the current meter on the CS2 told me he needed another trafo/booster. Once that was in, all switches worked fine.
You can also isolate the power to the switches too.

It is not Marklin's fault if you have too many of their trains on your underpowered layout!
Harald
CS2 DB & Canadian Era 3-6
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Offline nevw  
#23 Posted : 09 April 2014 14:22:15(UTC)
nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,071
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
I have a C track 3 way turnout. I used the Viesmann decoder for the turnout. Only one decoder that does it all, I have not had a problem with the decoder, motor or switching.

nev
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
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