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Offline mike c  
#1 Posted : 18 December 2013 21:11:37(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,899
Location: Montreal, QC
Recently, I have seen several Maerklin models that include this notice in the instructions:

"Due to different legal requirements regarding electro-magnetic compatibility, this item may be used in the USA only after separate certification for FCC compliance and an adjustment if necessary.
Use in the USA without this certification is not permitted and absolves us of any liability. If you should want such certification to be done, please contact us – also due to the additional costs incurred for this."

What does this mean for North American customers?

On first glance, it appears that Maerklin is not willing to pay the FCC for the certification process.
Previously, items were approved by FCC and UL and in Canada by the Communications Canada and Ontario Hydro or CSA.

Does this apply only to items sold in Europe or does it also affect the items sold by Marklin/Walthers through the US dealer network?
Furthermore, without said certification, is Maerklin allowed to sell these items in the USA (and Canada) and how would this affect any eventual sale by the customer on ebay or other?

Regards

Mike C
Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#2 Posted : 18 December 2013 23:56:37(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,044
Yes it is something that's making me lose so much sleep and will continue to do so.

In theory it is something that can land you in court for that reason a lawyer would be the only one able to answer that question in a proper manner, the answer might not be to your liking.
Offline Western Pacific  
#3 Posted : 19 December 2013 09:06:53(UTC)
Western Pacific

Sweden   
Joined: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 841
Location: Lidingö, Sweden
John McVeigh (jmcveigh) and I made a couple of posts on the FCC and EU EMC matter in the "3089 Red Baron for USA 110 volts AC?" thread.

My understanding is that Märklin need only to verify that the engine models meet FCC rules - no need to get FCC approval. The Central and Mobile Station may need FCC approval.
On the other hand it is my understanding that Märklin should make a Supplier's Declaration of Conformity to the EU EMC rules and a copy should be part of the documentation with each item sold, for instance by putting a copy of it in the instruction booklet for every model. The measurement data should according to EU regulation be archived in a "Technical file" which should be made available would appropriate authorities request it. Based on one of John's post, I interpret it that if Märklin had the "Technical file" archived in English that could be made available to the FCC if requested.

I believe Märklin should spend perhaps a maximum of two day's work on having a consultant check the legal requirements related to EMC in Europe and North America and if required set up appropriate tests, get the documentation updated. (My experience from the telecom world was that most authorities would rely on for instance type approval from Europe or the USA for mobile telecom base stations and the ones that required a more elaborate process were often fully satisfied by doing a paper review of European or US testing reports).

As John points out, it could very well be that it is enough to do the test with a typical decoder in a typical locomotive (or perhaps two - with metal body and with plastic body) on a typical "home layout" to verify that EMC requirements are met.

=====================

In one of the posts in the "3089 Red ..." thread John has put:

"John Joseph McVeigh, Attorney At Law
(and Digital Maerklinist!)
Butler, Maryland USA
Practice before the Federal Communications Commission
Member: NY, DC, and USPTO Bars"

My background (having an M.Sc.E.E.) is that in an earlier job with telecom equipment manufacturer Ericsson I was "Manager Telecom Standardization and Regulation" and as such I had a couple of experts on legal matters related to telecom equipment reporting to me. I also had to learn about these rules and regulation as "on the job training" since there is a situation in many organizations that people only listen to those who have a manager or director title and not to the "grass root" experts who really know the matters. In the late 1990-ies I had to spend a lot of time informing "product owners" in other parts of the company that they were responsible for writing SDoCs for the EMC and LVD directives which I believe took effect in 1998.
Offline xxup  
#4 Posted : 19 December 2013 09:49:34(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,473
Location: Australia
I would not have thought that the USA FCC rules/regulations would affect Canada.. Confused
Adrian
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Offline Western Pacific  
#5 Posted : 19 December 2013 11:07:07(UTC)
Western Pacific

Sweden   
Joined: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 841
Location: Lidingö, Sweden
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
I would not have thought that the USA FCC rules/regulations would affect Canada.. Confused


Strictly speaking you are probably correct, but in this field there could be underlying standards that are the same for both the USA and Canada defining what measurements, including tolerances etc. which need to be done. On top of that there could be agreements between the USA and Canada on mutual recognition of testing etc. Which in practice means that if an equipment needs FCC approval, then that would be valid also in Canada. Given that the US market is much larger than the Canadian many manufacturers may opt to go for US approval first.

In fields that I know of both Canada and the USA belong to the same ITU-R region which plays a role for harmonized radio frequency plans and on the telephone side both the USA, Canada (and a whole bunch of smaller countries in the Caribbean) have country code 1 (where for instance Australia has 61, New Zealand 64, the UK 44, or as ITU puts it United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Sweden 46 to name some of them. A link to the full list).
Offline mike c  
#6 Posted : 19 December 2013 20:56:01(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,899
Location: Montreal, QC
Since a lot of electronic equipment sold in Canada is distributed via the US distributor, often even when there is a separate Canadian distributor, the product is then the same as that sold in the USA. In Canada, electronic equipment must be approved by Communications Canada, our equivalent to the FCC. As far as electrical certification, this is done by the Canadian Standards Association and was also done by Ontario Hydro. Canada also recognizes the US Underwriters' Lab (UL) Certification for some types of products.

In the 1980s, Marklin was distributed in the USA by Walthers and in Canada by Gordon Book & Co. G Book & Co used to have the electrical equipment certified by Ontario Hydro, and to my knowledge, Walthers and Marklin USA continued this practice for a certain time. This involved submitting one of the item to Ontario Hydro for certification. If the item was approved, OH would provide the company with a number of stickers that could be applied to other items of the same model number).

I guess that the FCC, Communications Canada, UL, CSA, etc require some kind of fee be paid for certification
It is possible that Maerklin has decided not to pay these fees, which means that the items may NOT be approved for use in North America.

Using a non UL (or CSA) transformer, for example, might have bearing on your home (fire) insurance
Using a non FCC appliance can make you liable for electronic interference, for example, if your appliance causes static on your neighbour's TV or wireless internet.

Regards

Mike C
Offline PMPeter  
#7 Posted : 19 December 2013 21:21:42(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,275
Location: Port Moody, BC
Absolutely correct Mike. However, it goes further than that. As you indicate, straight UL approval is insufficient for some items which then require a ULc approval to be allowed to be sold or work in Canada.

I believe this is why Uhlenbrock pulled all of their items and distributorships out of North America due to the extensive, testing, fees, and certification involved.

Interesting point about house insurance. I believe you are correct that if a non CSA or ULc approved device causes a fire in your home, your insurance is most likely void in Canada. Kind of the point I was trying to address in another post about a half year ago regarding using M 230 V switched mode power supplies in North America. It works with the appropriate pin adapter, but certainly is not rated or certified for it.

Peter
Offline tulit  
#8 Posted : 20 December 2013 12:37:31(UTC)
tulit

Canada   
Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 400
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
Since a lot of electronic equipment sold in Canada is distributed via the US distributor, often even when there is a separate Canadian distributor, the product is then the same as that sold in the USA. In Canada, electronic equipment must be approved by Communications Canada, our equivalent to the FCC. As far as electrical certification, this is done by the Canadian Standards Association and was also done by Ontario Hydro. Canada also recognizes the US Underwriters' Lab (UL) Certification for some types of products.

In the 1980s, Marklin was distributed in the USA by Walthers and in Canada by Gordon Book & Co. G Book & Co used to have the electrical equipment certified by Ontario Hydro, and to my knowledge, Walthers and Marklin USA continued this practice for a certain time. This involved submitting one of the item to Ontario Hydro for certification. If the item was approved, OH would provide the company with a number of stickers that could be applied to other items of the same model number).

I guess that the FCC, Communications Canada, UL, CSA, etc require some kind of fee be paid for certification
It is possible that Maerklin has decided not to pay these fees, which means that the items may NOT be approved for use in North America.

Using a non UL (or CSA) transformer, for example, might have bearing on your home (fire) insurance
Using a non FCC appliance can make you liable for electronic interference, for example, if your appliance causes static on your neighbour's TV or wireless internet.

Regards

Mike C


I think you're getting some of your certs mixed up.

CSA, cUL are safety certifications. cUL (or ULC in Quebec) is a peering equivalent of CSA. UL is the US version but generally isn't a accept mark in Canada. I'm sure you'd find many things in your home that don't bear them. In the EU, CE is their "equivalent" (which happens to cover EMC) and is mandatory there but effectively meaningless here. Cost to CSA a product runs from a few hundred to tens of thousands depending on what exactly it is and what components its comprised with.

As far as interference and EMC, FCC is required in the US. The body in Canada is called Industry Canada. A FCC cert for a non intentional radiator usually runs on the low few thousand dollars. If you have FCC generally getting IC is pretty easy (i.e. present your FCC test reports)
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