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Offline nunk  
#1 Posted : 29 October 2013 01:02:22(UTC)
nunk

Australia   
Joined: 06/08/2013(UTC)
Posts: 66
Location: Logan Village, QLD
Are all the AUX outputs (lights, smoke, Telex, other?) of Marklin decoders DC? It doesn't appear to be defined in the Decoder Manuals.

Thanks,
Neil
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 29 October 2013 07:34:49(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,537
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: nunk Go to Quoted Post
Are all the AUX outputs (lights, smoke, Telex, other?) of Marklin decoders DC?
DC or pulsed DC (PWM).
It's industrial standard to have function outputs as open collector transistors, so you have a common plus (orange wire or blue wire) with function outputs switching against minus.

Some outputs are logic level where "1" is +5V and "0" is 0V (maximum load typically 2 mA). These outputs need external amplification. You find those on the "mSD Spezial" and with ESU mfx decoders sold by Märklin.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline nunk  
#3 Posted : 29 October 2013 09:52:00(UTC)
nunk

Australia   
Joined: 06/08/2013(UTC)
Posts: 66
Location: Logan Village, QLD
Thanks Tom,
I was actually enquiring in terms of the outputs from a 29640 decoder (ex BR 03.10 vintage c.2000).
I assume the motor outputs are PWM but the AUX's for lights are c.16V DC and smoke generator c. 12VDC.
Is that correct?
Cheers,
Neil
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 29 October 2013 10:46:51(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,537
Location: DE-NW
It depends how you wire things. There is no difference between light outputs and smoke generator outputs.
Smoke generators are normally connected between function output (minus) and outer rail/loco frame (sometimes minus, sometimes plus), so the smoke generator will get power about 75% of the time with MM protocol. Some sort of PWM, based on the shape of the track signal.
Lights are normally connected between decoder plus and function output (minus) and get the "full voltage" all the time.

The track voltage can be anywhere between 16 V and 22 V. Inside the decoder there is a bridge rectifier and a transistor, so the voltage at the function output will be about 2 V below track voltage.

To calculate resistors for LEDs, I'd reckon with 22 V to be on the safe side. Most LEDs will be too bright anyway, so with these old decoders some testing with different resistors can't harm.

29640 is a 2012 new item - you probably mean a different number.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline nunk  
#5 Posted : 29 October 2013 23:23:48(UTC)
nunk

Australia   
Joined: 06/08/2013(UTC)
Posts: 66
Location: Logan Village, QLD
Thanks Tom,

That all makes sense to me. I've noticed the track voltage is different between the CS2 and the MS2 by a couple of volts. You're right, the decoder I meant to reference out of that BR 03 is a 602758 V1.1. Well that's the reference number on the PCB.

Two of the three AUX's have failed (smoke and running lights). The forward and reverse lights are OK and showing track voltage. The smoke is dead and the running lights gives a brief pulse (too brief to measure the voltage) every couple of seconds.

So the locos going to get a new 60945 for Christmas!

BTW, 29640 was my Starter Set which I bought used a few months ago. I later discovered to my dismay that the BR 03 which should have come with this set (BR 252) had been substituted with the above BR 03 1022. I wasn't able to have the situation rectified so I was stuck with the 'wrong' loco with a dodgy decoder. We live and learn!

Cheers,
Neil
Offline Minok  
#6 Posted : 05 April 2017 01:26:52(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,323
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
To resurrect this old horse 4 years later....

I'm trying to spec the micro-relays I would need to use a function output from the factory installed mfx decoders on modern locomotives as a driver. The plan is to use an existing function output on the factory installed mfx decoders to drive a micro-relay to switch power on/off to a conducting coupling to flow out to the chain of 3-6 cars' LED lighting.

So I'm trying to spec the coil voltage of said relays. Do the Märklin factory relays generate logic level voltages (eg 5vDC - or can I switch their open collector nature to a 5vDC source on the decoder) - or do they generate 19vDC...

I probably should just open up one of my locos and measure, but am trying to save myself that exercise (as they are all presently boxed up and stored as I prepare the room for layout construction).

Or do I just spec a 5vDC coil voltage relay, and then install the appropriate resistor to ensure the coil voltage is 5v based on relay's coil resistance?
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 05 April 2017 07:36:44(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,537
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Do the Märklin factory relays generate logic level voltages (eg 5vDC - or can I switch their open collector nature to a 5vDC source on the decoder) - or do they generate 19vDC...
Some factory-installed decoders have two outputs for 5 V DC (AUX3 and AUX4), but you should not draw more than 2 mA.

Some decoders have AUX3/4 as open collector outputs. The voltage will be around 16 through 20 volts, depending on the track voltage.

AUX1 and AUX2 are always open collector with mfx decoders.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Minok  
#8 Posted : 05 April 2017 08:04:07(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,323
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
I guess my next question is how can one tell. Any technical docs on this?

2mA isn't a lot to work with
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 05 April 2017 08:13:16(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,537
Location: DE-NW
Here's a picture with four Märklin mfx decoders (before the MSD/3 generation).
fourmfxdecoders.jpg
The two decoders at the top have 5 V DC at AUX3 and AUX4, the two decoders at the bottom have open collector outputs.

Look at the lower left quarter of each decoder. In the centre at the bottom there is one IC missing for the decoders in the top row.

The 2 mA are meant to drive a transistor to give you another open collector output when needed. To drive a relay, open collector is the way to go.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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