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Offline clapcott  
#1 Posted : 27 October 2013 07:22:18(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
FYI

Marklin Märklin

60831 "white" referred to as m83.1
medienpdb.maerklin.de/product_files/1/pdf/60831_betrieb.pdf
- version ref = Jul2013 197548/0713/Ha1Ef
- version ref = May2016 197548/0516/Sc3Ef - Cosmetic and regressive
....................................................................- = pg 21 = (e.g. C-Track ref) 250 milliseconds changed to 0,25 seconds - NOTE the comma ","
....................................................................- = pg 20/21 = various time references changed from 0.05 to 0,05
....................................................................- = whip dee do - get a life
....................................................................If you are going to be helpful why not actually provide the VALUE to be used i.e. for ....
....................................................................-- pulse width 30% of 256 = 85 !!!
.................................................................... or
....................................................................-- for period 0,25 means a value of 4 !!!!

60832 "black" referred to as m83.2
http://medienpdb.maerkli.../1/pdf/60832_betrieb.pdf
- version ref = Mar2017 283054/0317/Sc1Sh - first GA release - 60831 base PLUS mfx registration and CV79 for 8 switch mode
....................................................................- = pg 20 = mfx Registration notes only
....................................................................- = pg 20/21 = CV79 - Preset Operational Modes (0 - 5)
- Units themselves presenting firmware version at GA = May 2017 ... CV:7 = 19 .... mfx info shows 1.19.0.6 and dated 20170117
Jul2017 = CS2 update 4.2.1(0) to better support mfx configuration
- version ref = Sep2017 283055/0917/Sm2Sh - LOSS of information about CV79 and modes of operation !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


60841 "white" referred to as m84.1
medienpdb.maerklin.de/product_files/1/pdf/60841_betrieb.pdf
- version ref = Sep2013 197551/0913/Ha1Ef
- version ref = Nov2013 197551/1114/Ha4Na - Added Hobby signal reference and Switch8 (configure lights on always for Hobby)

60842 "black" referred to as m84.2
http://medienpdb.maerkli.../1/pdf/60842_betrieb.pdf
- version ref = Apr2017 283061/0417/Sc1Sh - first GA release - 60841 base PLUS mfx registration and CV79 for 8 switch mode
....................................................................- = pg 18 = mfx Registration notes only
....................................................................- = pg 18 = CV79 - Preset Operational Modes (0 - 4)


60821
medienpdb.maerklin.de/product_files/1/pdf/60821_betrieb.pdf
- version ref = May2015 157540/0514/Ha1Ef

60822
medienpdb.maerklin.de/product_files/1/pdf/60822_betrieb.pdf
Aug2015 update
Ref post by StevenTrain for 60822 manual
60822 manual
May2017 update
- version ref = Nov2016 246577/1116/Sc3Ef


VERY light reading ....

Telegraphing the 60822 (Yet another add-on needed to be fully functional - like the 60821)
to be used when external power supplies used
- doesn't say exactly why or what for

Talks about daisy chaining multiple m83/m84s
- doesn't say the maximum number

Addressing talked about for both MM and DCC
- but no specifications for ranges (Switch table shows up to 160) ?!?!
(External ref to product db indicated MM=1-320,DCC=1-2040)

Talks about monitor lights
- doesn't reference them on the diagram

Diagram (for m84) makes reference to "Set screw terminals for external buttons or switching contacts”.
- But no info on how to actually wire them up

m84 = NON Latching relays -
"In the event of a drop-off in voltage (short circuit) at the terminals (4) all of the relays are set to “off” ".
IMPLICATION - the m84(60841) is therefore NOT a replacement for the k84(6084/60840)

m83 - There is a big disconnect between the operational picture (showing 4 x point motors) and the last two programing tables which show values for pulse width and features like blinking/strobing/marsing etc.
- The glib reference to the 60821 needed for a motor with no supporting connection documentation is far from enlightening.


=======================================================================================
References:

Marklin Product Catalogue - m83 60831 ...

Decoder for switching turnouts, signals and uncoupling tracks.
The 83 m supports the digital formats Motorola and DCC.

To set the digital address via DIP switches or via the programming track possible.
It is the address range in ..
Motorola format to address 320
DCC address format to 2040 are available.

The 83 m has 8 outputs, each controlled separately. Default is the switching of up to 4 points.
Other functions include ....
- the switching of lighting (dimmable) with Switch-defined (eg street lighting),
- as well as the switching of lighting houses.

It is possible an external power supply, eg to realize about 66361st The decoder 60831 and 60841 are Bayable.

For motor drives each output is a necessary Zurüstset 60821.
The connection is made ​​by means of slip terminals.
Maximum current carrying capacity at 3A. highlights:

Many new switching options.
LED display for quick recognition of operating conditions.
Updatable.

=================================================================================================
Specifications. (Field observation / Marketing hype)

Physicals
Size:
- Width = 80mm (excluding the lugs for screwholes , these each stick out 12mm each side)
- Depth = 102mm (excluding "baying"/"daisychain" connectors which together add another 8mm)
- Height = 38mm

Power:
- Voltage specification on base of unit (not in manual) = 19V DC
- Connector is a 2.5mm centre pin

- per port sustained?/burst?
- per module sustained?/burst? - (3 Amps noted in product database)
- per chain sustained?/burst?

Operation
Protocols
- Motorola (DIP pos 10 = Off)
- DCC (DIP pos 10 = On)
Addressing
physically via DIP switches or programatically (DIP address pos1-9= 0)
- Motorola 1-320 (as per Product db)
- DCC 1-2040 (as per Product db)

Edited by user 14 January 2018 00:31:51(UTC)  | Reason: 0717 mFX configuration : Buggy output function dialogue

Peter
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Offline steventrain  
#2 Posted : 27 October 2013 09:38:26(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 32,846


Click link above and show 'Marklin' logo showing.

Copy and paste the link into new window.

Quote:
http://medienpdb.maerklin.de/product_files/1/pdf/60831_betrieb.pdf


Quote:
http://medienpdb.maerklin.de/product_files/1/pdf/60841_betrieb.pdf
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
User is suspended until 30/01/2021 11:18:10(UTC) Goofy  
#3 Posted : 27 October 2013 10:07:23(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,331
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
FYI

http://medienpdb.maerkli.../1/pdf/60831_betrieb.pdf
- version ref = Jul2013 197548/0713/Ha1Ef

http://medienpdb.maerkli.../1/pdf/60841_betrieb.pdf
- version ref = Sep2103 197551/0913/Ha1Ef


I suggest you wait for further information.
It´s not ready yet.
But there some functions i don´t like.
Switch table shall stand up to 320 turnouts or and signals.
My Lenz LS150 turnout decoder is much more easier to use,but works only in DCC motion.

Edited by moderator 27 April 2014 05:05:57(UTC)  | Reason: No need to repost the entire first post.....

User is suspended until 30/01/2021 11:18:10(UTC) Goofy  
#4 Posted : 31 October 2013 19:24:50(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,331
It´s now out with decoder m83.
Offline clapcott  
#5 Posted : 31 October 2013 20:29:07(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Cursory response from Marklin .....

Re 60822 and Specifications for alternatives to "external power for m83/m84"
- "item 60822 will be presented officially soon...." "We can tell you more about this technique, when it is available."
- no specs for alternative for power to allow m83/m84 to work with external power as advertised.

Re How many m83/m84 can be daisy chained
- "it depends" (Doh!)

Re Wiring diagram for m84 for "Set screw terminals for external buttons or switching contacts”.
- <no reply>

Re m83 - Wiring diagram and specs detail about the reference to lights
- simply restated that lights could be used with "flash-function" without providing connection details and specs

Re. 60821 interconnect
- "For more information we still have to wait, until it is complete developed"
Peter
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H0
User is suspended until 30/01/2021 11:18:10(UTC) Goofy  
#6 Posted : 01 November 2013 08:25:06(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,331
Aunt Marklin is rushing to fast.
User is suspended until 30/01/2021 11:18:10(UTC) Goofy  
#7 Posted : 01 November 2013 16:36:14(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,331
I did visit hobby store today and did see decoder 60831.
The dip switches is very small!! ThumbDown
You need tooth stick to move dip switch.
It´s very thin and hard to see.
Turnout decoder is bigger than the old 60830.
Let´s see the results when some one test via youtube.
Offline clapcott  
#8 Posted : 01 November 2013 20:49:06(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post

Re 60822 and Specifications for alternatives to "external power for m83/m84"
- "item 60822 will be presented officially soon...." "We can tell you more about this technique, when it is available."
- no specs for alternative for power to allow m83/m84 to work with external power as advertised.

A further reply from Maerklin service when pressed

"60822 will be presented with the new catalogue next month. The item itself should be available in springtime 2014.
There is no alternative to this product. It is necessary for the radio counter-countermeasures."
<I suspect it should be only one counter>

Umm.
on wonders ......
Is this a reference to the pending annual yearbook/catalogue ? - "usually" this annual catalogue does not contain new items !
....
Peter
User is suspended until 30/01/2021 11:18:10(UTC) Goofy  
#9 Posted : 02 November 2013 09:22:00(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,331
In question about switch table,it don´t shows with code 7 and 8 to Control further turnouts like up to 320 in MM.
So i guess you shall follow same old switch table that shows up to 320 turnouts.
User is suspended until 30/01/2021 11:18:10(UTC) Goofy  
#10 Posted : 03 November 2013 10:50:12(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,331
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
In question about switch table,it don´t shows with code 7 and 8 to Control further turnouts like up to 320 in MM.
So i guess you shall follow same old switch table that shows up to 320 turnouts.


I wonder if it´s wrong switch table from Marklin...??
Dip switches is not correct what it stand in the new switch decoder.

Offline clapcott  
#11 Posted : 05 November 2013 01:57:16(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post

Dip switches is not correct what it stand in the new switch decoder.


Hi Anders, please clarify..

The DIP switch examples do show a binary addressing system similar to that already seen in the 74461/65
This is different from the Motorola (2 pos, 3 state) addressing used by k83/k84 and locos etc. The 74460 uses a hybrid system of both.

It must be also noted that there is another annoying difference in the CVs for the programming of soft addresses.
- The 74461/5 used the formula : CV1 + (CV9 x 256) where CV1 could be 0-255 and CV9 0-7 giving a <documented> range of 1-2044
- The 60831/41 uses the formula : CV1 + (CV9 x 64) where CV1 could be 0-63 and CV9 (still only) 0-7 to give a module range of 0-511 (meaning a <theoretical*> range of 1-2048 for the outputs)

*theoretical - as no specifications listed to identify operational range
Peter
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Offline jeehring  
#12 Posted : 06 November 2013 19:46:13(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
...I don't really understand what the contacts N° 7 are for & about ?....Confused
User is suspended until 30/01/2021 11:18:10(UTC) Goofy  
#13 Posted : 09 November 2013 18:56:12(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,331
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post

Dip switches is not correct what it stand in the new switch decoder.


Hi Anders, please clarify..

The DIP switch examples do show a binary addressing system similar to that already seen in the 74461/65
This is different from the Motorola (2 pos, 3 state) addressing used by k83/k84 and locos etc. The 74460 uses a hybrid system of both.

It must be also noted that there is another annoying difference in the CVs for the programming of soft addresses.
- The 74461/5 used the formula : CV1 + (CV9 x 256) where CV1 could be 0-255 and CV9 0-7 giving a <documented> range of 1-2044
- The 60831/41 uses the formula : CV1 + (CV9 x 64) where CV1 could be 0-63 and CV9 (still only) 0-7 to give a module range of 0-511 (meaning a <theoretical*> range of 1-2048 for the outputs)

*theoretical - as no specifications listed to identify operational range


Well...
CV1 and CV9 is for DCC protocol by programming numbers of turnouts/signals.
Which also number dip switch 10 must been "on".
Dip switches 1-8 is for MM by choise control turnouts/signals.
If i want to use turnout decoder with DCC,i prefer Lenz LS150.
Seems Marklins turnout decoder 60830 is better...

Offline clapcott  
#14 Posted : 10 November 2013 04:54:49(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post

If i want to use turnout decoder with DCC,i prefer Lenz LS150.
Seems Marklins turnout decoder 60830 is better...


Hi Anders,

I did not start this thread to compare the product(s) - except against their own marketing specs and hype.
Rather, I wish to extract the individual feature details and ensure completeness and comprehension of capabilities, limitations and interoperability.
After that , the informed reader can apply their own weighting to each feature as they see fit

If you wish do do "apple and oranges" comparisons at a product level please start another thread.
Peter
Offline clapcott  
#15 Posted : 10 November 2013 05:12:51(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post

Well...
CV1 and CV9 is for DCC protocol by programming numbers of turnouts/signals.
Which also number dip switch 10 must been "on".
Dip switches 1-8 is for MM by choise control turnouts/signals.


Anders, I think you are muddying the water.

Yes DIP switch 10 is used to select the mode - Off=Motorola, On=DCC

However the addressing method is applicable to both protocols ...
If DIP 1-9 are all off (i.e. = zero) - soft addressing is used and CVs 1/9 are read
If DIP 1-9 are Non-zero, then they represent the hard address.

Marklin do add a recommendation that the hard addressing be used. There is no protocol bias in this statement
Because the addressing is for each module of 4, the 1-511 address range available with the DIP switches almost completely covers the CS2s current 2048 address range, meaning that soft programming of the address is only NEEDED for 2045-2048. However the Marketting Product db details state 1-2040

Edited by user 11 November 2013 09:37:59(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Peter
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H0
User is suspended until 30/01/2021 11:18:10(UTC) Goofy  
#16 Posted : 10 November 2013 10:49:20(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,331
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post

Well...
CV1 and CV9 is for DCC protocol by programming numbers of turnouts/signals.
Which also number dip switch 10 must been "on".
Dip switches 1-8 is for MM by choise control turnouts/signals.


Anders, I think you are muddying the water.

Yes DIP switch 10 is used to select the mode - Off=Motorola, On=DCC

However the addressing method is applicable to both protocols ...
If DIP 1-9 are all off (i.e. = zero) - soft addressing is used and CVs 1/9 are read
If DIP 1-9 are Non-zero, then they represent the hard address.

Marklin do add a recommendation that the hard addressing be used. There is no protocol bias in this statement
Because the addressing is for each module of 4, the 1-511 address range available with the DIP switches almost completely covers the CS2s current 2048 address range, meaning that soft programming of the address is only NEEDED for 2045-2048.


Dip switches 1-6 is to adress up to 160 turnouts.
Where is rest of 160 turnouts??
It don´t make sense by choise up to 160 turnouts via dip switches(1-6) while rest is to program.
Sorry but it´s bullshit about the new decoder.

User is suspended until 30/01/2021 11:18:10(UTC) Goofy  
#17 Posted : 10 November 2013 10:54:49(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,331
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post

If i want to use turnout decoder with DCC,i prefer Lenz LS150.
Seems Marklins turnout decoder 60830 is better...


Hi Anders,

I did not start this thread to compare the product(s) - except against their own marketing specs and hype.
Rather, I wish to extract the individual feature details and ensure completeness and comprehension of capabilities, limitations and interoperability.
After that , the informed reader can apply their own weighting to each feature as they see fit

If you wish do do "apple and oranges" comparisons at a product level please start another thread.


It´s good to equal with others Products,so someone can be sure by choise.
In fact...i see myself now that old decoder 60830 is much more easier way to connect turnouts/signals.
Marklin could also done with new decoder with 6 output instead to save Money for the customer.
Or even better...8 outputs.
Just like 2 pieces of C track that equals as one 360 mm track.
Well...well...well...

Offline jeehring  
#18 Posted : 11 November 2013 17:11:31(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
Originally Posted by: jeehring Go to Quoted Post
...I don't really understand what the contacts N° 7 are for & about ?....Confused


I quote myself : on the m84 diagram what do you think about out/inputs N° 7...anyone knows ?
Offline H0  
#19 Posted : 11 November 2013 18:25:41(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,840
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: jeehring Go to Quoted Post
I quote myself : on the m84 diagram what do you think about out/inputs N° 7...anyone knows ?
What we think or what we know?

I know they are undocumented in the manual (except "Set screw terminals for external buttons or switching contacts").

I think the m84 may be used in analogue environments much like a 7244 when these 8 inputs are used (buttons, keyboard, control box).

Märklin as we know it: clever engineering, lousy documentation with some losses in translation.
Sooner or later we'll know what they are for.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline steventrain  
#20 Posted : 11 November 2013 18:38:06(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 32,846
The table of 160 to 320 is not missing, it was not printed deliberately, because the table is intended to represent only a sample - the importance of the dip-switch is a page previously explained! - Stummi forum.

I will contact Marklin and let you know.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline clapcott  
#21 Posted : 11 November 2013 21:45:34(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jeehring Go to Quoted Post
I quote myself : on the m84 diagram what do you think about out/inputs N° 7...anyone knows ?

I think the m84 may be used in analogue environments much like a 7244 when these 8 inputs are used (buttons, keyboard, control box).

..... Contact Tracks, Circuit Tracks, Reed Switches ...


The 9th contact is the familiar upside down "T" to indicate the return for button option wiring.
One question is if there is any limitation on using the rail with switching contacts if the m84 is on a different power boundary. Like other solutions maintaining a common ground/return around the layout should make this OK

I take issue with the labeling of inputs 1-8. I suspect they would have more obvious meaning if labelled as 1(red),1(green),2(red)....
Their grouping in 3's just adds confusion.

Peter
Offline clapcott  
#22 Posted : 11 November 2013 21:49:45(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: steventrain Go to Quoted Post
The table of 160 to 320

161-510
as documented in the product catalogue (not the 60831/41 manual), the device can address up to 2040 (= 510 units x 4 ports each)
Quote:
I will contact Marklin and let you know.

good luck with getting a meaningful answer

============================================================================================
Update/Append

FYI: A .PDF of full Address Table attached
Concise m8x AddrTable 20160322c.pdf (431kb) downloaded 52 time(s).
Large Print m8x AddrTable 20160322c large.pdf (234kb) downloaded 48 time(s).

Edited by user 22 March 2016 09:09:03(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Peter
Offline clapcott  
#23 Posted : 11 November 2013 22:00:27(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Re..... CV34/35 for the 60183 (linking pairs of outputs <1&2 or 3&4> for 3Way and DoubleSlip - so you only need to press one button)

These are not for use with the Central Stations.
Their use can be of benefit to standalone MS2s where a single button sends a single command and the m84 can manage the 2 motors as needed.

The CS, with its 3/4 state icons will continue to produce the needed 2 commands even if one button is pushed.
having the m83 set for "intelligent" mode when this happens will likely result in chatter or confusion.

If, in the future, the CS2 gets a "profi.." variant option for the 3way and DoubleCrossover switches icons (like it has for the 3/4 aspect signals) then these setting may come into play to reduce traffic.

=================================================================================================
Update / Append

If you do use this feature for a 3-Way turnout, EITHER green button will result in both solenoids getting a "go straight" pulse.

Implication: traditionally you have been able to use the unused green aspect of the 2nd address for another item e.g. uncoupler, this is no longer possible.

Edited by user 17 November 2013 21:14:39(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Peter
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hgk
Offline clapcott  
#24 Posted : 11 November 2013 22:03:13(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Re..... PoM of accessory CVs
( PoM = "Programming on Main" for DCC, is akin to mFX where configuration changes can be made without the need of a programming track. Unlike mFX, where every decoder has a unique address, the initial setting of the address for a DCC device needs a separate process)

At this stage I am unaware of any Marklin Controller that can manage PoM for accessories
(The address space for DCC Locos(mobile) decoders is mutually exclusive to that Accessory(static) devices.

Does anyone know otherwise?
Peter
Offline H0  
#25 Posted : 11 November 2013 22:16:27(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,840
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
At this stage I am unaware of any Marklin Controller that can manage PoM for accessories
My CS 60212 supports it (but some will complain it's an ECoS and not a Märklin controller anymore).

According to the Märklin product database, the CS2 provides complete DCC functionality ...
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline clapcott  
#26 Posted : 11 November 2013 22:49:12(UTC)
clapcott

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Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
According to the Märklin product database, the CS2 provides complete DCC functionality ...

Tom,

Sounds like you have made a recording from the Marklin (actually any companies) help desk.

and I, like a stupid customer, naively expected my question, if answered YES, to automatically generate a pointer as to HOW without further prompting.

So I will rephrase my question ....

If anyone knows of any Marklin controllers, still in a configuration supported by Marklin, that can manage PoM for static(Accessory) DCC devices could you please a) indicate which ones , AND b) provide instructions, or pointers to instructions, on how to perform a PoM operation?

Peter
Offline clapcott  
#27 Posted : 11 November 2013 23:03:57(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Re ....... 60831 "Recommendation the following pulse widths and periods for our turnout mechanisms"

I would appreciate a further explanation (maybe a check on the translation from German) as to why there is a need for BOTH a pulse width and a period when configuring a connection for a turnout mechanism

I do understand that the "sturdy" M-Track devices can do with a longer (1000ms) pulse and the C-Track only a 250ms pulse.
So what is reference to pulse width percentage about ?

For a continuous action (e.g. flashing light) I can perceive that the period relates to the rate of flashing (the time for an ON and Off cycle) and that the pulsewidth to the duty cycle or "On time" as a percentage of the overall period. But how does this relate to a single action pulse of a turnout mechanism.

I am further confused by the reference in the preceding chart to "Period" being "Time interval between the pauses", rather than the time interval OF the PULSE. Are these just transcription errors?

===============================================================
Update / Append.


Field observation shows that the CV "period" is the time for one cycle - i.e. a real period not the misleading "Time interval between the pauses"

The CV "pulse width" does refer to the PWM pulse (= 12.5ms) and the percentage of "on" time.
e.g. value of 128 (=50% of 255) means approx 6.25ms on and 6.25ms off

The defaults for the m83 are PulseWidth=255 (i.e. 100%) and Period=4 (i.e. 250ms - starting at 0= 5*50ms)
In my testing this is "OK" for good C-Track motors. Increasing the period to 8 worked wonders, However trialing the 30% or 75% pulse width recommendations appears to be a total waste of time and the motors were very sluggish AND unreliable.

With SwitchFunction mode 18 (the default) there appears to be some detection of load so that when no load is detected (i.e. the motor reaches its cut off switch) the port stops providing power - if the motor was held so that it didn't reach the cutout, the port would continue to drive power until the time designated in the "period" CV.

Edited by user 18 November 2013 03:02:58(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Peter
Offline H0  
#28 Posted : 11 November 2013 23:29:24(UTC)
H0


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Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
I am further confused by the reference in the preceding chart to "Period" being "Time interval between the pauses", rather than the time interval OF the PULSE. Are these just transcription errors?
Turnouts are normally operated in a single pulse mode - and then period specifies the time the pulse lasts.
I presume the percentage refers to function outputs dimmed by PWM. The manual is a bit foggy about the features. Not much there that could get lost in translation. Confused

Re POM: Märklin write "Now with complete DCC functionality too."
You could e-mail them and ask how you can program the new m83 using POM with the CS2. I'm afraid I expect too much when I read "complete DCC functionality". But maybe we're in for a good laugh.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline clapcott  
#29 Posted : 12 November 2013 03:18:22(UTC)
clapcott

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Re............ Switching functions : 60831 pg22 .

Compounding the issue of no controller support for PoM, Similar questions arise regarding the holistic support of the switching functions by way of a matching set of icons for the keyboard on the Central Station.

There is also the question of what the numbers in the "Switch" column of the "Possible Switching Function" table mean.

If I was to speculate it would be that a (delayed) update for the CS2 will provide answers, and that the "Switch" column should actually be showing icons and not icon_id's.
Marklin could do well by insulating the user from the need to worry about CV numbers and provide meaningful configuration panels as part of the Keyboard item setup dialog.

===============================================================
Update / Append.

For those that speak a different kind of English...

Touch = Once, Pulse, Singleshot
Switch = Continuous (stays on or stays pulsing in the mode selected)

All 8 inputs are totally independent unless the "Link" CVs 34/35 are activated,
It is the controller that ties pairs together by sending 1R or 1G
If the m83 is set for one of the Switching functions with Switch/Continuous mode defined then the output of the port will toggle on and off

To reemphasize - you cannot tell from the controller icons if the state is on or off. An out of sync situation will occur
a) in the controller that, for example, automatically turns the 1R icon off when the 1G icon is pressed (CS2 can get around this bit)
b) if the m83 is powered off/on, the output will revert to the off state even if the controller thinks its last command was to turn on

As noted, if you do not have the external power supply and are using track signal only, then a short (or similar track off) state stop the switching function (if it was on, it will be off when power is restored)

===============================================================
Update / Append.


The "touch" options 1-14 appear to be pointless. They litterally pulse for a fraction of a second with no reference to the "Period" at all.
i.e. does not mean "perform the function once"

===============================================================
Update / Append.


FYI.
The PWM period for all functions is 12.5ms, the pulse width CV represents the "On" time of the pulse
For all functions except "Low Energy lamp" this is effectively the MAX %
e.g.
The Dimmer is essentialy an "always on" function and the Pulse width value = translates to the brightness
The Gyro will oscillate between zero and this value.

The Low Energy lamp has some interesting characteristics.
- The max output is 50% of the CV value BUT the CV must be between 200-255
- When switched off you must wait the "period" before turning on again
- if the "decay" is not allowed to complete and the function is turned on it will stay on BUT at the decayed value
e.g. Period = 10seconds
- Switch on takes 10 seconds for lamp to get fully on which is 50% of CV value
- Switch off and wait 5 second and switch on again
- - the decay will have been 50% (of the original 50%) and the lamp will stay at this brightness - It will NOT resume the build up to its max voltage

Edited by user 18 November 2013 02:51:28(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Peter
Offline H0  
#30 Posted : 12 November 2013 07:55:54(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,840
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
If I was to speculate it would be that a (delayed) update for the CS2 will provide answers, and that the "Switch" column should actually be showing icons and not icon_id's.
Marklin could do well by insulating the user from the need to worry about CV numbers and provide meaningful configuration panels as part of the Keyboard item setup dialog.
CV numbers work with every controller, fancy CS2 icons only work with a CS2.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline clapcott  
#31 Posted : 13 November 2013 21:13:41(UTC)
clapcott

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Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
If I was to speculate it would be that a (delayed) update for the CS2 will provide answers, and that the "Switch" column should actually be showing icons and not icon_id's.
Marklin could do well by insulating the user from the need to worry about CV numbers and provide meaningful configuration panels as part of the Keyboard item setup dialog.
CV numbers work with every controller, fancy CS2 icons only work with a CS2.

Tom,

What you say is true but a red herring as I am addressing the issue of PoM.

In context, two specific points come to mind ...
1) Marketing departments are two-faced at the best of time although their bias is towards "new business" and "market share", however the release of a product with features that show up the deficiencies in interoperability with related products from the same company would usually be seen as commercial suicide.

2) The feature-set ("Switching functions"), being discussed here ,is moving the product away from a "one time setup/set and forget address only" mode to more of one that will be tweaked occasionally over time. Akin to the tuning of Acc/Dec on a loco. Therefore, expecting modelers to remove the unit from under the layout just to connect it to the programming track to alter CVs "the old/hard way" is lacking foresight.

Marklin may eventually address this with a functionality update to the CS2s or with a new CS3 or not at all, but not commenting on the issue at all means the question hangs over their heads and distracts attention from the workable benefits.
Peter
Offline clapcott  
#32 Posted : 13 November 2013 21:20:31(UTC)
clapcott

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Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Re..... Power limitations.

I wonder how the 60381 can ever reach its 3A capacity (as mentioned in the product database - not the manual) when the only option for external power is a 36VA (2Amp) 66361/66365

Not using the external power option and sucking power (3A) from the track would mean almost nothing left to run the trains

======================================================================================
Update / Append.


The label on the base of the m83 identifies the DC power connector for 19V DC - centre pin = "+"

The Marklin 66361 is rated as 18V and works well.
Still no better understanding of what the "documented but unanounced" 60822 is for

======================================================================================
Update / Append.


It has been noticed that (on my test layout with MS2) that having an external power supply connected makes a significant improvement in the reliability of CV reads

Without the external power supply, CV reads sometimes wouldn't work or the values read were not reliable (as though bits missed e.g. 18 showed as 2 or 9 might show as 1)

Edited by user 16 November 2013 21:20:26(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Peter
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by clapcott
Offline clapcott  
#33 Posted : 15 November 2013 02:59:58(UTC)
clapcott

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Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Consolidated as update to Post#29

Edited by user 16 November 2013 21:00:20(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Peter
Offline clapcott  
#34 Posted : 15 November 2013 04:22:04(UTC)
clapcott

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Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Consolidated as update to Post#23

Edited by user 16 November 2013 21:13:23(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Peter
Offline clapcott  
#35 Posted : 15 November 2013 04:24:51(UTC)
clapcott

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Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
YouTubeDemo

Demo m84 with Various Switch Functions

8 outputs set for various "Switching functions"
(All "periods" if relavent set at 5 seconds)

1Red = Random task / flickering light
1Green = Gyro
2Red = Single Flash
2Green = Double Flash
3Red = Blink light 1 (Starts in Off)
3Green = Blink light 2 (Starts in On)
4Red = Tubes (Simulates fluorescent tube lights) - shown twice during video
4Green = MARS


I started out testing with an LED and resister but found the onboard LEDs just as indicative.
During this however, I found that the "off" voltage was still pulled-up to 15V approx, resulting in a dim glow.

Need to evaluate minimum load requirements

=================================================================================================
Update / Append

I have ascertained that a 1k "pull down" resister is sufficient to stop the LED glow.
this means less than 20mA of idle and added continuous idle current - which is acceptable in the circumstances, given that a port set to use these functions would be expected to use 20-50mA for an LED load in the on position.

with a specification of 3A (product catalogue - not manual) for the unit - Higher continuous loads of 300mA for all 8 ports at once would appear to be ok

Edited by user 17 November 2013 22:56:40(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Peter
User is suspended until 30/01/2021 11:18:10(UTC) Goofy  
#36 Posted : 17 November 2013 19:41:09(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,331
Nice video!
I was at ESU homepage and did download info about switch pilot.
There is ready list which shows how to use CV1 for MM.
With CV9 is for higher numbers of turnouts in DCC.
I suppose Marklin will do that in further with the new decoder.
It seems promise,but i miss possible to use servo motor for K turnouts.
Offline clapcott  
#37 Posted : 18 November 2013 03:08:08(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
FYI, updates/appends made to the following postIDs within this thread

#35 = LED loading
#32 = Power
#29 = Switching functions
#27 = Recomendations - PulseWidth/Periods
#23 = CV34/35 - Port linking for 3Way/DblSwitch
#22 = AddressTable attached
Peter
User is suspended until 30/01/2021 11:18:10(UTC) Goofy  
#38 Posted : 19 November 2013 17:31:07(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,331
If Marklin was me,i would choise this new decoder to registry automatic after protocol MM or DCC instead.
User is suspended until 30/01/2021 11:18:10(UTC) Goofy  
#39 Posted : 20 November 2013 13:00:31(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,331
Sorry...wrong topic! Blushing
User is suspended until 30/01/2021 11:18:10(UTC) Goofy  
#40 Posted : 20 November 2013 19:06:10(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,331
A question about 60821...
Can this extra function for m83 adjustable power with 5 Vdc...??
So there is perhaps possible to use servo motor!?
User is suspended until 30/01/2021 11:18:10(UTC) Goofy  
#41 Posted : 21 November 2013 07:00:42(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,331
Still many questions...
I wonder if i use m83 with tortoise motor, i must buy 4 of 60821 to connect m83.
This may become more expensive to shop like this.
To use tortoise motor with 60821,i must use diods by create half way voltage to power feed motor?
Or will Aunt Marklin produce this model 60821 possible by control DC voltage 5-12 Vdc...???
I have no idea!!
Offline clapcott  
#42 Posted : 21 November 2013 08:46:44(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
A question about 60821...
Can this extra function for m83 adjustable power with 5 Vdc...??
So there is perhaps possible to use servo motor!?


The product catalog (only info we have at the moment) talks about end cutoff motors
This does not match the description of a servo or servo motor.

Peter
Offline clapcott  
#43 Posted : 21 November 2013 09:52:48(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Still many questions...
I wonder if i use m83 with tortoise motor, i must buy 4 of 60821 to connect m83.
This may become more expensive to shop like this.
To use tortoise motor with 60821,i must use diods by create half way voltage to power feed motor?


I do not see the point - just use it as a k83 and add a standard relay.
You can buy 4 relays for the price of a 60821 (Marklin Shop price) and still get change.

the m83 can only source and not sink, so while it can drive a tortoise motor you still have to use a pair of ports PLUS add some creative electronics.

KISS

Peter
User is suspended until 30/01/2021 11:18:10(UTC) Goofy  
#44 Posted : 21 November 2013 09:54:35(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,331
Blushing
User is suspended until 30/01/2021 11:18:10(UTC) Goofy  
#45 Posted : 24 November 2013 18:50:34(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,331
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Still many questions...
I wonder if i use m83 with tortoise motor, i must buy 4 of 60821 to connect m83.
This may become more expensive to shop like this.
To use tortoise motor with 60821,i must use diods by create half way voltage to power feed motor?


I do not see the point - just use it as a k83 and add a standard relay.
You can buy 4 relays for the price of a 60821 (Marklin Shop price) and still get change.

the m83 can only source and not sink, so while it can drive a tortoise motor you still have to use a pair of ports PLUS add some creative electronics.

KISS



I´m not sure if you have right.
60821 is to control DC motor like tortoise which have 12 Vdc.
So far we are just guessing...

Offline clapcott  
#46 Posted : 25 November 2013 06:51:54(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Still many questions...
I wonder if i use m83 with tortoise motor, i must buy 4 of 60821 to connect m83.
This may become more expensive to shop like this.
To use tortoise motor with 60821,i must use diods by create half way voltage to power feed motor?


I do not see the point - just use it as a k83 and add a standard relay.
You can buy 4 relays for the price of a 60821 (Marklin Shop price) and still get change.

the m83 can only source and not sink, so while it can drive a tortoise motor you still have to use a pair of ports PLUS add some creative electronics.

KISS



I´m not sure if you have right.
60821 is to control DC motor like tortoise which have 12 Vdc.
So far we are just guessing...



Anders,

YOU may be guessing , but I AM NOT

I referenced the product catalogue, If I have to spell it out - please read the description of the 60821 on page 145 of the 2013 New Items brochure "197918-01 2013" where it specifically says ...
"It is for using turnout mechanisms with motors with an end shutoff feature in the end stop position"

The tortosise motor is, by design, a stall mechanism which requires/benifits from continuous current when idle (switching motion complete)
Refer "http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/Tortoise.htm"
"Motor stalls at each end of throw—No Cutoff Contacts Necessary."

Should you choose not to use the tortoise in its designed configuration then you need to declare that intention so we know what you are talking about.

Now - where did YOU get the information that "... 60821 is to control DC motor ..." !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Peter
User is suspended until 30/01/2021 11:18:10(UTC) Goofy  
#47 Posted : 25 November 2013 07:47:24(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,331
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Still many questions...
I wonder if i use m83 with tortoise motor, i must buy 4 of 60821 to connect m83.
This may become more expensive to shop like this.
To use tortoise motor with 60821,i must use diods by create half way voltage to power feed motor?


I do not see the point - just use it as a k83 and add a standard relay.
You can buy 4 relays for the price of a 60821 (Marklin Shop price) and still get change.

the m83 can only source and not sink, so while it can drive a tortoise motor you still have to use a pair of ports PLUS add some creative electronics.

KISS



I´m not sure if you have right.
60821 is to control DC motor like tortoise which have 12 Vdc.
So far we are just guessing...



Anders,

YOU may be guessing , but I AM NOT

I referenced the product catalogue, If I have to spell it out - please read the description of the 60821 on page 145 of the 2013 New Items brochure "197918-01 2013" where it specifically says ...
"It is for using turnout mechanisms with motors with an end shutoff feature in the end stop position"

The tortosise motor is, by design, a stall mechanism which requires/benifits from continuous current when idle (switching motion complete)
Refer "http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/Tortoise.htm"
"Motor stalls at each end of throw—No Cutoff Contacts Necessary."

Should you choose not to use the tortoise in its designed configuration then you need to declare that intention so we know what you are talking about.

Now - where did YOU get the information that "... 60821 is to control DC motor ..." !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



I hope this information will help you.
www.digital-plus.de/pdf/b_11100_e.pdf
Scroll down to page.8 and take look at figure.5

"An adapter LA010(similar as 60821) is required for the connection of motorised point drivers.This adapter alters the polarity of the motor connections as required,and renders the use of complex relay circuits unnecessary.Program the outputs used for motorised point drivers to pulse operation,and set the pulse duration so that the motor remains active until the final position is reached."(works same as m83)

Just in case...turnout decoder LS150 works like that and equals with LS100 plus 6 of LA010.
User is suspended until 30/01/2021 11:18:10(UTC) Goofy  
#48 Posted : 27 November 2013 07:28:53(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,331
I wonder...
Will Lenz adapter LA010 fits for decoder m83,by control motor(tortoise motor)?
Lenz turnout decoder LS100 send 15-16 Vac output to the switch motor like Marklins.
So i suppose this adapter would accept to by connect to the decoder m83...?
User is suspended until 30/01/2021 11:18:10(UTC) Goofy  
#49 Posted : 27 November 2013 18:24:14(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,331
Another more question:
If i shall use adapter 60821 to control motor,do i have to use external voltage to connect at decoder m83??
Offline clapcott  
#50 Posted : 27 November 2013 21:16:02(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post

Re 60822 and Specifications for alternatives to "external power for m83/m84"
- "item 60822 will be presented officially soon...." "We can tell you more about this technique, when it is available."
- no specs for alternative for power to allow m83/m84 to work with external power as advertised.

A further reply from Maerklin service when pressed

"60822 will be presented with the new catalogue next month. The item itself should be available in springtime 2014.
There is no alternative to this product. It is necessary for the radio counter-countermeasures."
<I suspect it should be only one counter>

Umm.
on wonders ......
Is this a reference to the pending annual yearbook/catalogue ? - "usually" this annual catalogue does not contain new items !
....

Concurrent with the new catalogue is the posting on the Marklin Database for ...

"Universal supply unit k83/m83/m84"

The reference to k83 resulted in another mail to Marklin, with the following response

"60822 can be used with 60831 or 60841. But with 60830 or 60840 it make no sense to use this electronic."

I do not know if the product database will be updated anytime soon,

As to the "sense to use this electronic" for even the m83/m84, I can only glean that it may have something to do with the baying/daisychain/group protection if using more than 1 unit .. (the 66361/66365 plugs into the m83 OK and works )
From the prod db again ...
"The universal power supply unit is used per group of accessory decoders 1x needed (maximum power consumption is observed) "

The real benefit would appear to be the ability to use with older "conventional" AC transformers. Sounds like a glorified rectifyer

I remain curious about the connections. The "artist impression" in the prod db partially shows 2 connections, one consistent with the 2.5mm DC input but the other as a fixed cable (plug not illistrated)
Peter
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