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Offline pn  
#1 Posted : 05 August 2013 00:32:53(UTC)
pn

Portugal   
Joined: 13/04/2011(UTC)
Posts: 143
Location: Portugal
Hi All,

Do you have any experience with ACME locomotives and passenger cars?
I'm specially interested in knowing your experience with that material on R1 and R2 curves. The ACME catalog states that "All ACME models are built in H0 exact scale; they can run as well on minimum track radius of 450 mm."
Thus, such material would not qualify to run on layouts with R1 and R2 curves (360 mm and 437.5 mm respectively).

The cars are locomotives are true 1:87, like most of Roco's material that in general can handle R1 C track curves (with some overhang effect though but not derailing). Thus, I'm wondering whether the catalog statement is more a recommendation for the sake realism or a real technical issue...

Any feedback or hints on that are highly appreciated. I'm considering purchasing ACME rolling stock that I definitely want to run on my layout but, due to the concerns expressed above, I really didn't decide to make the move yet Confused

By the way, comments and impression on the quality of that material are also welcome.

Thanks in advance.
Regards,
Pedro

Edited by user 06 August 2013 10:17:08(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline mike c  
#2 Posted : 05 August 2013 00:41:32(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 8,244
Location: Montreal, QC
I don't have any ACME locomotives, but I do have a number of SBB, FS and OBB coaches by ACME.
The coaches are exact scale. Depending on the model, this can be between 24cm for an older coach up to 30cm for a modern Intercity coach. The coaches are designed for R2 and higher. I would not attempt to use them (or any other exact scale coach, especially the 30cm ones) on R1 or on R2 if there are trains running on a parallel R1 track, as the coaches will hang over in the curves and may impact with the train on the next track or with catenary masts or signals (if so equipped).

On some of my models, I have modified some details, mainly to permit the close coupling shaft to have unimpeded movement. In most cases, this has not changed the aspect of the coach, other than if viewed closeup. The parts have been small details attached to the coach chassis on one side of the end of the coach which were blocking the shaft from fully extending. The fact that the part is gone cannot be seen from eye level.

One solution that you may wish to consider is to set up a mainline oval around your layout using R3 and higher. You can then run exact scale trains on this new "mainline" while keeping the existing layout as a "regional" or "local" line.

One question, which consist in particular drew your attention to ACME? Perhaps there may be another option.

Regards

Mike C
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pn
Offline pn  
#3 Posted : 05 August 2013 10:04:02(UTC)
pn

Portugal   
Joined: 13/04/2011(UTC)
Posts: 143
Location: Portugal
Hi Mike,

Thank you very much for the good hints.

The consist that drew my attention was the DB IC "Heinrich Der Lowe" (a bit more than 30 cm long each)

My R2 curves are not in a traditional oval layout. Hi have half a curve in R2 (90º) followed by approximately half a meter straight line and then another R2 (90º) that makes the complete 180º of my "larger oval". WOuld that somehow kind of 'soften' the problem?

Regards,
Pedro
Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#4 Posted : 05 August 2013 10:04:59(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,047
As Mike have said any long wagons are likely to cause problems. I have two Italian locomotives with triple bogies I have little doubt they can run on R1 but they don't seem easy to convert to three rails so I haven't used those. I have not measured the size but they look true to scale and when it comes to detail I'll have no hesitation in buying again. Mechanics, I can tell you, I have two and one of them came faulty! I have not done anything about it because not only I've found out months after buying it but also with the cost of international shipping it isn't worth financially to send it back. Hopefully some day I'll fix it otherwise I'll just look at it.
BTW: you can see one of my Acme in my avatar.
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pn
Offline pn  
#5 Posted : 05 August 2013 10:36:21(UTC)
pn

Portugal   
Joined: 13/04/2011(UTC)
Posts: 143
Location: Portugal
Originally Posted by: Iamnotthecrazyone Go to Quoted Post
As Mike have said any long wagons are likely to cause problems. I have two Italian locomotives with triple bogies I have little doubt they can run on R1 but they don't seem easy to convert to three rails so I haven't used those. I have not measured the size but they look true to scale and when it comes to detail I'll have no hesitation in buying again. Mechanics, I can tell you, I have two and one of them came faulty! I have not done anything about it because not only I've found out months after buying it but also with the cost of international shipping it isn't worth financially to send it back. Hopefully some day I'll fix it otherwise I'll just look at it.
BTW: you can see one of my Acme in my avatar.


Thanks.
Indeed, the level of detail of ACME models is very good. My layout is a two rail one, so I would not need to convert the locomotives. Anyway, the ACME catalog has AC models too.
Sorry to hear about your faulty locomotive. May I ask what is wrong with it?
Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#6 Posted : 05 August 2013 14:48:26(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,047
Originally Posted by: pn Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Iamnotthecrazyone Go to Quoted Post
As Mike have said any long wagons are likely to cause problems. I have two Italian locomotives with triple bogies I have little doubt they can run on R1 but they don't seem easy to convert to three rails so I haven't used those. I have not measured the size but they look true to scale and when it comes to detail I'll have no hesitation in buying again. Mechanics, I can tell you, I have two and one of them came faulty! I have not done anything about it because not only I've found out months after buying it but also with the cost of international shipping it isn't worth financially to send it back. Hopefully some day I'll fix it otherwise I'll just look at it.
BTW: you can see one of my Acme in my avatar.


Thanks.
Indeed, the level of detail of ACME models is very good. My layout is a two rail one, so I would not need to convert the locomotives. Anyway, the ACME catalog has AC models too.
Sorry to hear about your faulty locomotive. May I ask what is wrong with it?


If I remember properly it makes a loud grinding noise and jerks when moving. I've never got around to open it to see what the problem is. I think the one in my avatar runs very nicely and the problem one is the other one. Yes they do produce some in AC but the models I want seem to be always in DC, it is not a big deal buying DC locos because I am happy having them as static models and at some stage I will have a DC circuit.
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pn
Offline mike c  
#7 Posted : 05 August 2013 23:55:11(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 8,244
Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: pn Go to Quoted Post
Hi Mike,

Thank you very much for the good hints.

The consist that drew my attention was the DB IC "Heinrich Der Lowe" (a bit more than 30 cm long each)

My R2 curves are not in a traditional oval layout. Hi have half a curve in R2 (90º) followed by approximately half a meter straight line and then another R2 (90º) that makes the complete 180º of my "larger oval". WOuld that somehow kind of 'soften' the problem?

Regards,
Pedro


Pedro, if you are using R2 with a straight track, could you possibly replace this curve with a R3 or R4 without the straight track?
The coaches should be able to handle this, but it might be problematic if you have signals/catenary masts or tunnel portals, etc on the curved sections.

The best way to test would be to take one or two 30 cm coaches and test to see if they can pass other coaches on the adjacent track and whether they clear obstacles.
You can probably find two coaches for around 40-50 EUR each to test, which is cheaper than buying the whole set. LSM and ACME both make coaches that could be added to the set if you decide to go ahead and get it later. As far as I recall, the Heinrich der Loewe Set is the current EC/IC livery of the DBAG.

I have the Avmz108 (ACME52309) and the Bpmz291 coaches from LSM on order. The rest of my coaches are from Roco.
The Roco ones may be better suited to operations on R2 (mechanically).

Regards

Mike C
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pn
Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 06 August 2013 02:39:20(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,466
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
I don't have anything from ACME.

R2 is 437.5 mm with C and M track (only 424.6 mm with K track). 437 is very close to the recommended 450 mm and there should be no problems with C track.

I have heard of Roco control coaches that require parts to be broken off for R1 operation. AFAIK most Roco stuff should handle 360 mm curves.

Märklin 303 mm double stock coaches have a minimum radius of 360 mm, but require 400 mm for S shaped double curves.

It's known that Märklin couplers are too high for non-Märklin rolling stock. I do not use Märklin couplers with most of my non-Märklin rolling stock. A Märklin coupler on a loco connected to non-Märklin rolling stock may also require modification (removal of the metal loop) or replacement (e.g. with Roco universal coupler) to negotiate curves.

Manufacturers often give larger minimum radii to be on the safe side. Smaller radii may work, especially if no S shaped double curves are used.
I found that my Piko coaches can take R2 curves with installed door steps even though Piko give a larger minimum radius for coaches with door steps (I don't have S shaped curves except track connections).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Rinus  
#9 Posted : 06 August 2013 10:43:39(UTC)
Rinus


Joined: 20/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Wageningen, The Netherlands
Hi Pedro,

I use around 12 ACME coaches and some container waggons on my lay-out. I like them alot. They are very detailed, run very smooth and come in a beautifull box. And all that for a fair price.

My layout has a minimum of R3 (k-track). They handle that well. I use them in combination with Roco short couplers. However as stated above I would not recommend them on R2 or R1. As Tom stated: Marklin short couplers is also a no go on these particular models.

Also make sure to change the wheel sets to AC! Or better ask the shop to do it for you.

Regards,

Rinus
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pn
Offline pn  
#10 Posted : 06 August 2013 11:01:38(UTC)
pn

Portugal   
Joined: 13/04/2011(UTC)
Posts: 143
Location: Portugal
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post

Pedro, if you are using R2 with a straight track, could you possibly replace this curve with a R3 or R4 without the straight track?
The coaches should be able to handle this, but it might be problematic if you have signals/catenary masts or tunnel portals, etc on the curved sections.

The best way to test would be to take one or two 30 cm coaches and test to see if they can pass other coaches on the adjacent track and whether they clear obstacles.
You can probably find two coaches for around 40-50 EUR each to test, which is cheaper than buying the whole set. LSM and ACME both make coaches that could be added to the set if you decide to go ahead and get it later. As far as I recall, the Heinrich der Loewe Set is the current EC/IC livery of the DBAG.

I have the Avmz108 (ACME52309) and the Bpmz291 coaches from LSM on order. The rest of my coaches are from Roco.
The Roco ones may be better suited to operations on R2 (mechanically).

Regards

Mike C


Hi Mike. Thanks again for your help on this. Yes, that would be an option but comes with a price... The longer straight track sections of the layout, where I have the main station, would have to be shortened due to the R3 radius. I know, I need to make my mind whether I want not so tight curves and a shorter main station or the tight curves and a longer main station... Unsure The track is not fixes yet so I might do some experiments.

I have already 3 passenger cars from Roco (303 mm long each), from CP (Portuguese Railways). Mechanically they cam handle even R1 but they hang over a lot in curves. They are also OK with my NOCH tunnel portals (a few mm between the car and the portal BigGrin ). From other comments (including your's above) I understood that ACME coaches are mechanically different from Roco and therefore some issues may arise from that.

The Heinrich der Loewe set is an epoch IV one with the cars in cream/green and cream/red livery.
Offline pn  
#11 Posted : 06 August 2013 11:14:30(UTC)
pn

Portugal   
Joined: 13/04/2011(UTC)
Posts: 143
Location: Portugal
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!
I don't have anything from ACME.

R2 is 437.5 mm with C and M track (only 424.6 mm with K track). 437 is very close to the recommended 450 mm and there should be no problems with C track.

I have heard of Roco control coaches that require parts to be broken off for R1 operation. AFAIK most Roco stuff should handle 360 mm curves.

Märklin 303 mm double stock coaches have a minimum radius of 360 mm, but require 400 mm for S shaped double curves.

It's known that Märklin couplers are too high for non-Märklin rolling stock. I do not use Märklin couplers with most of my non-Märklin rolling stock. A Märklin coupler on a loco connected to non-Märklin rolling stock may also require modification (removal of the metal loop) or replacement (e.g. with Roco universal coupler) to negotiate curves.

Manufacturers often give larger minimum radii to be on the safe side. Smaller radii may work, especially if no S shaped double curves are used.
I found that my Piko coaches can take R2 curves with installed door steps even though Piko give a larger minimum radius for coaches with door steps (I don't have S shaped curves except track connections).


Hi Tom,

Yes, from my experience, Roco can handle R1. I have 3 303 mm long passenger cars. Visually the cars hand over a lot in curves but, aside from the aesthetically poor effect, they do it quite well. All the others I have are 1:93.5 from Märklin/Trix/Fleischmann and some 1:87 epoch II cars from Rivarossi and Liliput which are shorter than 303 mm anyway.

I also don't have S shaped curves aside from the ones that result from the turnouts. Thanks for the hint on the short couplers. I use some from Fleischmann (on Fleischmann and Rivarossi CIWL coaches) and like them a lot but with 303 mm coaches I guess I won't even try BigGrin Usually I change the couplers of the locomotives to the ones that better fit the coaches such a locomotive will pull to avoid issues negotiating curves.

Pedro
Offline pn  
#12 Posted : 06 August 2013 11:19:23(UTC)
pn

Portugal   
Joined: 13/04/2011(UTC)
Posts: 143
Location: Portugal
Originally Posted by: Rinus Go to Quoted Post
Hi Pedro,

I use around 12 ACME coaches and some container waggons on my lay-out. I like them alot. They are very detailed, run very smooth and come in a beautifull box. And all that for a fair price.

My layout has a minimum of R3 (k-track). They handle that well. I use them in combination with Roco short couplers. However as stated above I would not recommend them on R2 or R1. As Tom stated: Marklin short couplers is also a no go on these particular models.

Also make sure to change the wheel sets to AC! Or better ask the shop to do it for you.

Regards,

Rinus


Hi Rinus,

Thanks for your comments and view on this. Yes, it's precisely the level of details that drew my attention to the ACME coaches Wink Now I'm really considering if I should buy them as I want the coaches to run on my layout and not for display purposes.

I'm building a 2 rail layout using Trix C track. Actually, im my case, it's when I buy Märklin (and I do it often) that I have to change the wheel sets. My local dealer usually does that for me free of charge.

Pedro
Offline mike c  
#13 Posted : 06 August 2013 18:27:01(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 8,244
Location: Montreal, QC
Pedro,

In regards to Rinus' comments, I have equipped my ACME coaches with the Roco Universal Coupler. It works along the same lines as the Maerklin one, but what I have noticed is that the shaft of the coupler is approximately one mm longer, which means that it protrudes a little further than the Maerklin ones, allowing it to clear the buffers of most coaches. In the case of ACME coaches, I have found that a number of them have coupling shafts that are a little shorter than ideal and the extra mm afforded by the Roco Universal Coupler solves this issue and allows for trouble-free coupling. These couplers are also fully compatible with my LSM and Roco coaches, which are in most cases equipped with Maerklin's 7203.

If you are still in the planning stages of your layout and are worried about radii, I would suggest that you consider migrating to R2 and R3 or greater.

I decided that if I ever get around to designing an actual layout, as opposed to my temporary teppichbahn (floor layout), I would have a "mainline" oval probably R4 and R5 with a local line on the inside of the oval, having the two meet at the station (interchange). For alpine themed layouts, you could also use Bemo narrow gauge for the inner trackage.

I have not had any issues with the original ACME wheelsets on K or C track, but I have to admit I have not run the coach consists for more than a few laps each.

Regards

Mike C
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pn
Offline Rinus  
#14 Posted : 07 August 2013 00:13:01(UTC)
Rinus


Joined: 20/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Wageningen, The Netherlands
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
Pedro,

In regards to Rinus' comments, I have equipped my ACME coaches with the Roco Universal Coupler. It works along the same lines as the Maerklin one, but what I have noticed is that the shaft of the coupler is approximately one mm longer, which means that it protrudes a little further than the Maerklin ones, allowing it to clear the buffers of most coaches. In the case of ACME coaches, I have found that a number of them have coupling shafts that are a little shorter than ideal and the extra mm afforded by the Roco Universal Coupler solves this issue and allows for trouble-free coupling. These couplers are also fully compatible with my LSM and Roco coaches, which are in most cases equipped with Maerklin's 7203.Mike C


The universal couplers indeed are great too. I use the short couplers Roco # 40270 for coaches and the universal Roco # 40395 for waggons. In addition to the advantages mentioned by mike, they are also great handling vertical movement.

Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post

If you are still in the planning stages of your layout and are worried about radii, I would suggest that you consider migrating to R2 and R3 or greater.

I decided that if I ever get around to designing an actual layout, as opposed to my temporary teppichbahn (floor layout), I would have a "mainline" oval probably R4 and R5 with a local line on the inside of the oval, having the two meet at the station (interchange). For alpine themed layouts, you could also use Bemo narrow gauge for the inner trackage.
Mike C


On my present lay-out I use 918 mm as a minimum on visible parts and R3 in hidden sections. For a helix I prefer R4. With 1/87 coaches why compromise on the infrastructure? Its so much more realistic especially with superelevation used correctly. But thats erhaps woth a seperate topic. I admit that is all a matter of taste and therefore personal choice.

Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post

I have not had any issues with the original ACME wheelsets on K or C track, but I have to admit I have not run the coach consists for more than a few laps each.
Mike C


I had a few derailments with DC wheelsets on K-track in areas where it is difficult to get a perfect horizontal allignment. For example in a helix and also in curved switches they tend to drift out.


Rinus
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