I had this for sometime and I am considering the option to repair it. Have a look at the photos. I'll ad some information soon.

If it was mine, I would be treating it as two separate restoration projects. Who knows, there maybe someone out there with a bottom and no top and vice versa..

Hi Alex,

Thanks from pictures of this CCS 800. I will leave the version identification to some experts here who can tell you more. I know only that it has the older type pantographs (Type 4.1) and the versions from 1947 to 1949 had these if I remember right. Those pantographs are from an older version if they are not replica ones. But the lamp surrounding metal bars should be rectangular and not round in the very early versions from 1940's. Golden "CCS 800" should also identify it.

Nice CCS 800 anyway!

Cheers,
Janne

Hello Alex
I have repaired many such CCS 800s in my long years as a Märklin "surgeon"!

This one is yet another occurrence of Dr Frankenstein's intervention and he did not do a good job IMHO!

As you and others noted correctly yours is a newer chassis with an older body rigged on to it.

So that is bad news and good news!

The bad news is that it will probably never be "close to original" as you wish...
You can find the replacement end chassis , but there is no such thing for the middle part: dead end!

The good news is that the part that is broken (the center chassis) for the newer versions is still available from Ritter.
So there is hope
Lastly I even adapted one to a true 1947 older Krok, for which I had to do some minor machining/adaptation to the end chassis.

(BTW, your nose pieces are also missing the contact plates for the bulbs)

So overall I think that it is actually a good situation because the newer version run **much** better that the old ones.

I just think that it will take some very careful thinking and accurate machining to properly attach the body nose pieces to their chassis.
The original version is totally different from the newer versions.
I don't even think there is material on the older bodies to drill/machine the two threaded holes that would fit in the newer chassis ...and vice-versa!!

If needed, I can look into my various exemplars on what the options are.

You may probably have to fabricate studs that would then have to be epoxy-ed in the body.
If you decide to go that way and that you have the proper milling/drilling machine I could provide you with a diagram with accurate measurements.
It will be quoted in mm though, if you need inches, you'll have get the calculator out!

FYI:
In any case, adapting the RITTER reproduction end chassis for the original version is not for the faint of heart!
Because of the metal shrinkage (as it cools down after injection) the holes for the wheels and gears are**never** at the right spot and even worse, they are not even perpendicular to the chassis axis of symmetry!
So the only way to do that job correctly is to fill the repro chassis holes back with bronze rods, then re-machine the chassis properly on a milling machine with two axis precision positioning.


Interesting surgery though...

Niuk, niuk, niuk!

Cheers

Wow! A lot to take by my shrinking brain but that's what I was hopping for

I'll answer both of you in different posts to make it easier.

Yes Dr Frankenstein did a couple of naughty things although I can't blame them because either for deception or was poorly fixed long ago in the 50's 60's. the Zinc pest always show it's ugly face on these crocs. I must say very happily that the body is free from it which is what made it buy it even though (it was a rush buy on an overseas trip) I did not realise the base was wrong but the price was right so no harm is done other than to my pride for not noticing what I was buying. I knew only about the broken part. I have a perfect box too which is the grey/blue type like in Paul's photo. It's been years since I want to do something with it and I would like to do it now or in the medium term

After you've mentioned the contact plates I noticed one of the noses has it.

I would reload one of the photos but there is plenty of material near the end of the nose to drill a hole. In fact they have done it in on end but not in the other??? That means there is the center screw right at the front and the an extra screw near the front on one side which matches one of the two big holes on the frame. For attachment purposes that seem to be quite sufficient to hold the body to the frame but I would prefer something at the back of the nose.

I am warming up to the idea of making two crocs out of it.

It's bad to hear about all the problems I would face with the Ritter end parts. I have a ordinary Ryoby foot drill. I am keen in buying a cheap milling machine and perhaps a lathe or combination. One of the great problems is that while I am very mechanically minded and can do a lot of repair jobs, the work you describe using a milling machine might be too risky to perform on an expensive croc part. What do you think?

The photo shows the extra non original screw

Hi Alex,

Yes you're correct the entire center unit is original V2 and same era as the housings. I'm not exactly sure how the newer 50s frame fit with these earlier 40s parts. I also don't know how the two center frame halves (the one which is partially broken on yours) differs between the 40s and 50s versions as I'm only familiar with the 40s versions. It's possible yours still has the original 40s frames but perhaps whoever did the retrofit also put newer 50s center frame halves as well.

I will say lately collectors have been really putting pressure on original parts for this version of the CCS. If the frames are broken or not original the value is less than half!

Best regards,

Paul

PS. A word of caution and Jacques might be able to validate this but I would think that machining any parts (original or replica) requires a lot of patience and skill. In the case you are machining a replica, the part could be made of a lead alloy which has very poor machining quality and will probably melt or just start to "mush." An original zinc part is also likely to crack from the pressure the mill puts on the part.

I forgot to say that the 50's end that is still attached to the centre seems to be working mechanically well without issues I can spot.

As a first thought I would like to avoid parts that were repaired, that might change according to how desperate I become

I've been thinking I would like first originals but since it is also unlikely I will sell it I'll be happy with reproductions so I'll make a special occasion runner.

Do you have the half of the centre part I need without zinc pest?

Below I'll load some close ups. Dr Frankenstein started operating so I guess now its decided and I am going ahead with at least repairing what I have but I'll be on the look out for correct ends and I will contact ritter to get an answer on the dates they expect to make those pieces. This is probably going to be a very slow process.

Well thank you for your offer! If you are sure you don't want it send me a PM with your terms but if you think you may want to use in future don't worry. Only now I am getting more serious about this repair and I haven searched sufficient for parts to rob you of one you had plans for. I was pondering as well the following options.

One a bit crazy and not original but it could work would be to cast my own part, I think I still have some silicone rubber for high temperatures and a bar of some alloy which was meant to be used for a test on casting wheels but it never happened, I've made plastic castings with a percentage of success but never metal. If I am lucky and manage to cast a good part then I would need help on how to do the precision drilling because on that I have no idea.

The other was -but I need to find my 3015, unless you know- Ritter has a full new, original motor with these 2 centre frames for a late ccs or 3015 that cost $90 Euros. That could get this croc going and presentable until the time I can get a set of good condition V2 ends. The problem with that motor and frame is that I don't know whether the 2 screws on the cab match the holes on this newer frame. If that works it would also get me set on the idea of making a second croc for which I will need the body at a later stage.

Well plenty have been happening but please still look for that part because this may lead to nowhere. I will upload a few photos before the camera runs out of batteries. I'll explain in the next post. or edit this one.

Ok, here is the addition. I did not think I was up to this but your post pushed me to try my first metal melting operation. To keep it sort of short: I made a mold which might have some shortcommings but is within what I can make without spending an awful amount of time and materials. The first four castings were fun but unusable. The fifth one has some problems but may be usable. The problems are what I am pointing out with the pen. The first photo the two tops that hold the pins joining the two centre parts are missing some metal but I think they will hold once I drill from the other end. In the second photo that threaded hole ended up too big because probably the silicon spanded, should I push a brass rod in a bigger hole then drill and tap again?

As I've mentioned before I have no idea on how to drill with precision, will I need the milling machine? Can I use my foot drill to avoid spending extra?

I am happy with the metal I've used (don't remember what it is but it seems strong. I have another piece cooling down in case I had more luck but I doubt it after 1 good of 5.

Probably the best way to deal with thin walls is just to fill the holes on the original and the make the holes yourself in the copy. I had some home experience casting plastics and rubbers but most of the time always short of perfect. As you know it is very time consuming and for certain materials very complicate to deal with air bubbles. Today was my first metal adventure and while not 100 I am very pleased to have done it. It was great fun too.

The sixth casting just came out of the mold, it is slighty worse than the one in the photo but only for very little. I will have a go over the weekend at just drilling this piece with my regular drill with more attention than what I normally use I want a milling machine but it is just more money and space which I'd like to avoid spending.

The metal I had sitting there for about 2 to 3 years so I only vaguely remember (I could easily be wrong) it was meant to melt at around C*280 which seems to be F 536. I couldn't find the high temp silicone which probably went bad and ended up in the garbage but I used a fast acting one which didn't seem to be affected by the heat. I had buckets of water and a fire extinguisher next to me glad they weren't needed. I used a butane plumber's torch and peaches tin with a stick across as a container.

I really thank you for your encouragement because otherwise I may have put it in the too hard basket without even trying.

I have reused most of the metal from the faulty castings. However I would not persist in doing it way too many times because all sort of contaminants might get into the mixture. That's something to keep seriously in mind when you are running just a very small operation which is far from being done under the best conditions. Those contaminants are probably in a great percentage the cause of Marklin and many other brands failure by zinc pest.

I am yet to see a well cared G800 that has suffered from much more than the whitening in the tender. Later SK800 and HR seem to be quite good. But the early ones are the problem. If they are old versions and haven't shown it by now they probably won't. Nevertheless you have to be much more careful because it might not be visible but if it suffers from it in a low degree a hard knock against something might make the casting crack a lot more easily than expected.

By the way, the crack in my original casting is more likely to have been caused by bad handling of the articulate loco rather than zinc pest. The area was already a weak point because of the shape of the part and not a lot force is needed to break it.

Yes I am following it and really enjoying your thread.
Could you give us a picture of your mold just before the pour please?

Regards...Chook.

Looks great...I see you're starting to realize the importance of venting with air holes when casting metal I think that's going to make all the difference and bring you that perfect part that comes out of the mold with very little machining required. Don't be afraid also to cut air holes and vents after the mold is made with a sharp knife or scalpel.

Keep up the great work! Seeing these photos and updates is exciting

Paul

Sounds like you've got it figured out. I bet you're right it's better to fill those in with some clay or wax so you don't have to worry about the thin walls filling in. Also making sure you're casting at a high enough temperature is helpful so that the metal hasn't partially solidified by the time it reaches these cavities, that might help as well.

Having a precision drill or milling machine is a huge help. The Proxxon MF70 combines both of these and can be converted to CNC relatively easily. I don't own a Proxxon but I've heard good things about them.

Here is the Proxxon if you haven't seen this model yet:

http://www.proxxontools....viewPrd.asp?idproduct=63

I look forward to seeing the results.

Best regards,

Paul