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Offline jkoellmer  
#1 Posted : 06 April 2013 16:42:30(UTC)
jkoellmer


Joined: 24/03/2004(UTC)
Posts: 89
Location: Bedford, NH
Hello all,
I have a well-used but revered Marklin ICE-1 "Elizabeth" 3750 train set that I like to run on my Swiss digital layout. Yesterday, it faltered while running, then went to full throttle, and gave off a burning smell in the front motor unit. I quickly took it off the layout, let it rest, and re-tried running... same consequence. I cannot control it with my usual digital controller (IB). I suspect that the original Marklin decoder gave up the ghost and the motor is operating as it would on an analog layout?? Anyhow, I have a spare ESU Lokpilot V4 that I would like to install in it, but believe I will also need to replace the PC boards (front and rear?). There is only one motor (front), but a device in the rear driving car controls the lighting, forward and reverse. Has anyone had any experience in upgrading this unit? Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks

Jeff
Offline Lollo  
#2 Posted : 06 April 2013 23:44:04(UTC)
Lollo

New Zealand   
Joined: 22/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 365
Hi Jeff,

Before you replace the decoder, make sure the motor is absolutely clean from carbon deposits. It is not unusual for a motor to go up in smoke, and even the plastic parts of the armature can melt.
With out knowing the motor is 100% ok, you risk damaging the new decoder.

Cheers,
Brian.
Brian
Yaasan's Desktop Station/Railuino & Marklin MS2, DB Era III/IV Diesel & Steam, ESU Loksound/Lokpilot & Lokprogrammer, Marklin mSD, Tam Valley Depot Octopus III Servo Controller.
Offline mike c  
#3 Posted : 08 April 2013 18:51:58(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Jeff,

The 3750 has a 6080 decoder. I have not had any burnout problems with my older decoders, only with newer fx and mfx socket ones, which could be easily replaced.
You should be able to determine whether the decoder has burnt or whether the burnt smell comes from the rotor, brushes or wires. Are there burn marks on the decoder?

I would expect that a burnt decoder would simply cease operating and not operate as an analog unit. Have you tried changing the address settings (dip switches) and see if it will operate on another address.
Try setting switch 1 to on and the rest to off.
The unit in the rear is probably a relay that allows the trainset to select the power from the front slider. This would probably remain if you were to replace the main decoder so that the power still comes from the leading slider.

How close is Bedford to Intervale? Can you take the lok to Hartmann and have them check it out?

Regards

Mike C
Offline jkoellmer  
#4 Posted : 09 April 2013 17:00:10(UTC)
jkoellmer


Joined: 24/03/2004(UTC)
Posts: 89
Location: Bedford, NH
Thanks for the advice everyone. I have tried thoroughly cleaning the motor and brushes with electrical contact spray, removing light bulbs and nothing seems to work. Early this morning, I put the front unit on the layout and applied power. It ran at full speed, regardless of the dip switch settings. I wanted to see if the lighting electronics would work, so I un-soldered one of the motor connections, coupled the rear unit, and put them back on the track. It didn't take off (as expected), but did short out the system. I then tried un-soldering several of the rear unit connections to both the light board and the reversing-unit/detector. I only succeeded in eliminating the short when un-soldering the red wire leading to the connecting coupler (to the front unit). It is curious that the front unit motor no longer runs at all, since re-soldering the motor wires. I don't smell anything "burning" anymore either??. I bench-tested the motor by connecting it to an independent 12v DC power source and it seems to run fine. I'm really suspicious of the decoder now?? I'm not sure if I will be able to just wire in a LokPilot V4 in place of the old decoder. Has anyone done that? Wiring to the rear unit could be a problem as this also lights the cars, I believe. Thanks again and please keep the advice coming. This is a great help to me!
Jeff
Offline jkoellmer  
#5 Posted : 12 April 2013 14:34:29(UTC)
jkoellmer


Joined: 24/03/2004(UTC)
Posts: 89
Location: Bedford, NH
Good News... I just tore out the electronics in both cars and replaced them with a LokPilot V4, and wanted to let others know that it can be done. It's not quite the same in operation, as I "hard wired" the directional lights by removing the red lamp from the driving car, and the white lamp from the trailing car, but I never run the unit in reverse on my layout anyway! The motor works fine and seems to have better start-up and slow-moving control. I wired all the lights to the F0 function and now plan to update the car lighting for LED lamps to reduce the draw on the new decoder. All in all, I am pleased that I won't have to use the ICE for a static display. Thanks again for your help!
Jeff
Offline jkoellmer  
#6 Posted : 18 April 2013 00:29:32(UTC)
jkoellmer


Joined: 24/03/2004(UTC)
Posts: 89
Location: Bedford, NH
Hello everyone,
Well, I'm not out of the woods with this project yet... I find that the LokPilot V4 decoder seems to control the motor well, but may not be powerful enough to control the car lighting? At least that is what I'm now suspecting. I replaced all the conventional bulbs in my two passenger coaches, dining car and end car, with LED strips, ACWs and resistors. I then wired the standard 2-pole couplers to the "headlamp" function out of the decoder and the loco ground. My objective is to turn the coach lights on with the headlamp lights. However, I can only get the first car in the rake to work properly. As soon as I connect a second car (using the ICE couplers), that car will not light. I first thought it was a polarity problem, but have since swapped leads, light strips, cars, resistors and everything else I can think of that may be causing this problem. i've also noticed a pronounced flickering, or pulsing, of the headlamp in the leading loco when the lamp is on, even without a second car or trailing loco hooked to it?? This was observed before the original decoder failed and I thought it may just have ben inherent in the ICE-1. Anyone have any further suggestions? Thanks in advance.
Jeff
Offline biedmatt  
#7 Posted : 18 April 2013 13:20:19(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Wiring the car lamps with one side to chassis ground (essentially the track rails) will cause flicker in the lamps. The only way to correct that is to wire to the blue wire instead of ground.
When you connect the second car, you say it does not light, does the car before it go out too? If so, the load is too great, but I can't imagine that with just two cars and LEDs for light. If not, then something is wrong in the wiring to the added car or in the car you are coupling to.

I have this set and have kicked around putting sound in it, but as I'm Era 3, it doesn't seem to happen. I have thought about what I would do though:
1) Keep the axle switch in the unpowered loco to operate the head and tail lamps just as it came from Marklin. Power for those lamps would always come from the slider in that unit.
2) Keep one of the coupler connections as the rear slider (probably already is) and use ESU's change over relay (51966) to mount a 21 pin decoder and control where the power feeds the decoder. This way the lead slider is always the loco power.
3) Use ESU's 51963 miniature relay to switch the center rail to the second connection in the couplers and provide power to the car lamps. The relay coil would be operated on decoder aux 1 so the lights would be switchable. Since the car lamp power switched through the relay contact would be center rail and not through the decoder, you can use the ground connection in each car for the other side of the lamps and not get flicker

This would achieve what I would want and I would be able to use the factory couplers with the two electrical connections.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by biedmatt
Offline jkoellmer  
#8 Posted : 18 April 2013 14:38:45(UTC)
jkoellmer


Joined: 24/03/2004(UTC)
Posts: 89
Location: Bedford, NH
Thanks Biedmatt..
You have given me some good suggestions. I was not aware of the ESU relay devices and will certainly check them out! I had planned to ask our US ESU rep for ideas as well.
Jeff
Offline biedmatt  
#9 Posted : 20 April 2013 19:18:17(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
A cool day and nothing from the postman have conspired together and I have started on the conversion. This is actually my son's 3770 ICE-1 set. He runs it more than I do my 3750 set.

What I have learned:
1. Red is indeed the power feed from the rear (unpowered) unit to the front (powered) unit.
It passes through the coaches without any connection to the coach lamps.
2. Yellow is the feed backward to the coach lights and head/taillamps in the unpowered unit.
3. Each coach has a seperate interior lamp connection to ground via one truck set.

This is the unmodified unpowered unit.

UserPostedImage

This is the electrical changes I have performed to the unpowered unit, relocating the connection points for the orange and brown wires. The rear slider is now sole power supply to the unpowered unit's lamps. The rear slider will also still feed power to the powered unit via the red coupler connection. Through the 51966 slider changeover, power will be supplied to the decoder from the forward slider depending on direction of travel. Now I can use the yellow coupler wire to switch the coach lamps on and off and still have functional lamps in the unpowered unit. No modification is required to the coaches. Very good news as I have about 16 intermediate cars.

UserPostedImage

This is where I am at the moment with the powered unit. The 20mm speaker is installed and the old decoder removed.

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

I have the 51966 slider changeover/21 pin decoder mount board and 51963 relay ordered. From this point it will be a simple decoder install using the instructions from the 51966 circuit board. The 51963 relay will switch the power to the coach lamps via the yellow coupler wire from the (live) slider as I described above, eliminating lamp flicker without the need for the blue connection from the decoder. Also good news as the coupler only provides two electrical connections.

I will post more pictures once I have the items in hand.

Edited by user 21 April 2013 15:51:13(UTC)  | Reason: Clarify some steps

Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by biedmatt
Offline mmervine  
#10 Posted : 21 April 2013 01:50:25(UTC)
mmervine

United States   
Joined: 30/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,883
Location: Keene, NH
Thanks for posting this...looking forward to pictures of the finished project!
Märklin C-track, Marklin Digital & ECoS, multi-era French & Swiss
http://www.ete-ene.org/m...mervines-layout-gallery/
Offline biedmatt  
#11 Posted : 26 April 2013 02:21:13(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
I've received the 51966 changeover circuit board and have made some additional progress. I am still waiting for the small relay and sound decoder, but I have been able to get it close to finished using a standard LokPilot to test the function of the changeover board and my wiring.
I purchased a rear (unpowered) unit circuit board so I could keep the function of switching between the slider and pantograph for the front as well as the rear unit. You do not really need this, but it was something I wanted.
I have used ESU's standard color code for the wiring.

This is the back side of the changeover circuit board. On the bottom left is the signal ground (blue) for both lights in the powered unit. The yellow goes to the red lamp in the powered unit. On the top right is the white wire that feeds to the headlamp in the powered unit. The blue on the top right is the signal ground that will go to one side of the micro relay that will switch the coach lamps on and off. The orange and grey at center, bottom left are the motor leads. Orange is (+) and grey is (-). I took them to the circuit board so I could use the existing motor leads that were removed from the original decoder. The black wire bridging both "left" terminals on the top left is the wire that ultimately goes to both rails. It goes to a point on the circuit board that ends at one of the screws to mount the board. The red wire on the top left is the feed from the rear slider. The red wire just to the right of that, by the terminal marked "right", is the slider from the front unit. The red wire at about center top is soldered to the point that feeds the red to the decoder. I will use this wire as the hot feed to the micro relay. It will switch through the relay and then feed power to the coupler yellow wire, lighting the coach lamps. Not shown is the connection to the speaker. They are the two solder pads just above the orange and grey motor leads.

UserPostedImage

This is the front side of the circuit board. The board did not provide a solder pad for Aux 1, so I soldered this green wire to that point. It will be the switched wire that feeds the coil of the micro relay along with the blue wire described above, located top right in that picture. The red wire described above, at about center top will switch through the relay to the yellow wire of the coupler, lighting the coach lamps.

UserPostedImage

This is an overall shot of the top of the Marklin circuit board that would normally have been in the unpowered unit. This is a spare I bought from some one parting out a 3770 set. The connection at the top left is the feed from the front unit slider. This is Marklin's wire that was desoldered from the original decoder. Below that at the bottom left is the wire that feeds to the front slider connection on the changeover board. This is the wire that went to the terminal by the word "right". Below that at the very bottom left is the red wire from the coupler. It goes to the rear unit's slider. That circuit passes through the Marklin circuit board to the bottom right side. The red wire soldered there is the red wire that was at the very top left of the 51966 changeover board. The point marked "M-" is the grey motor lead from the changeover board. If you follow the foil you will see it goes to green wire feeding the motor. This green is the original marklin wire. The point marked "M+" is the orange wire from the changeover decoder. That foil leads to the original blue wire Marklin used for the motor. Just to the right of the "k" in "blk" is the black wire from the changeover board. That foil goes to the mounting screw at the top left.

UserPostedImage

These next two pictures just show a closer detail of the connections at each end of the Marklin circuit board.

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

I still have four connections to make to the micro relay. The green Aux 1 output and the blue wire that will operate the relay coil and the red wire that is center rail power that will switch to yellow coupler for the coach lamps. I have proven the green and blue work by temporarily solder a lamp in and switching it on and off. I also used a lamp to prove the red wire soldered to the top center of the changeover board will be live and will get switched to the slider that is at the front depending on direction of travel.

A lot to wade through, but if you want to do it, just follow my directions and do each connection one at a time.

Matt
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by biedmatt
Offline jkoellmer  
#12 Posted : 28 April 2013 17:15:16(UTC)
jkoellmer


Joined: 24/03/2004(UTC)
Posts: 89
Location: Bedford, NH
Thanks Matt, for all of your helpful advice, instruction and pictures. You certainly proved that this can be done! I'm waiting for an ESU relay myself and hoping that it solves my problem. It's almost too late for me to re-create the original wiring in the powered and unpowered units as I have already planned to run the train in one direction only... but good luck with your conversion. I'll post another reply when I get my solution working.
Jeff
Offline biedmatt  
#13 Posted : 30 April 2013 00:28:06(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
The now completed decoder installation with the micro relay.

UserPostedImage

Works like a charm. I am quite happy with how it turned out.

Wiring diagram for the 51966 changeover circuit board/21 pin decoder mount:

UserPostedImage
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline jkoellmer  
#14 Posted : 01 May 2013 21:27:07(UTC)
jkoellmer


Joined: 24/03/2004(UTC)
Posts: 89
Location: Bedford, NH
Fantastic, Matt. Congratulations on a job well done. I'm glad it worked out and thank you for sharing your technique and progress with the forum.
Jeff
Offline biedmatt  
#15 Posted : 19 April 2014 11:23:07(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Bump to keep alive so PJMärklin can use the conversion instructions for his 3071 and ICE.

It appears ten pages is the max for the digital section and then old posts appear to be lost. Is this correct? This thread was two posts away from the edge.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline PJMärklin  
#16 Posted : 19 April 2014 12:28:01(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,206
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Bump to keep alive so PJMärklin can use the conversion instructions for his 3071 and ICE.

It appears ten pages is the max for the digital section and then old posts appear to be lost. Is this correct? This thread was two posts away from the edge.


Hello again Matt,

Thanks again for the great help since I am new to ESU

Regards,

PJ
Offline PJMärklin  
#17 Posted : 13 December 2014 08:32:27(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,206
Location: Hobart, Australia
Oops!, need to re-post
Offline PJMärklin  
#18 Posted : 13 December 2014 11:01:00(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,206
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post
Oops!, need to re-post


Hi Märklineers,

I have finally converted my ICE 2 to a new digital decoder using Matt's information

which is seen at : https://www.marklin-user...nversion.aspx#post395999

The tricky wafer -thin LED plate is discussed also at : https://www.marklin-user...SU-decoder.aspx#post3627

Here is the story next post :


Regards,

PJ



thanks 2 users liked this useful post by PJMärklin
Offline PJMärklin  
#19 Posted : 13 December 2014 11:02:35(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,206
Location: Hobart, Australia


thanks 6 users liked this useful post by PJMärklin
Offline Johnvr  
#20 Posted : 14 December 2014 08:47:31(UTC)
Johnvr

South Africa   
Joined: 03/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,269
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
PJ,

What a great video !
Good choice of music too.
I really enjoyed watching this story.

Just shows what some TLC can do on the older Marklin locs, and bring them back to life.

Regards,BigGrin
John
Offline PJMärklin  
#21 Posted : 14 December 2014 11:16:49(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,206
Location: Hobart, Australia
Hello John,

Thank you for your kind comments,

Regards and Best Wishes for a Happy Christmas,


PJ
Offline biedmatt  
#22 Posted : 14 December 2014 13:04:05(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Nice video PJ, she looks and sound great. It demonstrates there are so many very nice recent releases from Marklin that could be as good as any made today with a simple electronics upgrade. Well done!
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline PJMärklin  
#23 Posted : 15 December 2014 10:00:37(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,206
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Nice video PJ, she looks and sound great. It demonstrates there are so many very nice recent releases from Marklin that could be as good as any made today with a simple electronics upgrade. Well done!


Thanks again for all your help Matt.

Next is the 3071 !

Best Wishes for a Happy Christmas,

Regards,

Philip

Offline PJMärklin  
#24 Posted : 15 July 2020 14:43:30(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,206
Location: Hobart, Australia
Sorry, just another Bump to keep 3071 conversion (in midst of at last !) alive OhMyGod
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