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Offline Martin T  
#1 Posted : 18 February 2013 19:30:35(UTC)
Martin T

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 859
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Hi folks!

The M-rail switch 5202 is a part of almost every layout made for M-rail.
As long as you have the normal blue switchbox, or possible some own toggle switches in a panel you can make the switch operate perfectly. The human brain has a way of learning how to overcome small problems and use the tweaks even without knowing. I for instance realized that I was always switching my switches twice to make sure it switches properly.

BUT! Going over to computerdrive via K83 decoders change things around. It has no actual feedback of the switch position, so now the switch really has to operate perfect every time. Especially if you are going for automatic train operation. Even more so if your layout consist from 20, or even 50 or 100 switches. At a certain point some actions has to be taken to reduce the failure rate of the switches.

I spent a lot of time analysing and checking for solutions, which I intend to publish in this thread over a couple of weeks. Some material is written, but some needs to be typed in to my computer first. If my wife is nice with me and the kids don't get me into too much trouble, then this thread will be completed in a few weeks. If not.. Well... We'll see.

So here's how it all starts: OhMyGod

UserPostedImage

Edited by moderator 18 December 2013 08:36:59(UTC)  | Reason: Topic made 'Sticky'

Regards / Martin T
Click your way over to me in Marbrodal in Sweden: http://www.xn--mrklintg-0zaq.se/index_e.html
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Offline steventrain  
#2 Posted : 18 February 2013 21:32:00(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 32,846
It could take more that three weeks.Bored
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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Offline Yumgui  
#3 Posted : 18 February 2013 22:01:03(UTC)
Yumgui

United States   
Joined: 20/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,659
Location: Paris, France
Great pile Martin !

I am curious to see what you are going to do with it ... ^^ ThumpUp

Yum BigGrin
If your M track is rusted ... DON'T throw it out !
Working on : http://www.arep.fr/en/#/welcome
Inspired by : http://www.nakedmarklin.com/ ... I am not alone in this universe, phew.
Offline kbvrod  
#4 Posted : 18 February 2013 22:13:10(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi all,
I pray to the train gods your not using M oil on those!Scared

Dr D
Offline xxup  
#5 Posted : 18 February 2013 22:42:19(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,035
Location: Australia
Springs Cool
Adrian
UserPostedImage
Australia flag by abFlags.com
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Offline Paul59  
#6 Posted : 18 February 2013 23:38:56(UTC)
Paul59

United Kingdom   
Joined: 25/08/2012(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: South East
Now that's my sort of workbench Martin.

I will be reading this thread with interest. One of the main problems I have with points is that the changing mechanism works perfectly but the actual rails stick and don't move. This is annoying as a look at the lantern indicates the point has changed but then the train takes the wrong route. Or - even worse, the rails suddenly unstick when the train is halfway across and the whole lot derails.

I have only three points which are hidden and one has started sticking. I am going to experiment with some silicon/PTFE dry lubricant to see if it helps. The springs are fine, it's just that the switch rails stick - tapping the point with a finger will often get them to flick across.
Looking at that pile of points you've got there some of them are bound to do this so let us know if you come up with a solution please.

Looking forward to your findings.

Paul
Marklin HO using M track. ECOS 50200 software updated to version 3.7.0
Offline kbvrod  
#7 Posted : 19 February 2013 01:49:36(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi all,

>I will be reading this thread with interest. One of the main problems I have with points is that the changing mechanism works perfectly but the actual rails stick and don't move. This is annoying as a look at the lantern indicates the point has changed but then the train takes the wrong route. Or - even worse, the rails suddenly unstick when the train is halfway across and the whole lot derails.<

Paul,there is a pivot point in the M-track turnouts.I is a a pin/rivet that lets the points move.That IS the sticking point!

>I have only three points which are hidden and one has started sticking. I am going to experiment with some silicon/PTFE dry lubricant to see if it helps. The springs are fine, it's just that the switch rails stick - tapping the point with a finger will often get them to flick across.<

I give it a rest.

Dr D


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Offline Mark5  
#8 Posted : 19 February 2013 01:52:38(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,204
Location: Montreal
Originally Posted by: Martin T Go to Quoted Post
Hi folks!

The M-rail switch 5202 is a part of almost every layout made for M-rail.
As long as you have the normal blue switchbox, or possible some own toggle switches in a panel you can make the switch operate perfectly. The human brain has a way of learning how to overcome small problems and use the tweaks even without knowing. I for instance realized that I was always switching my switches twice to make sure it switches properly.

BUT! Going over to computerdrive via K83 decoders change things around. It has no actual feedback of the switch position, so now the switch really has to operate perfect every time. Especially if you are going for automatic train operation. Even more so if your layout consist from 20, or even 50 or 100 switches. At a certain point some actions has to be taken to reduce the failure rate of the switches.

I spent a lot of time analysing and checking for solutions, which I intend to publish in this thread over a couple of weeks. Some material is written, but some needs to be typed in to my computer first. If my wife is nice with me and the kids don't get me into too much trouble, then this thread will be completed in a few weeks. If not.. Well... We'll see.
.....


Thanks for sharing!!
I will be following this thread closely.
- Mark



Interested in history of DB, DR and FS circa 1955 to 1965. Fan of signals, catenary, stations and yards.
Father of four girls running an exhibition layout, the Mädchenbahn--
https://www.marklin-user...rce.ashx?i=30519&b=1
Large version of my present avatar-- https://www.marklin-user...rce.ashx?i=29910&b=1
Source of previous avatar in "zoomify" detail-- http://bit.ly/1QqMgL0
Offline kweekalot  
#9 Posted : 19 February 2013 08:32:48(UTC)
kweekalot

Netherlands   
Joined: 27/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,273
Location: Holland
Hi Martin,
Great thread indeed !! ThumpUp

The good news is that the springs for M-rails are since summer 2012 again supplied by Marklin under item number "E353080" (which contains 20 springs).

A total cleaning of the inside of the points, such as removing dust and grease from moving parts and solenoids, also greatly improved their operation. My 65 year old (solid center rail) points operate like new again !

Marco

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage
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Offline Martin T  
#10 Posted : 19 February 2013 12:54:59(UTC)
Martin T

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 859
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Hi again!

Thank you for the input! Smile
No, I promise! No oil in the switches for sure! The bottle just happend to be on the table when I took the photo. Razz

Another thing. This thread will only apply for switches with item number 5202. Other switches has a different look and set up of moving parts and the tests and maintenance I present may, or may not work as intended on other items.
Let's continue...

What and how to check turnouts before you buy them
Check used turnouts carefully before you buy them. If they look good, straight and level and have the protective metal cover still under them, then they are most probably in good condition. I also use a simple test to verify the condition of the switch. I have a voltage controlled DC power supply set to 13VDC. At this voltage the switch should operate at first try, both ways. If that goes well, any problems that might occur later are recoverable. I would not recommend to buy it if does not operate at 13VDC and/or is bent and is missing the rear cover.

Small vs large semaphore
Avoid buying turnouts with the older type large semaphore. The modern passenger coaches are longer (more accurate 1:87) than those produced in the 50s and 60s (more like 1:100 scale). The new long coaches have a lot more of the detailing under them, which makes them lower and thereby hit the large semaphore on turn and derail.



Semaphores

Edited by user 20 February 2013 08:43:25(UTC)  | Reason: Removed the hint not to water wash. Washing is explained further down in the thread

Regards / Martin T
Click your way over to me in Marbrodal in Sweden: http://www.xn--mrklintg-0zaq.se/index_e.html
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Offline M Gleis User  
#11 Posted : 19 February 2013 15:46:07(UTC)
M Gleis User


Joined: 19/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 17
Location: France
Dear all

Concerning my M Gleis switches , I have a different approach :

1) First I start the remove the coil and all the mechanics and put this in the Ultra Wave bath
(inside the coil is dirt and this for me the only way to clean)

2) The switches itself get wash with with normal liquid (kitchen)

3) I Immediately dry it with a Hair dryer (to prevent rust ..)

4) I assemble everything and look carefully for bent parts (eventually a new spring)

5) THE TEST : I apply a DC voltage to check if he operates easily
The less the voltage can be the better it is and proves for me that the mechanical part is OK

Normally K83 decoder output 18V DC , in my pass/fail test I try to go as low as 10-12 V and still need to have a good switching operation


5) I put digital decoder and LED for the lantern (Optional) and I rerun the test again .

Again for me oil and other lubrication when dust is added act in long term like a glue .

Now to have a position detection would be great, I thought the same
I thought to put optical detection under the switch , .. but it would be interesting to do but to equip many of it ??

Since i have no issues anymore my respecting the procedure above , I purchased without this idea.

but sharing any idea would be great


François
CS2 60214 h/w 4.33 : Firmware : 1.6.4(3) GFP 1.38
Märklin M-Gleis,
Train -Dekoders : Märklin, Zimo
Win-Digipet 2009 Win XP Pro Sp2
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Offline Martin T  
#12 Posted : 19 February 2013 16:05:01(UTC)
Martin T

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 859
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Wow! OhMyGod

Ultrasonic cleaner? That was cool. ThumpUp
Seems to be kind of costy just to clean turnouts. I guess you have it for another purpose too, or?
It is probably the optimal cleaning solution, but maybe not available for very many "normal users". Unsure

Besides the way you use water with accelerated drying and in Ultrasonic cleaner, I still think it is a very good recommendation for most people not to use water as a cleaning liquid. Most of the turnouts I bought second hand over the last 10 years is not working due to previous water wash and corrosion resulting.

The cans I use..

Edited by user 26 February 2013 13:21:19(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Regards / Martin T
Click your way over to me in Marbrodal in Sweden: http://www.xn--mrklintg-0zaq.se/index_e.html
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Offline M Gleis User  
#13 Posted : 19 February 2013 18:17:22(UTC)
M Gleis User


Joined: 19/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 17
Location: France
HI Martin

thanks for the right word
you have very cheap ones, mine was middle class one for 50 $

honestly i put everyting inside expect staff with painting
so motor blocks , my glasses .. cleaning is really perfect

back to the switches, some of mine where old ,
i noted a huge difference of ease of movement of the arm inside the coil

François
CS2 60214 h/w 4.33 : Firmware : 1.6.4(3) GFP 1.38
Märklin M-Gleis,
Train -Dekoders : Märklin, Zimo
Win-Digipet 2009 Win XP Pro Sp2
Offline kbvrod  
#14 Posted : 19 February 2013 19:57:20(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi Martin,all,

>Ultrasonic cleaner? That was cool. ThumpUp
Seems to be kind of costy just to clean turnouts. I guess you have it for another purpose too, or?
It is probably the optimal cleaning solution, but maybe not available for very many "normal users". Unsure <

My first unltrasonic cleaner,I got from my dentist as he was getting new ones.I have also seen them on eBay for good prices.
There are many uses in MMR for them,...

>Besides the way you use water with accelerated drying and in Ultrasonic cleaner, I still think it is a very good recommendation for most people not to use water as a cleaning liquid. Most of the turnouts I bought second hand over the last 10 years is not working due to previous water wash and corrosion resulting. <

François,has the right idea.I recently cleaned a Z-scale BR 103 that had not seen daylight in 30+ years(!) I bathed it in iso,then used both a hairdryer and compressed air(my airbrush) to get the liquid out of the tight spaces and then under a lamp to speed the drying process.This can and should be repeated.

Lubrication:use a good quality grease and keep it light but work it into the area through movement.

Dr D

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Offline Martin T  
#15 Posted : 20 February 2013 08:30:38(UTC)
Martin T

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 859
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Hi!

Yeah, I found an Ultrasonic cleaner here in Sweden at $100. I thought they were much more expensive, so I seriously consider buying one now. Sounds like a good idea. ThumpUp

I already have a air-de-humidifier mashine for the model railway, so why not also a Ultrasonic cleaner? All I need to do is to find a reasonable explanation for my wife Tongue

Let's continue with a (kind of simple) matrix of common problems and solutions.
Regards / Martin T
Click your way over to me in Marbrodal in Sweden: http://www.xn--mrklintg-0zaq.se/index_e.html
Offline Martin T  
#16 Posted : 20 February 2013 08:41:04(UTC)
Martin T

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 859
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Common problems and the methods how to overcome them
The solenoid operates sluggish, lacking power and only sometimes makes the full travel
Solution: 1) Adjustment of the screws

The solenoid seems to work fine and goes “click-click”, but the turnout doesn’t switch position.
Solution: 1) Cleaning 2) Adjustment of the moving parts 3) Replace the spring

The turnout doesn’t respond at all when switched, or seems to short circuit the transformer
Solution: 1) Repair or replace cables

The lamp inside the semaphore is not lighted even though the turnout is powered
Solution: 1) Replace bulb 2) Repair or replace cables

Adjustment of screws
The motor that drives the turnout is really a 2-coil, 2-position solenoid. It moves a plunger made of a magnetic material, such as iron. The solenoid is fixed to the rail in both ends, whereas one of the ends is fixed by a screw. Untighten both screws, but only very little, like ½-1 revolution. Operate the turnout normally by grounding one of the blue cables. It should now work. Then tighten the screws again, but only very gently.

UserPostedImage


Cleaning
I’ve tested a lot of different methods of cleaning M-tracks and thought up til yesterday I found the easiest and most efficient way. For this I use two bottles of spray. One of them is “Electronic Cleaner” which contains mostly Isopropanol. The other one is simply pressurized air on a can “Aerosol”. Spray cleaner on the areas shown in the picture. Wait a 20 seconds and then blow dry with the Aerosol. Ready! However, François presented the Ultrasonic cleaning option and process. It's most likely both faster and much more efficient than my method. However, you need the machine first... If some dirt remains after cleaning described above, then use instead a soft toothbrush and Isopropanol. Clean the top holding the switch upside down and vice verse. If you have problems to find pure Isopropanol as a product in the shop, you can buy an additive for gasoline, which in Sweden is called K-sprit. It contains from more than 95% Isopropanol. The purpose with the additive is to prevent water condensation in the carburator and simplifies starting of the engine. Based on that you should be able to ask i a normal shop and get the right product.Use a can of high-pressure air to blow away any access Isopropanol after cleaning.

Locations which needs special attention during cleaning

Here is how to replace the spring
The spring which connects the moving part of the solenoid with the rail is a sensitive device. The spring has in many cases been modified, shortened or pulled apart by someone who thought they thereby could solve an operating problem. Visit your local Märklin dealer and buy new springs. Make sure you get Märklin original spring.

Adjustment of movable parts
If you are unlucky, then someone in the passed has tried to improve the performance of the Märklin turnouts by bending the movable parts. It is of course against all logic that a new random looking shape of the metal parts in the turnout should be better than the original shape which Märklin engineered over the passed 50 years. Anyway. Look at the picture of how it should look and try to restore it the best you can.

Turnout mechanics on a new/unused track

Replacing the cables
The cables, yellow and blue, can break internally if someone has pulled them real hard. If you get no reaction from the turnout when powered, then try to power directly on to the solenoid. If it now operates, then the cables need to be replaced. Desolder the cables using a 25W soldering iron. Be very careful not to overheat the soldering points, while the plastic of the solenoid is very sensitive to heat. Connect new cables as the picture shows.

How to cables should be connected
Regards / Martin T
Click your way over to me in Marbrodal in Sweden: http://www.xn--mrklintg-0zaq.se/index_e.html
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Offline Martin T  
#17 Posted : 20 February 2013 08:56:41(UTC)
Martin T

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 859
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted by: Paul59 Go to Quoted Post
Now that's my sort of workbench Martin.

I will be reading this thread with interest. One of the main problems I have with points is that the changing mechanism works perfectly but the actual rails stick and don't move. This is annoying as a look at the lantern indicates the point has changed but then the train takes the wrong route. Or - even worse, the rails suddenly unstick when the train is halfway across and the whole lot derails.

I have only three points which are hidden and one has started sticking. I am going to experiment with some silicon/PTFE dry lubricant to see if it helps. The springs are fine, it's just that the switch rails stick - tapping the point with a finger will often get them to flick across.
Looking at that pile of points you've got there some of them are bound to do this so let us know if you come up with a solution please.

Looking forward to your findings.

Paul


Paul,

Are you using magnets and reed sensors?
I have in the passed have problems in shadow stations where as the trains only travel in the same direction all the time. The magnets under the locos then seems to magnetize the movable rail tongue, which makes it stick in current position.

Regards / Martin T
Click your way over to me in Marbrodal in Sweden: http://www.xn--mrklintg-0zaq.se/index_e.html
Offline Danlake  
#18 Posted : 20 February 2013 09:21:42(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,499
Hi Martin,

Great text and photos and very good advice.

I also use electrical spray cleaner (plastic safe).

I had issues with the lantern mechanism not moving correctly (getting stuck halfway) and that would for some reason create a short cut and my transformer would shut down. For this reason I decided to remove all bulbs and in the suspect turnouts I actually had to cut the white plastic lever from the lantern (which of course means you can no longer operate the turnout manually). But no more short cutsBigGrin

Brgds - Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
Offline Angus  
#19 Posted : 20 February 2013 14:59:32(UTC)
Angus

South Africa   
Joined: 27/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 202
Location: Johannesburg
Fantastic topic. Thank you!
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Offline franciscohg  
#20 Posted : 20 February 2013 18:44:14(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,204
Location: Patagonia
I have been using that electronic contact cleaner in spray for a while now, it works wonderful indeed!
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline Harvey  
#21 Posted : 21 February 2013 00:29:37(UTC)
Harvey

United States   
Joined: 17/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 511
Location: Glen Oaks, N.Y.
Thanks for writing up your research so clearly. I have quite a few 5202's and one (location) continues to present a problem. The rail that slides back and forth (your bottom arrows) doesn't always move, though the lantern does. What has been most puzzling is that I have changed springs, cleaned, replaced with other 5202's, tested off the layout and I still get failures (60% of the time, the part does not switch back to 'straight'). I now have more methods (of cleaning) to try. My first try is to dip that end into rubbing alcohol. My suspicion has been the weight the passing train presses that moving part down more and, due to some dirt that I have not removed, it gets stuck.

One question - earlier on it was written that the electrical components should be removed before cleaning. The last set of instructions does not mention this. If cleaning with alcohol or ultrasonic, is this necessary?

Thanks again

Harvey
Offline M Gleis User  
#22 Posted : 21 February 2013 14:27:38(UTC)
M Gleis User


Joined: 19/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 17
Location: France
HI Harvey

Have you looked to area on the photos where the RED arrows are
I found some of mine the metal is bent and preventing from sliding easily ..
you can see how the black painting is removed below this moving part
perfect sliding is important

otherwise he stays even the lantern goes into the right direction

François
CS2 60214 h/w 4.33 : Firmware : 1.6.4(3) GFP 1.38
Märklin M-Gleis,
Train -Dekoders : Märklin, Zimo
Win-Digipet 2009 Win XP Pro Sp2
Offline Martin T  
#23 Posted : 26 February 2013 12:47:37(UTC)
Martin T

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 859
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted by: Harvey Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for writing up your research so clearly. I have quite a few 5202's and one (location) continues to present a problem. The rail that slides back and forth (your bottom arrows) doesn't always move, though the lantern does. What has been most puzzling is that I have changed springs, cleaned, replaced with other 5202's, tested off the layout and I still get failures (60% of the time, the part does not switch back to 'straight'). I now have more methods (of cleaning) to try. My first try is to dip that end into rubbing alcohol. My suspicion has been the weight the passing train presses that moving part down more and, due to some dirt that I have not removed, it gets stuck.

One question - earlier on it was written that the electrical components should be removed before cleaning. The last set of instructions does not mention this. If cleaning with alcohol or ultrasonic, is this necessary?

Thanks again

Harvey


I would think, without seeing the actual mechanism, that this is because of someone has changed the shape of the moving anchor under the switch, or possible bent the pin coming down from the movable rail.

A third quess is magnetization. It's however quite easy to test. 1) Remove the spring. 2) Try to move the movable rail. If it tend to "stick" to one, or even both sides, it is magnetized. De-magnitize by swiping a magnet over the movable rail in many random directions.

Regards / Martin T
Click your way over to me in Marbrodal in Sweden: http://www.xn--mrklintg-0zaq.se/index_e.html
Offline Martin T  
#24 Posted : 26 February 2013 13:19:14(UTC)
Martin T

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 859
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Hi again! Smile

Okey, so above I have listed some common problems and methods how to overcome them.
However, the topic for this thread was not "Quick fixes for M-rail turnouts" but the more ambitious "How to make a total upgrade..", so lets continue.

(I suddenly realized the risk of writing a "know-how" article about turnouts people been struggling with for 50 years, but hey. I'm pretty fearless, so what?)

Why take it apart when it works fine?

So if my turnouts works at 13VDC, or even at 11VDC, with the K83 and all. Why bother doing more stuff and spending time on them? Well, it has to do with the statistics really. If you have one turnout which operates 99 times out of 100 and only have that turnout in your layout. It will practically take an eternity before you ever see a failure. However, if you have 100 turnouts which needs to be set for a certain route, the probability for failure is... significant. Your trains will not so often arrive to destination at all.

So the object with the coming actions is to reduce the risk of failure.
Let's start by disassembling the turnout.

1) Unscrew the screws and remove the spring, the semafor and the insulator paper.
2) Remove the lamp
3) De-solder the yellow cable from the lamp center contact. It is that cable that goes between the solenoid center pin and the lamp.
4) Straighten carefully out metal tongue "A" in the figure below.
5) Pull the metal parts out from the white plastic bobin.
6) See the picture below. "D" shows clearly dirt located on the chrome surfaces which adds to the friction. This is actually a turout which "passed" the 13VDC test.
7) Polish the surface with a piece of cloth. I use a polisher called "Autosol" on the cloth. Polish until the metal parts shine bright.
8) Assemble the solenoid again and test it.

Turout solenoid seen from the end. "A" should be straightened before the metal parts can be extracted

Metal parts showing contamination which needs to be removed.
Regards / Martin T
Click your way over to me in Marbrodal in Sweden: http://www.xn--mrklintg-0zaq.se/index_e.html
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Offline Tom Jessop  
#25 Posted : 26 February 2013 21:07:39(UTC)
Tom Jessop

Australia   
Joined: 14/12/2002(UTC)
Posts: 831
Location: Newcastle NSW Australia


I have the feeling that this post should be made a Sticky & that way will stay at the top of the page, it applies to all type's of point motors on M track & probably will extend to all track systems in the future years.

A wonderfull subject & well presented.

Regards,
Tom in Oz.
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Offline kbvrod  
#26 Posted : 26 February 2013 22:01:40(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
Originally Posted by: Tom Jessop Go to Quoted Post


I have the feeling that this post should be made a Sticky & that way will stay at the top of the page, it applies to all type's of point motors on M track & probably will extend to all track systems in the future years.

A wonderfull subject & well presented.

Regards,
Tom in Oz.


Hi Tom,all,
I agree,pin this! BigGrin I PM Martin about doing a series on this,I don't think every M-track turnout was the same?Confused

Maybe RayF can do a bit on rusty M-tracks?Laugh

Dr D

Offline Harvey  
#27 Posted : 01 March 2013 03:37:53(UTC)
Harvey

United States   
Joined: 17/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 511
Location: Glen Oaks, N.Y.
Update

I took apart my 5202 - removed the spring, removed the electromagnet and lantern. I bathed the end (double arrow in post 16) in rubbing alcohol (70% alcohol)
and re-assembled. I did not change the spring as it's relatively new. Then ran my freight trains. Still getting failures but the success rate went from around 40% to 60%. Will run again tomorrow to see if consistent. Also will perform the cleaning process on some spare 5202's.

I did check to see if anything has been magnetized - no. When the spring was removed the toggle moves easily. I did not go through all the steps in the post from Martin as this particular 5202 looked very clean and all parts moved freely. So, research continues.

Harvey
Offline Martin T  
#28 Posted : 23 March 2013 09:43:47(UTC)
Martin T

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 859
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Hi my Märklin friends!

I made an video tutorial on this subject too:



Regards / Martin T
Click your way over to me in Marbrodal in Sweden: http://www.xn--mrklintg-0zaq.se/index_e.html
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Offline kweekalot  
#29 Posted : 23 March 2013 18:22:10(UTC)
kweekalot

Netherlands   
Joined: 27/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,273
Location: Holland
Hi Martin,

Great video, looks quit professional.
And a tidy workshop too, no tracks, turnouts and wires laying around. Laugh

Marco
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Offline intruder  
#30 Posted : 23 March 2013 19:20:00(UTC)
intruder

Norway   
Joined: 16/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 5,532
Location: Akershus, Norway
Martin T wrote:
Hi my Märklin friends!

I made an video tutorial on this subject too:


Thank you Martin, very useful video.

I can also recommend Autosol and a car polish when you wish to reduce the friction on metal parts.
Autosol cleans off any sticking recidues on the metal, while the car polish makes makes it shiny and reduces the friction very much.

I use the same methode when cleaning up the shiny parts of my motorcycle.
Best regards Svein, Norway
grumpy old sod
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Offline Johnvr  
#31 Posted : 24 March 2013 06:42:09(UTC)
Johnvr

South Africa   
Joined: 03/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,175
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Martin,

Thank you for making such an interesting video !
It is essential to be able to perform maintenance on these items.

Regards,BigGrin
John
Offline Martin T  
#32 Posted : 01 April 2013 20:33:17(UTC)
Martin T

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 859
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Hi again!

Let's continue this serie about how to modify and improve the Märklin switch 5202.
This time we will adapt it to run wagons with DC-wheels.

Adapting for DC-coaches – ”The tape fix”
Märklin designed their wheels back in 1934 and then purely to be a toy product. The wheels were designed using a very wide and tall flange to prevent derailing and to accommodate use of the cheap style M-track, which rails really are bent plates, rather than solid extruded metal.
The large wheel flange of Märklin is not very prototypic and other manufacturers moved towards smaller flanges to get a more prototypic look.

Let’s take a look at what the difference in flange does to the dimensions of the wheel.

UserPostedImage

The M-track has wider tolerances compared to most rail systems in the market. It was designed with the wide flange and coaches and cars with DC-wheels does not run really well on the M-track. The much greater sensitivity to derail due to poor joints, poor cross section profile of the actual rail can be handled by tweaking the M-rail after the track work is in place. However, most wagons will anyway derail when the turnout 5202 is set to turn. Why? Simple! The support rail, which is to guide the wagons wheels into a turn is too narrow and doesn’t give the DC-wheels proper guiding. This is the support rail I mean:

UserPostedImage

This can easily be fixed by adding 2-4 layers of tape as shown in the picture.

UserPostedImage

I use a black tape intended for electrical installations. Why? It is black, which goes well with the track. It has a decent amount of thickness so I reduce the necessary numbers of layers to achieve proper thickness.

Verify the functionality by letting a loco push a wagon with DC-wheel set thru to turnout when set to turn.

UserPostedImage

The difference in price between the more detailed DC-coaches in 1:87 exact scale and the simpler more expensive Märklin wagons has given everyone a push to buy other brands than Märklin. Today, most of that difference, both in price and detail is mostly gone, so the reason to run DC-coaches on M-rail can really be questioned.
Regards / Martin T
Click your way over to me in Marbrodal in Sweden: http://www.xn--mrklintg-0zaq.se/index_e.html
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Offline Yumgui  
#33 Posted : 06 April 2013 11:18:19(UTC)
Yumgui

United States   
Joined: 20/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,659
Location: Paris, France
Ah, so that's the "tape fix" !

Did a quick test and it works like a charm, except of course for Trix TTR wagons with hopelessly larger flanges (but that's another issue) ...

A very elegant solution by its simplicity ... thanks for it Martin ThumpUp

Yum BigGrin
If your M track is rusted ... DON'T throw it out !
Working on : http://www.arep.fr/en/#/welcome
Inspired by : http://www.nakedmarklin.com/ ... I am not alone in this universe, phew.
Offline Mike863  
#34 Posted : 29 August 2013 03:02:48(UTC)
Mike863

United States   
Joined: 19/06/2013(UTC)
Posts: 61
Location: Florida
Hi all,

After a couple months buying spree, found myself with 48 old M track switches and turnouts to test. Got quite a few as pairs but also a bunch in collection lots with no promise they worked at all. The advice above was very helpful. Thirty worked fine but the other 18 were not. For the most part, the problem was just that the track tongue or the toggle piece underneath would not move freely. Some of these pieces were badly rusted. I used a silcone Teflon lubricant (Dupont) on many of the sticky ones and on some had to use some Liquid Wrench penetrating oil to even begin to loosen up the rust. The Liquid Wrench dissolves the rust, the silicone PTFE oil loosens things up. Both of these seem to vaporize quickly. (No oil on the turnouts, I hear you, but these would not move much at all.) Some were just missing a spring.

I found that for the most part, the problem was mechanical. In a few cases, in addition to the track tongue, the lamp housing was bent enough that the housing would not rotate freely, preventing the swtch from switching. I took a couple apart to look at the slider inside the solenoid, but found no real dirt inside any of them in contrast to Martin's experience. Still worth checking and cleaning, though. Disconnected from the mechanicals, the solenoids all worked fine. In fact, I am amazed that every single solenoid was perfectly good. Once I got everything loosened up and moving freely mechanically, everything on all 48 worked again.

I had one with a dead short. Turned out the light bulb in the 5140 was not staying down (lays sideways) and was popping up and causing a short.

Please note that poking around and shorting things will very quickly fry a spring - no wonder they are missing, they burn right through in a flash (kind of a design flaw if you ask me, you could literally blow a spring with a derailment). I also found that the 5128 double slip switches use 4 metal whiskers to toggle the 4 tongues rather than springs. Various of these whiskers were also fried and burnt through by shorts. I found 0.3 mm piano wire that seems like the right thing and will try those repairs next although they don't look that easy to replace. Proper diameter wire fishing leader would likely also work.

Mike
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Offline Mike863  
#35 Posted : 03 September 2013 04:12:46(UTC)
Mike863

United States   
Joined: 19/06/2013(UTC)
Posts: 61
Location: Florida
Hello all,

The size 3 piano wire (0.3 mm) worked great for repairing the double slip 5128s. I had two styles of slightly different design. Cut some wire pieces to length (about 45 mm), pull out the old remnant wire with pliers, insert new wire into track tongue (the moving piece), grasp other end firmly with pliers and push back into place on the sliding plate. One style had a couple of folded over metal tabs and the other had just holes punched into the metal plate to hold the wire. The type with the holes in the plate was real easy. The other gave a bit of trouble with failing to seat under the second tab for one of them until I had bent several wires. Seeing as how the wire is sold in 10 foot lengths, I have another nine feet of wire to go if I ever have to mess with this again and I can always whip up some fishing leaders in the meantime.

The rest of the switches are working fine so far, despite the lube. Mostly the problem was rust and bent metal.

Mike
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#36 Posted : 18 December 2013 08:38:13(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 17,251
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: Tom Jessop Go to Quoted Post
I have the feeling that this post should be made a Sticky..........


Topic made 'Sticky'
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Offline ninobenve  
#37 Posted : 03 June 2015 00:12:54(UTC)
ninobenve

Argentina   
Joined: 13/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 45
Location: Liniers 123 (entre Falkner & Strobel)
Originally Posted by: Martin T Go to Quoted Post
Hi folks!

The M-rail switch 5202 is a part of almost every layout made for M-rail.
As long as you have the normal blue switchbox, or possible some own toggle switches in a panel you can make the switch operate perfectly. The human brain has a way of learning how to overcome small problems and use the tweaks even without knowing. I for instance realized that I was always switching my switches twice to make sure it switches properly.

BUT! Going over to computerdrive via K83 decoders change things around. It has no actual feedback of the switch position, so now the switch really has to operate perfect every time. Especially if you are going for automatic train operation. Even more so if your layout consist from 20, or even 50 or 100 switches. At a certain point some actions has to be taken to reduce the failure rate of the switches.

I spent a lot of time analysing and checking for solutions, which I intend to publish in this thread over a couple of weeks. Some material is written, but some needs to be typed in to my computer first. If my wife is nice with me and the kids don't get me into too much trouble, then this thread will be completed in a few weeks. If not.. Well... We'll see.

So here's how it all starts: OhMyGod

UserPostedImage


Using a separate capacitor discharge power unit for powering solenoids (switeches, double crossover, signals, &c.) improves greatly their performance. The added kick assures an almost failsafe operationThumpUp .
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Offline analogmike  
#38 Posted : 03 June 2015 00:39:21(UTC)
analogmike

United States   
Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 633
Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
hello ninobenve; i am very interested in your capacitor powered soliniods. can you provide a schematic? is this for analog or digital? voltage, microfarad? mikey
I love the smell of smoke fluid in the morning .
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Offline xxup  
#39 Posted : 03 June 2015 01:00:59(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,035
Location: Australia
Me too... Love
Adrian
UserPostedImage
Australia flag by abFlags.com
Offline petestra  
#40 Posted : 03 June 2015 01:08:45(UTC)
petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,668
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
Wonderful, Martin. Thanks so much for that great info on your tutorial. Cheers, Peter. Smile ThumpUp
Offline Hoffmann  
#41 Posted : 03 June 2015 04:10:35(UTC)
Hoffmann

Canada   
Joined: 25/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,106
Location: Guelph, Ontario


Hi,

You are probably looking for this http://www.mbw-shopsyste...s/64515472/Products/WP-2


Martin


marklin-eh
Offline Harvey  
#42 Posted : 17 December 2015 21:02:08(UTC)
Harvey

United States   
Joined: 17/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 511
Location: Glen Oaks, N.Y.

Martin

Can you provide a diagram showing how to connect a capacitor powered solinoid to the 5202. I don't have an electrical background - had no idea what I was looking at in the last link. I assume some of the parts have ratings (volts, amps, etc). What 'size' parts are needed?
Regards
Harvey

Offline thomas buckley  
#43 Posted : 06 February 2016 18:37:01(UTC)
thomas buckley

United States   
Joined: 04/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 111
Location: California, warner Springs
When I saw the picture of the pile of switches I got a good chuckle because I have a pile just like it! Reading through the rest of posts I feel I have exponentially increased my knowledge of this Marklin mainstay:)))
Offline Slider  
#44 Posted : 29 August 2017 09:39:47(UTC)
Slider

Netherlands   
Joined: 03/04/2014(UTC)
Posts: 51
Wonderful topic, thank you for sharing!
I have been revising my M rail switches for a while now, with your guide.

I know this is an older topic, but I have found additional information to share here that might help people alot Laugh

I still had troublesome switches I couldn't get working properly on 12V.
My layout is fed bij 14,8Vdc, so 12V is the minimum I want them to operate perfectly.

After many hours of replacing parts, rebuilding the mechnics and electronics of the switches, I almost gave up.

Until I tried this:

Original method
UserPostedImage

New method
UserPostedImage

I reversed the iron block and rod!

The rod is kept in place by the coils (shift to the left for the photo's only). The rod is very loose and free, but still is held by the iron block.
Every problem switch I have, now works perfectly with this method, the sliding action has almost no friction anymore.
And because of the free movement of the rod, any inperfections of the switch of other parts, does not affect the operation anymore.

This worked incredibly good for me, maybe it can help others too.


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Offline Jvdwaa  
#45 Posted : 22 December 2017 09:51:54(UTC)
Jvdwaa

Netherlands   
Joined: 04/04/2017(UTC)
Posts: 8
Originally Posted by: Slider Go to Quoted Post


Until I tried this:

Original method
UserPostedImage

New method
UserPostedImage




Could you please upload your pictures on the forum itself? Your posting is referring to http://veijk.com/Marklin...G_20170829_073428560.jpg and those images do not exist any more.

Btw, I am in the process of cleaning all my M-track with an ultra sonic cleaner. Quite successful, exept for a few tracks which are using a different paint which is actually removed in the cleaning process. I still have to do the switches, but for that I think it is better to take them apart (to avoid cleaning fluid in hidden corners).
Offline daafies  
#46 Posted : 26 March 2020 03:39:21(UTC)
daafies

United States   
Joined: 31/08/2017(UTC)
Posts: 19
Location: California, Hayward
I switched to c track just because of these m track switches :) i still have the lot tho. I should go over them and see why i got so many derailings. I do love and miss the sound m track makes.
Offline grnwtrs  
#47 Posted : 10 May 2020 01:42:17(UTC)
grnwtrs

United States   
Joined: 18/06/2005(UTC)
Posts: 572
Location: El Sobrante
Originally Posted by: Hoffmann Go to Quoted Post


Hi,

You are probably looking for this http://www.mbw-shopsyste...s/64515472/Products/WP-2


Martin




Hi Martin:

Years later, your references are gone. Any reason they have evaporated. Maybe you and the boards moderators
can resurrect the posting.

How to repair these switches (sorry I guess they are "turnouts")
is very important to all of Marklin history.

Thanks again for your post

Regards, GeneBigGrin

Offline Bigdaddynz  
#48 Posted : 10 May 2020 11:12:47(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 17,251
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: grnwtrs Go to Quoted Post
Maybe.....the boards moderators can resurrect the posting.


No we can't, as all those links are on external websites over which we have no control...

Let me check my backup of the internet....
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Offline Jay  
#49 Posted : 10 May 2020 17:11:08(UTC)
Jay

South Africa   
Joined: 01/05/2010(UTC)
Posts: 268
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Let me check my backup of the internet....


Hi Bigdaddynz,
thank you,do hope you have success.Love Love
Warm regards
J
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