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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#1 Posted : 28 January 2013 00:17:57(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,862
Location: CA, USA
Hey everyone,

I have a bit of an unusual question: what exactly does an S88 decoder do? I've accumulated several over the years, and after starring at them forever I thought I'd look into it. The catalog describes their purpose quite literally, however I'm wondering what does this do on your train layout? What do they enable or are they necessary to accomplish? I don't have any digital books that give any more description then "feedback module" or the fact that they run in line with each other to do something, but that "something" is what I'm curious about. Thanks!

Advice is appreciated!
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Offline tulit  
#2 Posted : 28 January 2013 00:33:51(UTC)
tulit

Canada   
Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 400
They are used for detecting trains on the tracks. There's several ways you can do this including magnetic reed switches, splitting the left and right rails and letting the wheel sets electrically connect them, etc. The S88 acts as the interface between these are your controller. It isn't really a decoder persay. You can daisy chain multiple S88s together to get a whole lot more inputs.

What can they be used for? Lots of things. If you are using a CS2, you can use them to trigger accessories or routes. If you're using PC control, a whole lot more. The most popular uses are probably automatically controlling signals to indicate to following trains to stop, signaling to a shuttle controller the train is at the end or for automatically switching turnouts in staging areas once a train enters a siding.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#3 Posted : 28 January 2013 00:59:36(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: tulit Go to Quoted Post
They are used for detecting trains on the tracks.


That's the main use for an S88, but since they are a sensor feedback module rather than a decoder, they can be used for other things. For example, they could be integrated with sensors installed on a turntable or crane. You then need some sort of logic (Central Station or PC software) that takes some sort of programmable action based on the input from the S88. The sensor input from the S88 is basically on or off.

Sensors can be items such as a contact track (various types) or a reed switch with magnet. Others have used Infra Red or the Uhlenbrock Lissy system, but I don't know if these integrate with a S88.
User is suspended until 23/03/4752 12:54:35(UTC) Mulldog Lemon  
#4 Posted : 28 January 2013 03:05:49(UTC)
Mulldog Lemon

Australia   
Joined: 27/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 635
Quote:
but since they are a sensor feedback module rather than a decoder

The 72710 device is "controlbox with feedback function"

So then, The S88 is a firmware device, operated logically via the CS controller; rather than a physical switching device (72710)?

Would a practical example be:
  1. a carriage activating a red switch
  2. The reed switch triggers a node on the S88
  3. The S88 sends a control sequence to the controller
  4. The controller initiates some other, pre-programmed action

Yes??

Quote:
splitting the left and right rails and letting the wheel sets electrically connect them

OK, KimballThurlow referred to this in response to my question about wheelsets in another thread.

Thanks for the Q&A so far.

UserPostedImage
Offline Harvey  
#5 Posted : 28 January 2013 03:18:13(UTC)
Harvey

United States   
Joined: 17/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 590
Location: Glen Oaks, N.Y.
Repeating what was said above - just giving examples of how use the S88

When a loc pulls into my hidden yard, a magnet in the last car will activate a reed which is connected to the S88. This initiates commands such as
1 change switching track so next train does not enter this track
shut power off on that track
turn power on for another track in the switching yard
I use 2 S88's to control my freight and passenger hidden yards and my signals (blocks)

Another example - I use contact tracks for my shuttle route. When the rail bus slider passes over the contact track, it sends a signal through the S88 to the CS2 to either stop and then proceed or stop and turn around.

I had issues when setting up - Seems things work better when I don't use the inverted T ground. Otherwise, things now work fine (except for one signal that needs to be reset if I press emergency stop).

Harvey
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Offline cookee_nz  
#6 Posted : 28 January 2013 03:24:50(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,948
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: 5HorizonsRR Go to Quoted Post
Hey everyone,

I have a bit of an unusual question: what exactly does an S88 decoder do? I've accumulated several over the years, and after starring at them forever I thought I'd look into it. The catalog describes their purpose quite literally, however I'm wondering what does this do on your train layout? What do they enable or are they necessary to accomplish? I don't have any digital books that give any more description then "feedback module" or the fact that they run in line with each other to do something, but that "something" is what I'm curious about. Thanks!

Advice is appreciated!


Hi John,

Adding on from the very good answers already given, the S88 connects to any of the master devices which has the required 6-pin Connector, and which can respond to a signal provided by the S88.

Examples that I am personally familiar with include...

6043 Memory
6050 Interface
6023i Central Control ?
Intellibox
And some of the newer generation controllers like the CS2 etc (someone will add specifics)

In the case of the Memory, you are able to pre-program selected 'Routes', specifically to trigger Turnouts, but also any other digital accessory device such as Signals, Solenoids etc.

In this mode, the Memory unit is sending Data Out onto your layout and whichever button you press on the Memory will determine which 'route' is activated. And by route I mean literally all the required steps to get a train from point A to point B. It's more useful if you have a layout with more than one option between point A & point B. Perhaps you can take a straight route down the mainline, or possibly there is a branch line which takes a more scenic route, or you could be going through a staging yard with several parallel tracks where you could choose one of many.

Actually, I should probably say getting a train between point A and point Z, with the option to choose any of the possible routes B to Y depending on what the S88's tell me is happening in between BigGrin

In the case of a staging yard, you would obviously want to avoid tracks that may already be occupied with trains.

By adding an S88, you add 16 'inputs' to your control capabilities, so that you can now add an 'if x then y' option. Although I don't own a Memory unit myself, Tom Catherall wrote an excellent series of articles in his 'Digital SIG Newsletters" some years back showing some quite complex programming that could be achieved with one or more S88 units and the Memory.

My own direct experience is with the 6050 PC interface and the Intellibox. In both cases using a Computer running a program where you would write a 'script' (or set of instructions) that are to be carried out.

By monitoring the inputs from your s88 decoders (actually encoders but they are informally called decoders), you can have two different scenarios.

The first would be having your set of instructions ('script') wait until a specified event has occured. A very simple example of this would be a simple oval with a passing loop, and two trains on the track. Each track has a contact track section wired to the S88. Train #1 enters a track and activates the contact track. The computer becomes aware of this by keeping an eye on the S88 ports. Once it detects a change then your script can make other things happen. In this instance, it might be to change a turnout, and a signal, and then tells Train #2 to proceed. When train #2 arrives at the next contact track again the S88 detects that and as soon as the PC checks for any change it can proceed with whatever needs to be done.

Of course this very simple example can already be done with simple analogue control, but it can only do what you've wired it to do. And with analogue, each contact track is required to be wired directly to a signal, solenoid etc and any changes can be a LOT of work with little flexibility.

Doing the same thing via a PC, or Memory unit, no wiring changes are needed. The contacts always remain connected to the S88, and all the accessories remain connected to the K83/K84 units. The flexibility comes from the Routes programmed into the Memory, or the capabilities of your PC software.

In my above example, you could also to the same thing using the Memory. You simply program Route A, Route B etc and into the Route you incorporate the additional step/s of checking the S88 unit/s so that if the required event is triggered, you can call up a different route for the train to follow.

A significant difference between the Memory and using a PC is that the PC can do a whole heap more including running actual trains which the Memory cannot do - it has no ability to fully control a Loco Decoder.

The other thing with the S88 units is that you don't need to wait for an event to happen. The event may already have happened, but the S88 is simply holding that change until such time as it is 'polled' by the master unit (Memory, Interface etc) to say "Hello, anything to tell me?". In this way you can fully automate a hidden storage yard for example where a track may have been occupied by a train some time previously, but the only time you may want to know that is when you are seeking a free track.

This is very much a 'top of my head' rough rundown but I hope will answer your question more in a 'how you can use them', than a 'what can they do'

So if you already have some S88 units, you only need any of the devices with an S88 port that is able to read them and act on the data provided.

I am not familiar myself with the newer generation of Digital units which have S88 connectors but others can expand on this, and no-doubt correct any errors as required.

Hope this helps

Cheers

Steve
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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Offline Christoffer  
#7 Posted : 28 January 2013 04:09:58(UTC)
Christoffer

Norway   
Joined: 23/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 760
Originally Posted by: Harvey Go to Quoted Post
Repeating what was said above - just giving examples of how use the S88

When a loc pulls into my hidden yard, a magnet in the last car will activate a reed which is connected to the S88. This initiates commands such as
1 change switching track so next train does not enter this track
shut power off on that track
turn power on for another track in the switching yard
I use 2 S88's to control my freight and passenger hidden yards and my signals (blocks)

Another example - I use contact tracks for my shuttle route. When the rail bus slider passes over the contact track, it sends a signal through the S88 to the CS2 to either stop and then proceed or stop and turn around.

I had issues when setting up - Seems things work better when I don't use the inverted T ground. Otherwise, things now work fine (except for one signal that needs to be reset if I press emergency stop).

Harvey


Hello Harvey

Very nice to see you have a hang on the S88 module then i have a couple of questions for you : How to you wire the S88 so that it shuts off the power to the track? I know how you do it on the turnouts but not how to turn off power on a pice of track or use a signal with it, do you know of any place that explains or has this in a diagram?

Christoffer
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#8 Posted : 28 January 2013 04:13:53(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post
And some of the newer generation controllers like the CS2 etc (someone will add specifics)


The CS2
The CS1 with hardware/software version 2.0 and above
The Ecos and Ecos2 (not sure which software version S88 feedback was introduced in, but my guess would be v2.0)
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#9 Posted : 28 January 2013 04:18:14(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: Christoffer Go to Quoted Post
Very nice to see you have a hang on the S88 module then i have a couple of questions for you : How to you wire the S88 so that it shuts off the power to the track? I know how you do it on the turnouts but not how to turn off power on a pice of track or use a signal with it, do you know of any place that explains or has this in a diagram?


For this you would need a S88 and a K84 and or a K83 with connected relay.

The S88 provides the feedback signal to the CS
The CS is programmed to take some action, in this case switch a K84
The K84 is connected to the CS as per normal, with one of its relay outputs connected to the track
Offline Christoffer  
#10 Posted : 28 January 2013 05:09:48(UTC)
Christoffer

Norway   
Joined: 23/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 760
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Christoffer Go to Quoted Post
Very nice to see you have a hang on the S88 module then i have a couple of questions for you : How to you wire the S88 so that it shuts off the power to the track? I know how you do it on the turnouts but not how to turn off power on a pice of track or use a signal with it, do you know of any place that explains or has this in a diagram?


For this you would need a S88 and a K84 and or a K83 with connected relay.

The S88 provides the feedback signal to the CS
The CS is programmed to take some action, in this case switch a K84
The K84 is connected to the CS as per normal, with one of its relay outputs connected to the track


Hello

Thanks for the answer! Really interesting, and if you want the train just to stop and still having with the lights on and send another train on its way? Sorry for all the questions but i am a novice in S88 use..

The thing is i am thinking about running a train around the layout, make it stop and send out another train but i do not know how to achive this, is there any way to do this? can you make one train set go as many rounds you want before the other one takes over?

Christoffer
Offline cookee_nz  
#11 Posted : 28 January 2013 05:55:16(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,948
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: Christoffer Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Christoffer Go to Quoted Post
Very nice to see you have a hang on the S88 module then i have a couple of questions for you : How to you wire the S88 so that it shuts off the power to the track? I know how you do it on the turnouts but not how to turn off power on a pice of track or use a signal with it, do you know of any place that explains or has this in a diagram?


For this you would need a S88 and a K84 and or a K83 with connected relay.

The S88 provides the feedback signal to the CS
The CS is programmed to take some action, in this case switch a K84
The K84 is connected to the CS as per normal, with one of its relay outputs connected to the track


Hello

Thanks for the answer! Really interesting, and if you want the train just to stop and still having with the lights on and send another train on its way? Sorry for all the questions but i am a novice in S88 use..

The thing is i am thinking about running a train around the layout, make it stop and send out another train but i do not know how to achive this, is there any way to do this? can you make one train set go as many rounds you want before the other one takes over?

Christoffer


Hi Christoffer, you really need to give us a little more information here, such as what are you using to control your trains, and what are your S88 units connected to?

Cheers

Steve
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#12 Posted : 28 January 2013 06:08:20(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: Christoffer Go to Quoted Post
.......and if you want the train just to stop and still having with the lights on and send another train on its way? Sorry for all the questions but i am a novice in S88 use..

The thing is i am thinking about running a train around the layout, make it stop and send out another train but i do not know how to achive this, is there any way to do this? can you make one train set go as many rounds you want before the other one takes over?



If you use a Marklin or Viessmann brake module, these provide a limited amount of power to keep lights and smoke going, but the loco stays stationary.

As to the rest, here's a copy of a post I made in my layout thread (on page #2) - https://www.marklin-user...ons-and-Alterations.aspx


"Bascially, I have 4 signals, one at each blue point on the following diagram.



UserPostedImage


Exit signals are placed at the blue lines. Reed contacts are placed at the red lines (entry) and green lines (exit). Trains carry a magnet on the last coach / car of the train. The sequence starts with all signals set to red. When a train runs over a red reed contact, the CS will set the signal on the other track to green, and sets the entry turnout to that track. That incoming train stops at its signal. The outgoing train then runs over the green reed contact which sets all signals back to red. The outgoing train does a circuit of the layout, and ends up running over its red reed contact and triggers the sequence for the other train.

I use Viessmann 4213 colour light signals, which are operated by a Viessmann 5210 signal controller. I also use a brake module similar to the Viessmann 5232 brake module.


All reed switches are wired to an S88 decoder, which in turn is wired back to the CS1. S88 decoders are used for sensor input to enable automatic train running. In the Marklin 3 rail world, you can use a variety of sensors to provide input into the S88 decoders. You can use reed switches, which are activated by magnets on locos and or coaches, and at least 2 types of contact tracks, one of which is activated by the centre rail pickup shoe on a loco, the other by the AC wheelsets shorting out both outside rails. There are also special S88's available which can detect current draw in a track section as a loco passes over that section. The CS1/CS2 can take input from S88 decoders, they are connected in a chain via a special ribbon cable (a short cable - 150mm - comes with each S88 decoder, anything longer you will have to buy).

Some sensors such as the reed switch can be useful to determine when a train has cleared a certain point, if the magnet is placed on the last car/coach. Other sensors like the contact track activated by wheelsets can be useful to determine whether a stationary train is occupying a section of track.

One end of a sensor is connected to the S88 decoder, the other is normally connected to track ground. There is a ground connection on the S88, and the S88 is wired back to the controller by a S88 ribbon cable. You then use the features of the controller to define actions such as routes/signal/point control to be taken when a sensor is triggered."

For more detailed information, try getting hold of a copy of the Marklin 03402 H0 Signal Book, this has much more information about block control and sequencing.
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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#13 Posted : 28 January 2013 06:50:39(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,862
Location: CA, USA
Thanks for all the help guys! Makes perfect sense. Now if I can ever getting around to building something permanent enough to use them with...
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