Greetings everyone!

I'm new here and new on Märklin Z-scale train hobby. Bought my first starter kit 81569 in december 2012. I assembled it back then and at first everything seemed to be going Ok. Then I decided to expand my track with the 8191 set, got it from the mail today, and now just few moments ago finished assembling first test installation with it. It's directly as the 50x100cm layout from the track plan book (page 6) that also came with the kits. So I double-checked that every track is on its place, all firmly attached, the the wiring, I actually googled couple of sites to make sure it goes right (zscale.info and guidetozscale.com, both have very good pictures which is great as I'm new to this hobby), then double-checked them - and they were all absolutely as they should.

Now.. plug in the power supply, quick check on the electromagnetic turnouts from their control box. All working just smoothly. Then I put my starter kit train on the track, just the loco, to run a test round with it. Everything went Ok, made couple of circles with it. Then I decided to test the turnouts, so I turned the speed control to 0, pushed the button to change the turnout (nearest to the power feed track) so I could back up the train to one of the sidetracks. But then, after the turnout switched just fine and I turned the speed control, the loco didn't respond at all. I turned it back to 0 and tried forward, but still nothing happens. I unplugged the power supply, checked again all my wirings, checked that all wires are firmly on their plugs & places - it all checks good. Just as I alreary had checked them many times before running anything on the new track layout.

So because I found no problems, I plugged the power supply back to the wall, but still nothing. No respond what so ever from the loco. I tried to position the loco on different spots on the layout, also directly on the power feed track, then tried through all combinations on the turnout controls (they still worked just fine, the switches) and still nothing. Then I got kind of really worried, and googled some more on the wiring and with few other keywords for possible problem situations, but got nothing new. All my wirings checked perfectly fine, and it's not even too complicated yet with only S + E kits. I don't literally smell anything weird, and didn't for example hear any additional worrying "sounds, buzzes or clicks" while all this happened. I tried to unplug the power supply couple of times more, but nothing helps. No matter which way the train is on the track, it doesn't respond to the controls at all. Last thing I did was disconnecting the switch control box (while the power supply was detached from the wall of course) from the main controller, but after plugging the power back in, it didn't help either. Nothing that I can figure seems to solve the issue. I'm quite worried that the loco got damaged by the new parts / layout somehow, but I can't figure out anything that could of caused that to happen.

Just to clarify my wiring, it is done as shown in this picture . Only difference is of course that there are two turnouts on my layout, but they both follow excactly the same pattern.

Any tips and/or advices would be very welcome..

EDIT: Small update, I removed the turnouts from the layout and made it to basic oval track, I got the loco to woke up few times(!), but it seems unstable.. the movement is very stuttering, varying its speed by itself and so on.

Oh, and I think I also forgot to mention that all parts that I've used here are new from the box.

And the next problem is that I also bought a new loco with this expansion set, and I'm deeply worried to dare try it on the new layout (with the turnouts assembled)..

I think I'll sleep over it and try to make more sense to the issue tomorrow.

Edited by user 07 February 2013 09:00:56(UTC)  | Reason: Updates

Thank you Daniell for your answer!

But should it really do that just yet, I mean its only about one month since I took it out of the starter box and it's been running on very very little use. The thing that worries me is that should I just contact the shop and send it back along the warranty, because I'm guessing that if I touch those screws at the bottom of the loco or try to open it in any way, that'll be the end of the warranty option.

Another thing that puzzles me is that the starter set has been on product program not until 2011-2012, so could it be possible that the motor would already require oiling? I thought I'll be safe for some time (as the parts I've bought so far have been new) and buy some good brand oli later on along the hobby.

I must say that because this starter set loco is my first ever z-serie loco, I don't have much experience in all how they should work in practice. I've always had to turn the speed control to 120 before I get the loco moving (even on the small starter track). It's been that way right out of the box. Then you could slightly tune it down, maybe to 90, and still keep it running - but all speeds under that were definitely off. The loco would just simply stop. And there has been some little stutter/varying on the speeds before (all under the maximum, which is too fast anyway), so that I can't really say that the loco has ever runned "just smoothly". At least not anything below the speed 120 from then control unit. But it hasn't never completely stopped responding before, like it does on 50/50 chance now.

EDIT: I'm uploading few vids to youtube at the moment (takes some time, I'll add the links later on asap) to illustrate the situation better, because I don't think that the problem is on the train/trains anymore, at least not alone caused by them. I run the first test rounds with my new 88973 loco, and all of the problems still apply. Since the turnaouts aren't really even wired to the track or the main control box, I'll also edit the topic name to be more describing.

Could it be either the power supply, or (maybe more likely) the main control unit itself causing this..(?)

Hmm. I don't have Z scale, just HO. I do know this; there may be some manufacturing process oil remaining on the track. Give them a wipe. It may not help much but it will remove a variable. Same goes with the wheels.

As for checking out the motor etc. as it is new, talk to your dealer before opening it up. If you are OK with it, open up the lok and ensure that there is no oil in places where it should not go.

I had over oiled my Loks in the past and had similar issues until I removed the excess.

This is my little 2 bits. There are more experienced z scale users around.

You could try to connect some batteries directly to the tracks instead of the control unit and power supply. Try 3 x AA or AAA in series, That would make the voltage 4,5. The trains should run fine on that. If not, it is something wrong with the trains.
.

Hi Dok,

Welcome to the forum.

I am pretty sure this has nothing to do with the oil. It wouldn't go completely dead by that. And if it is the oil, it is not lack of it. I know many Z-scalers clean their brand new locos for oil because they think they have to much in the first place. So what ever you do, please don't add more oil to it without cleaning it completely first.

Have you tried to clean the tracks? Z-scale, and especially the steam locos are very sensitive to dust and dirt on the tracks. If you leave the tracks in the open for some days, you will have to clean the tracks. Try to wipe your finger over it, and I am sure you will have a black stripe on your finger tip. I have a Christmas layout with no dust protection in the living room, and I have given up running steamers on it. Have to clean tracks almost every day. Problem is that most steamers only have power pick up on two axles. The electric and diesels with boogies have pick up on 4 axles. I think Märklin is doing a big mistake selling starter sets with steamers. Most newcomers ends up having trouble like your self, and never continue with z.

By the way, the steamer in the video is run by a System Jörger controller which is specially designed for slow and smooth running. The Märklin original controller can't compete with that one. But it shouldn't be the problems you describe.

It is not possible to do any harm to the locos with the battery test, but an easier test would be to use a 9 volt battery like the one in the smoke/fire alert thing in your sealing, and just put it directly to the wheels of the loco. One pole of the battery to one of the wheels at each side. Just remember that the middle axle of the smallest steamer don't have power pick up on the middle axle. The 9 volt battery will run the loco at full speed. And if it does, oil is not your problem.

I now have some isopropyl alcohol on the way, it seems to be the safest & best suited for the track cleaning. I should be able to get an update to that in couple of days.

About cleaning the locos.. when you say "cleaning it completely", is there some pictures or something with basic guidelines for it? Because the Märklin service manual only shows about where to put more oil. I mean, what parts I should and can safely clean inside the loco? And what accessories should I use, I'm guessing that at least the isopropyl alcohol would be too heavy on anything inside the loco.

Especially when some say "clean all the original factory oil from it" .. I mean, I basically just got this set, and now I would neet to blow it to bits and re-do the assembling better than Märklin, just like reviving some museum loco. That.. just sound so extreme to me, at so early point.

And an update to the smaller loco, I got it running again for few times, but it's very unreliable, and only agrees to work on higher speeds - if at all. I runned a few laps on it while it happened to wake up, and after 15min. or so I stopped it, and noticed that it had became quite hot to touch. Too hot in my opinion to be normal. Lucky I didn't left it running for any longer than that. The speed was only something like ~150. So no more that kind of testing with this loco, before I figure what to do with its issues and whats wrong with it.

I'll update more when I got all the maintenance stuff I've ordered, some of these things can be really hard to combine here..

Again, thank you all!

Hi Dok,all,

>I now have some isopropyl alcohol on the way, it seems to be the safest & best suited for the track cleaning. I should be able to get an update to that in couple of days.<

If you didn't click on the link I provided,.....never mind,...

>About cleaning the locos.. when you say "cleaning it completely", is there some pictures or something with basic guidelines for it? Because the Märklin service manual only shows about where to put more oil. I mean, what parts I should and can safely clean inside the loco? And what accessories should I use, I'm guessing that at least the isopropyl alcohol would be too heavy on anything inside the loco.<

Iso,or many other agents will NOT HARM the motor or the plastics!!!!!!!!

Clean the parts that m-o-v-e,the motor,gears,wheels,driver rods,.....make sure they are in-line,not bent,.....

All done. Dr D

Big thanks, that's some really valuable information there about the loco cleaning! Btw, after I get my cleaning fluid and oil and can start the maintenance, can the same Labelle 108 oil be used on both; the oil maintenance hole described in the service book, plus the gears also? Or do the gears require different kind of texture from it? And is there any visible external signs which from I could figure if there is already excessive amounts (too much) of Märklin factory oil in?

About the lights, yes, but they are very very dim and don't come so clearly visible until the speed is set at least to 130-150. And that's already so fast, that the stalling is reduced to more random (it changes to more like variating uneven speeds with slighter stalling) and harder to catch if they're lit when the stalling occurs. I just run the loco at 100, and it's really hard to even notice that the loco actually has those 3 lights at all. To get them fully lit, the loco has to be running >180 (just tested).

Try to run in the dark. :) If the light flickers it is dirty tracks... And you don't have to wait for the alcohol to clean it. I never use fluid on my tracks (but I will try the No-ox). I use a kind of rubber thing from NOCH. But if not at hand, I use a small piece of wood, cork or anything that is not to soft.

Just tested it once more. It was really hard to notice since even in dark room they're so dim and the loco is constantly on the move. But yes, they do go even more out when the stalling occurs. And (un)luckily the train also did that total stop at speed ~90, and the lights were instantly off.

Btw, can I ask what is the Noch part number for that "rubbery thing"? Sounds interestingly better than those more sandpaper kind of options.

Definitely dirty tracks and/or wheels when the light is out. No doubt about that....

NOCH 60140

I can also recommend this for cleaning loco wheels: http://www.z-hightech.de...g=4&sprache=englisch

Updates.

I finally got the spare time and all the needs for thorough track cleaning. I used cotton swabs / q-tips, first doused in isopropanol, to rub the track surface. The q-tips got "pretty dirty", but I thought to see them get even more "black" from dirt.

Then I run the bigger loco, 88973, few rounds with a speeds little over ~100. After that "drive-in" I tried slowing the speed in steps, ~90 and ~70. The results were better than before, but the stuttering is still clearly there and notable. And doing some more of "warm-up / drive in" laps didn't improve the situation, it just revealed a wider view to the jerkyness and stalling. Some rounds go "pretty smoothly", but in most it seems like the loco is twitching itself forward - never going steady or smoothly. And then there were still those few times, that the loco just stopped, like the stalling would be too much for it to bear. It also got stuck 2 times so that the controller was unresponsive to the loco. I had to physically lift the loco from the track and then put it back before it would "woke up" again and start to take commands from the control unit. And sometimes even that didn't work on the first try.

Everything under the speed of ~70 is totally off, and the loco stops eventually, usually somewhere between "immediately" and "after 15cm of track".

So.. now the track is so clean that there's no spot that would leave a stain to a white cotton swab. The brand new loco, 88973, have not been runned no more than total of maybe 6-7 hours in these tests, and it has factory-clean wheels (although tried carefully cleaning them with a q-tip, but nothing came off), so it should run smoothly, or at least smoother than it does now. All the joints on the track layout were double-checked while I was cleaning them. All the wiring is checked again.

Also, the smaller loco (81569, from the starter set) really seems to be officially dead now. As I mentioned on my earlier post, it had became very unstable responsing to controls at all. Now it "doesn't even try", there's no sound, no twitch, no microscopical movement - even when looking it without its top casing. I tried numerous times to get it running again, but it just sits on the track totally unresponsive.

I'm now uploading couple of videos I took while making tests on the clean track, I'll update the links to this post as soon as ready.

And again, this thread and community help has been a huge aid, so many thanks to all the helpful people for that! All tips and advices are still welcome, but I'm really starting to think that it's best to send the kits back, as they're new and they should work and function properly.

[UPDATED]
Links to video clips:

<< Video 1 >> Running forward, for this clip it actually went the laps without the worst of the stalling, but if you keep audio up and look closely, the continuous twitching movement can be seen (and heard) as the loco moves. Could be seen better if my had would act as more solid stand for the camera..

<< Video 2 >> Running the loco backwards, the base noise it makes is multiplied, it's actually quite loud whirring noise when the loco moves. A short clip, catching first a lot of stalling and then ending to one of the 'unresponsive to control' -situations that occurs.

<< Video 3 >> Running the loco backwards again. In this clip the unsteady running, twitches and judder is much again visible and easy to spot.

<< Video 4 >> More of the unstable running. See next and the last video for what happened in about 5seconds after I stopped filming this clip..

<< Video 5 >> .. and resulting a stuck stop again. As a side note; although it might appear like a pattern that in these clips the train seems to always stuck near the power input track / on the same straight portion of the track, it's not. It does that randomly on the whole track area.

Edited by user 30 January 2013 12:01:19(UTC)  | Reason: More updates