Hi Wolf,

I saw this in the German forum, but hopefully my response in English will make more sense and be more successful!

1) It has the gold/silver striped long along the tender skirt which means it is an SLR-series loco.
2) It has the coal box with upright sides that corner the coal on 3-sides which means it is an R-series loco
3) It has a BK coupler which means it is later in production (earliest is 1938)
4) It's missing the LMS stamping which means one of two things:
-It is a production for Export outside of the UK -- mainly Netherlands, Germany itself, or sometimes the USA (but again only very early for these markets because of the oncoming war).
-The LMS stamp has faded because it has worn off -- this is very possible because sometimes they were stamped LMS / LNER after lacquer was applied for the paint.

It is possibly for an SLR / R 700 / 800 which is quite a range of model numbers but really as we get closer to the war in the time 1938 - 1943 a lot of parts were mixed and matched. It even looks like the front and rear buffers were originally red (for R-series) and then overpainted black (for SLR-series). I'm not sure if this was done by the factory or by a past owner? All the versions I have of the R 700 with an SLR tender were not overpainted, but rather made with stock SLR parts that were extra. As far as finding a loco for your tender, your safest bet would be an R 800 or R 700 series locomotive in Red because they were known to have the strange combination of an R-series coal box with an SLR-series tender skirt as seen here:



And this one with normal R-series coal box and R-series tender skirt making it a Version 1 R 700 LMS:



As far as the missing "LMS" stamp....it is commonly known that these locomotives in LMS or LNER livery were produced without stamps for non-GB markets. Some especially showing up in the US markets like an SLR 700 LNE with no "LNER" stamp and a BK coupler! These models, however, are "top secret"

Best regards,

Paul

Hello Wolf,

Yes, it's true...that corresponds with what I am saying. However, that bottom loco in the photo is a Version 1 R 700 LMS with a Version 2 R 700 LMS tender. I must warn you, however, a lot of the locos in that auction from Loesch were repainted! Even the ones verified by RITTER.

Best regards,

Paul

Hi Wolf,

Okay hopefully I can make it a little more clear. The two versions of the R 700 LMS (and the R 700 LNER for that matter) are not distinquished by the reinforced frame as you show. That is to say, a Version 1 R 700 LMS is not simply a Version 1 R 700 (with a "thin frame" and closed axle covers) but rather the *first* to be produced in the R 700 LMS series.

It should be more like this --

Version 1) Black livery R 700, thin frame (not reinforced), close axle covers on tender, shell heavily highlighted with gold painting around cab windows and loco barrel rims, black claw couplers 1935 - 1937
Version 2) Black livery R 700, same as above but with less gold highliting, reinforced frame, and open axle covers 1937
Version 2.1 LMS/LNER "rot"/"grun") Same as Version 2 but painted in LMS or LNER livery with appropriate LMS / LNER stamp on tender 1937
Version 2.2 LMS/LNER "rot"/"grun") Same as Version 2.1 but with silver claw coupler, orange painting to side of frame, and SLR-series striping on tender 1937 - 1938 (?)

Then the only R 700-series locos we have are the ones for American export with cowcatcher (of which there are several versions produced from 1937 - 1938 both with reinforced and non-reinforced frames), the R 700 LMS / LNER locos without the stamping on the tender, the R 700 black locos with LMS stamping on the tender (named in the catalog as R 700 SLMS) and finally the R 800 prototype which is actually just an R 700 loco with R 800 frame produced in 1938 because it has yellow wires.

So I think if you ever see an LMS / LNER livery R 700 loco with a thin frame (non-reinforced) or closed axle covers then stay away -- it is too early to be painted for GB market! (if you can find a thin-framed LMS or LNER R 700 I would be interested in seeing it).

One good way to tell a fake LMS or LNER loco if the paint is too good to distinguish and other obvious signs are not there is the stamping on the tender -- the lettering is usually too thin on fakes because they try to make it look worn! However, some originals are worn too so the final decision must be made on a number of factors -- both on the paint and the loco parts.

The Loesch auction which had the most *rare* items was the liquidation of the MERKLINGEN (sp?) collection in which most of the items were "verified" by RITTER. The most notable fake loco that sold for 7.500,- EUR was the SLR 700 TYP 10 (factory loco a.k.a "customer special edition") which was in my opinion fully repainted and distressed to look original. This was also the consensus of many of the collectors on the auction floor on that day. The loco is missing a special characteristic (of the paint) which is seen on every other example of the SLR 700 TYP 10 but not on this one.

Best,

Paul

Hi Wolf,

That is exactly it...since none of the books lists all of the versions, it is better to just come up with your own nomenclature!

I'm not aware of any original TYP 10 locos from 1946/1947 but I am sure it is possible just like red SK and TW locos. I also believe that the red was sprayed and not hand-painted (I don't see any brush marks on the TYP10 and the paint is too thin to be hand painted (?)).

I am sure there are less than 20 of the red SLR 700 TYP 10 in existence today overall. A handful are real, some are completely fake, some real tender but repainted shell. There are some that are still probably "unfound" and hidden in basements and some that are hidden in collections by serious collectors who don't show the loco to anyone so that the supposed number of examples in "existence" is a lot less.

Best regards,

Paul

PS. Mikado might be good as a more complete listing of all the versions, but be careful, some of the reference images are of repainted locos too, including the SLR 700 TYP 10 I believe. But no source is perfect...even the locos in the Marklin museum have some replica parts!