 Joined: 26/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 668 Location: Erftstadt
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Just been trying to get my head around this for some time re power to a large layout. Some of you have probably seen that I intend to build a very large layout in the future and apart from using different transformers for lights, turnouts etc etc, I am having problems understanding how to power the layout (read: tracks). From my idea, we are talking about approx 105 metres of track and running it from only one 60V transformer is clearly not going to be enough. I intend to use the CS (whatever version at the time is the latest) and approx 4 trains at the same time. Re catenary, I have not yet decided on this one. Perhaps I may do, but only for the two main routes that are running very long trains, ie Rheingold and ICE 3 (6-8 wagons each + interior light). I understand that one should connect the track to the power supply at several places to even out the power. But how does one make sure that everything can be run, with no issue and not running "out of power"???? Here's what (I think) the layout will look like.....  I would be very greatful for any response. Thanks.
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 Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,597 Location: Beverly, MA
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Hi Patrik,all,
It all comes down to power consumption.Loks,lights&lighting,smoke,etc,...
Dr D
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Joined: 26/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 668 Location: Erftstadt
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Originally Posted by: kbvrod  Hi Patrik,all,
It all comes down to power consumption.Loks,lights&lighting,smoke,etc,...
Dr D Thanks. This I understand, but what I don't understand is to connect it all......
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 1 user liked this useful post by NewMB
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Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,597 Location: Beverly, MA
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Hi Patrik,all, I will admit I am out-of-touch with the current M digital system.  Until the experts show up,....my 2¢ Dividing your layout into sections(or power districts) does a few things. First,it ensures enough power in that section for whatever trains are their at any one time. Also,you can isolate a short or problem much easier in that section. You have big layout and you might in the future add to it. So when in doubt,power out (old weightlifter saying)  Dr D
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1 user liked this useful post by kbvrod
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Joined: 26/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 668 Location: Erftstadt
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Originally Posted by: kbvrod Hi Patrik,all, I will admit I am out-of-touch with the current M digital system. Until the experts show up,....my 2¢ Dividing your layout into sections(or power districts) does a few things. First,it ensures enough power in that section for whatever trains are their at any one time. Also,you can isolate a short or problem much easier in that section. You have big layout and you might in the future add to it. So when in doubt,power out (old weightlifter saying) Dr D I see. Ok, thanks. Will need to look into this alhough I understand nothing! 
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1 user liked this useful post by NewMB
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Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,597 Location: Beverly, MA
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Hi Patrik,all, >I see. Ok, thanks. Will need to look into this alhough I understand nothing!< No worries my friend.We have time.Keep asking questions!Keep a notebook too!  And do some research on this site,....  All the Best,Dr Dirt
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1 user liked this useful post by kbvrod
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 Joined: 25/09/2010(UTC) Posts: 417 Location: Sherwood Park, AB, Canada
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My dad has about 14 trains. About 1/2 of them are passenger trains that are lit. As he grew his collection, we started to notice that the track powered switches no longer functioned in addition to lagging loks.  When you see this, that is when you need to get another transformer and booster. As he had a large yard and 4 loops, and that the parked trains were making sounds as well as staying lit, we divided the layout in approximately equal loading. We spit it and had the CS power 3 loops and the booster to power the yard and the remaining loop. That choice was easy as we had easy access to the 2 tracks that connected the 3 loops and the rest of the layout. The only rule is that each section is isolated from each other. If you have very complicated layouts, you may consider more boosters. CS will tell you which booster is shorting and that will help you troubleshoot where the short is.  You only need to isolate the center rail with the new boosters. There are tiny red (occationally blue) isolators that are placed over the contacts (nearest the center rail on both tracks, C track) These isolators cover the contacts and also space the rail itself. Sometimes the rail spacer is broken off so use a piece of heavier paper and trim. Also keep in mind that you should try to have feeder wires about every 2m. On my club's show loop, we had no problem with the drops every 4 m but we did not have may turnouts either. As each C track is also a feeder track, I just connect wire on one end of a track and then jump from the other end of the track to the next location. K track had different connections. See the Main catalog for more information. Final piece of advice, place a marker or feature or something at the place (electrician figurine?) at these isolation points so that you can find them again. I had to lift a meter of track  to find the isolators when I sent in the booster for its physical upgrade Marklin offered last year. |
Harald
CS2 DB & Canadian Era 3-6 |
3 users liked this useful post by witzlerh
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Joined: 26/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 668 Location: Erftstadt
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Originally Posted by: witzlerh My dad has about 14 trains. About 1/2 of them are passenger trains that are lit. As he grew his collection, we started to notice that the track powered switches no longer functioned in addition to lagging loks. When you see this, that is when you need to get another transformer and booster. As he had a large yard and 4 loops, and that the parked trains were making sounds as well as staying lit, we divided the layout in approximately equal loading. We spit it and had the CS power 3 loops and the booster to power the yard and the remaining loop. That choice was easy as we had easy access to the 2 tracks that connected the 3 loops and the rest of the layout. The only rule is that each section is isolated from each other. If you have very complicated layouts, you may consider more boosters. CS will tell you which booster is shorting and that will help you troubleshoot where the short is. You only need to isolate the center rail with the new boosters. There are tiny red (occationally blue) isolators that are placed over the contacts (nearest the center rail on both tracks, C track) These isolators cover the contacts and also space the rail itself. Sometimes the rail spacer is broken off so use a piece of heavier paper and trim. Also keep in mind that you should try to have feeder wires about every 2m. On my club's show loop, we had no problem with the drops every 4 m but we did not have may turnouts either. As each C track is also a feeder track, I just connect wire on one end of a track and then jump from the other end of the track to the next location. K track had different connections. See the Main catalog for more information. Final piece of advice, place a marker or feature or something at the place (electrician figurine?) at these isolation points so that you can find them again. I had to lift a meter of track to find the isolators when I sent in the booster for its physical upgrade Marklin offered last year. Well, thank you very much for the advice. It seems quite simple then.....isolate sections, connect a seperate transformer and a booster to these sections every 2 metres (+ connect a CS) and the technology does the rest for you.... absolutely brilliant!!
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1 user liked this useful post by NewMB
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Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC) Posts: 5,181 Location: Southern New Jersey, USA
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For four trains, even with carriage lighting, you MAY not need boosters. The size of the layout is immaterial in this. It is purely the power used. However, even if you only start with the CS, if you isolate sections of the layout and feed them discretely, you can always remove the leads and hook them up to a booster/transformer later if you need to. I tend to over-isolate, I have an isolation about every two meters or so and ALL parallel tracks are isolated, even if hooked to the same power source. That way it is easy to add more power in the future if required. |
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1 user liked this useful post by rschaffr
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,442
Location: DE-NW
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Hi! Originally Posted by: witzlerh As he grew his collection, we started to notice that the track powered switches no longer functioned in addition to lagging loks. When you see this, that is when you need to get another transformer and booster. This is typical when you use transformers. Switching-mode power supplies keep the voltage nearly constant and switches should work even under heavy load, with transformers the voltage goes down under heavy load and switches that won't flip or trains that slow down will indicate the booster is near its limit. With transformers you cannot use the full power a booster can potentially provide. With power supplies, you need more power when the controller switches off on overload. On the information screen you can see how much current the layout draws to see how close you are to the limit. The power of one controller (with built-in booster) will normally be enough for four trains - but this depends on the trains, especially lighted coaches (light bulbs draw more current). It cannot hurt to prepare the layout for boosters. Make different booster sections (e.g. inner circle/outer circle or left half/right half) even if you don't have boosters yet. Turnouts do not need mfx, so a Delta Control can be used for turnouts. Others buy mfx boosters and use the built-in booster only for the turnouts. Advantages: less current drawn from the controller, so it produces less heat. Short circuits on the layout (derailed trains) impose no risk to the controller, only to the booster. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS  |
1 user liked this useful post by H0
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Joined: 26/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 668 Location: Erftstadt
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Originally Posted by: H0 Hi! Originally Posted by: witzlerh As he grew his collection, we started to notice that the track powered switches no longer functioned in addition to lagging loks. When you see this, that is when you need to get another transformer and booster. This is typical when you use transformers. Switching-mode power supplies keep the voltage nearly constant and switches should work even under heavy load, with transformers the voltage goes down under heavy load and switches that won't flip or trains that slow down will indicate the booster is near its limit. With transformers you cannot use the full power a booster can potentially provide. With power supplies, you need more power when the controller switches off on overload. On the information screen you can see how much current the layout draws to see how close you are to the limit. The power of one controller (with built-in booster) will normally be enough for four trains - but this depends on the trains, especially lighted coaches (light bulbs draw more current). It cannot hurt to prepare the layout for boosters. Make different booster sections (e.g. inner circle/outer circle or left half/right half) even if you don't have boosters yet. Turnouts do not need mfx, so a Delta Control can be used for turnouts. Others buy mfx boosters and use the built-in booster only for the turnouts. Advantages: less current drawn from the controller, so it produces less heat. Short circuits on the layout (derailed trains) impose no risk to the controller, only to the booster. I have seen these Switched Power Supplies that Marklin are offering. Are these different from a transformer??? For me it's better to add power from day 1 rather than having to add later as this way, one does never have to worry about running out of power. Apart the 4 trains, there will be a considerate amount of wagns standing still and many of those have lights inside to and as far as I know, these lights can not be switched off.
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,442
Location: DE-NW
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Originally Posted by: NewMB I have seen these Switched Power Supplies that Marklin are offering. Are these different from a transformer??? Yes. Transformers deliver unregulated AC. Your Central Station needs DC, so it converts this unregulated AC to unregulated DC. Switching-mode power supplies provide regulated DC. Here are the results from a test I conducted some time ago: https://www.marklin-user...Reloaded.aspx#post230786With power supply (ESU, not M*), track voltage as indicated by the controller varied between 19 V and 18.6 V. With Mother M*'s finest 60 VA transformer, track voltage varied between 21.7 V and 17.9 V - and the maximum load during the test was 1.7 A (with 2 trains running). Voltage would go further down if load would increase some more. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
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Joined: 26/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 668 Location: Erftstadt
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Originally Posted by: H0 Originally Posted by: NewMB I have seen these Switched Power Supplies that Marklin are offering. Are these different from a transformer??? Yes. Transformers deliver unregulated AC. Your Central Station needs DC, so it converts this unregulated AC to unregulated DC. Switching-mode power supplies provide regulated DC. Here are the results from a test I conducted some time ago: https://www.marklin-user...Reloaded.aspx#post230786With power supply (ESU, not M*), track voltage as indicated by the controller varied between 19 V and 18.6 V. With Mother M*'s finest 60 VA transformer, track voltage varied between 21.7 V and 17.9 V - and the maximum load during the test was 1.7 A (with 2 trains running). Voltage would go further down if load would increase some more. Thanks Tom. Tbh I think I will need help with all this when time comes..... Btw, does the CS2 come with a transformer/power pack? (I am asking as so far I have always run using only a MS1 and a 60V transformer - small layout). Thanks again for all help.
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