Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline Kim R  
#1 Posted : 15 June 2012 09:16:59(UTC)
Kim R

Australia   
Joined: 06/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 67
Location: Brisbane
I am working on doing a WW@ german layout of a tank depot/repair workshop. To create the layout I am trying to find out what rolling stock and locomotives where in use during the period and what combinations of wagons where used in the period. To this end I have run across a few bits and pieces on the net (eg Broken rolling stock & More broken rolling stock)

Is anyone else interested in that period who has any good references to useful information?

Kim
Offline Goofy  
#2 Posted : 15 June 2012 09:29:01(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,019
Mostley of germans locomotiv are era 2 with DRG symbols.
Search at google.com and you will find more imformation.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Goofy
Offline kimballthurlow  
#3 Posted : 15 June 2012 11:06:31(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,669
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Kim,

The carriage of military tanks required some pretty serious flat cars, usually with 6 axles.

A good example of this is the Marklin 4866 which happens to be in the era of WWII.
See http://www.maerklin.com/en/service/search/details.html?lang=en&page=&perpage=10&level1=3928&level2=3930&artnr=&art_nr=4866&search=1&era=3&gaugechoice=2&groupchoice=2&subgroupchoice=6&catalogue=0&features=0&searchtext=&backlink=%2Fwww.maerklin.com%2Fen%2Fservice%2Fsearch%2Fproduct_search.html

4867 was another car without load, and different running number. You should find these on ebay.de

No doubt Roco and Fleischmann also did similar.

I have a few examples of these Marklin 6 axle flat cars, and they are superb examples, being made mostly in cast metal.

The only issue you might find is that military vehicles and tanks were not made to suit loading gauges, so it is possible that even the 6 axle cars will only take small examples of hardware.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by kimballthurlow
Offline Kim R  
#4 Posted : 15 June 2012 14:31:48(UTC)
Kim R

Australia   
Joined: 06/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 67
Location: Brisbane
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Hi Kim,

The carriage of military tanks required some pretty serious flat cars, usually with 6 axles.

A good example of this is the Marklin 4866 which happens to be in the era of WWII.
See http://www.maerklin.com/en/service/search/details.html?lang=en&page=&perpage=10&level1=3928&level2=3930&artnr=&art_nr=4866&search=1&era=3&gaugechoice=2&groupchoice=2&subgroupchoice=6&catalogue=0&features=0&searchtext=&backlink=%2Fwww.maerklin.com%2Fen%2Fservice%2Fsearch%2Fproduct_search.html

4867 was another car without load, and different running number. You should find these on ebay.de

No doubt Roco and Fleischmann also did similar.

I have a few examples of these Marklin 6 axle flat cars, and they are superb examples, being made mostly in cast metal.

The only issue you might find is that military vehicles and tanks were not made to suit loading gauges, so it is possible that even the 6 axle cars will only take small examples of hardware.

regards
Kimball


Thanks Kimball. Yep from what I have seen the 6 axles were used especially for the heavier tanks like the Panzer VI Tiger, Panzer V Panther, JagdTiger, JagdPanther etc. Here is a photo of a Panther being unloaded from a flat car on the eastern front: Panther
Offline dan67millie  
#5 Posted : 15 June 2012 14:48:46(UTC)
dan67millie


Joined: 09/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 202
Location: England Northamptonshire
Originally Posted by: Kim R Go to Quoted Post
I am working on doing a WW@ german layout of a tank depot/repair workshop. To create the layout I am trying to find out what rolling stock and locomotives where in use during the period and what combinations of wagons where used in the period. To this end I have run across a few bits and pieces on the net (eg Broken rolling stock & More broken rolling stock)

Is anyone else interested in that period who has any good references to useful information?

Kim


Hi German heavy tanks during ww2 were transported on heavy flat cars. All have which have been made by Marklin!, One thing thoe. The Marklin Modern Military range includes a six axle and a four axle type. The four axle was used in ww2 but i think not the six axle!. However Marklin have made a six axle heavy flat car in HO and Z for many years (see photo) This type was used to transport Panthers and Tiger 1 type Tanks. The Tiger 1 types used a special transport tracks as the widw tracks used in Battle were to wide for most of europe for tunnels ect!! (see pics On the pic of the tiger sitting on the flat car you can see it has narrow tracks! But the tiger in Normandy has wide battle tracks!
dan67millie attached the following image(s):
41LXOf1DqVL__SL500_.jpg
Tiger1_hit_02.jpg
afvfv35s25_0.jpg
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by dan67millie
Offline Angus  
#6 Posted : 15 June 2012 14:52:32(UTC)
Angus

South Africa   
Joined: 27/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 202
Location: Johannesburg
If you're prepared to do some plastic model building Revell so 1:87 railway kits, not sure if you'll find something there you could use. I know HobbyBoss also does railway models in various scales and Airfix has a range of OO military vehicles, could be useful for items in your 'repair yard'.

I know they're not to scale but I have two 1:72 Hasegawa plastic kits, a Leopold railway gun and a Karl Morser mortar with Rail carriage, which I intend building and putting on HO wheels so that they will go on my Marklin tracks. The Dora is also on my list of 'like to have' but even in 1:72 it is huge! When I get around to doing a permanent layout (my first) these will stand in my 'open air war museum' :)
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Angus
Offline dan67millie  
#7 Posted : 15 June 2012 16:47:19(UTC)
dan67millie


Joined: 09/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 202
Location: England Northamptonshire
Originally Posted by: Angus Go to Quoted Post
If you're prepared to do some plastic model building Revell so 1:87 railway kits, not sure if you'll find something there you could use. I know HobbyBoss also does railway models in various scales and Airfix has a range of OO military vehicles, could be useful for items in your 'repair yard'.

I know they're not to scale but I have two 1:72 Hasegawa plastic kits, a Leopold railway gun and a Karl Morser mortar with Rail carriage, which I intend building and putting on HO wheels so that they will go on my Marklin tracks. The Dora is also on my list of 'like to have' but even in 1:72 it is huge! When I get around to doing a permanent layout (my first) these will stand in my 'open air war museum' :)


H Angus and everyone interrested. Theres a reel leapold railway gun in france! Approx one hours drive from Calais, at a place could Cap Gris Nez follow this link

http://www.batterietodt.com/photos.html Is a must to see this place you can get on the gun itself!! I have found that building the 1/72 tank kits alot of fun ,although the roco mini tank range would be, in scale with Marklin, they have thoe there tracks molded in with the wheels and are ready made which takes alot of fun out of it in my view!
Offline kbvrod  
#8 Posted : 15 June 2012 18:00:26(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi Kim,all,
Roco MiniTanks,I think offers most WW2 armor.Do not forget Lilput they have done many WW2 wagens,etc.
There is gentlemen on eBay(US) who sells a lot of WW2 wagons and dioramas
A example:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Roco-Ma...3f18b05980#ht_931wt_1037


Dr D


Offline Kim R  
#9 Posted : 15 June 2012 21:41:10(UTC)
Kim R

Australia   
Joined: 06/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 67
Location: Brisbane
Originally Posted by: kbvrod Go to Quoted Post
Hi Kim,all,
Roco MiniTanks,I think offers most WW2 armor.Do not forget Lilput they have done many WW2 wagens,etc.
There is gentlemen on eBay(US) who sells a lot of WW2 wagons and dioramas
A example:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Roco-Ma...3f18b05980#ht_931wt_1037


Dr D



Liliput wagons. Thanks I will check that out. I looked at the ebay link and that guy does some very nice work.
Offline Kim R  
#10 Posted : 15 June 2012 21:49:34(UTC)
Kim R

Australia   
Joined: 06/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 67
Location: Brisbane
Originally Posted by: Angus Go to Quoted Post
If you're prepared to do some plastic model building Revell so 1:87 railway kits, not sure if you'll find something there you could use. I know HobbyBoss also does railway models in various scales and Airfix has a range of OO military vehicles, could be useful for items in your 'repair yard'.

I know they're not to scale but I have two 1:72 Hasegawa plastic kits, a Leopold railway gun and a Karl Morser mortar with Rail carriage, which I intend building and putting on HO wheels so that they will go on my Marklin tracks. The Dora is also on my list of 'like to have' but even in 1:72 it is huge! When I get around to doing a permanent layout (my first) these will stand in my 'open air war museum' :)


I certainly do like modelling. Revel do some 1/76 scale tanks etc which are a bit closer to H0. The leopold would look great on a lyout!

K

Offline Kim R  
#11 Posted : 15 June 2012 21:52:25(UTC)
Kim R

Australia   
Joined: 06/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 67
Location: Brisbane
Originally Posted by: dan67millie Go to Quoted Post

Hi German heavy tanks during ww2 were transported on heavy flat cars. All have which have been made by Marklin!, One thing thoe. The Marklin Modern Military range includes a six axle and a four axle type. The four axle was used in ww2 but i think not the six axle!. However Marklin have made a six axle heavy flat car in HO and Z for many years (see photo) This type was used to transport Panthers and Tiger 1 type Tanks. The Tiger 1 types used a special transport tracks as the widw tracks used in Battle were to wide for most of europe for tunnels ect!! (see pics On the pic of the tiger sitting on the flat car you can see it has narrow tracks! But the tiger in Normandy has wide battle tracks!


Märklin did have the 6 axel in it Era II range though I think. I will do more research. Thanks for the great reply though :)

Offline dan67millie  
#12 Posted : 15 June 2012 22:16:16(UTC)
dan67millie


Joined: 09/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 202
Location: England Northamptonshire
Originally Posted by: Kim R Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: dan67millie Go to Quoted Post

Hi German heavy tanks during ww2 were transported on heavy flat cars. All have which have been made by Marklin!, One thing thoe. The Marklin Modern Military range includes a six axle and a four axle type. The four axle was used in ww2 but i think not the six axle!. However Marklin have made a six axle heavy flat car in HO and Z for many years (see photo) This type was used to transport Panthers and Tiger 1 type Tanks. The Tiger 1 types used a special transport tracks as the widw tracks used in Battle were to wide for most of europe for tunnels ect!! (see pics On the pic of the tiger sitting on the flat car you can see it has narrow tracks! But the tiger in Normandy has wide battle tracks!


Märklin did have the 6 axel in it Era II range though I think. I will do more research. Thanks for the great reply though :)



The new Insider wagon set 46192 wood loads has a flat car which was used to transport light tanks and trucks ect. It is availble in ather sets. See pick of wgon set 46400 which is for DB era3 but these wagons were used by the DRG . German troop trains were usually mixed with heavy flats and smaller normal flats, i e there would be a tiger 1 followed by a truck and then a tiger again. This was done to prevent fighter bombers from attacking trains and taking out to many tanks at once! There is a nice book also on transporting tanks both today and WW2! I will get the details if you wish.
dan67millie attached the following image(s):
46400.jpg
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by dan67millie
Offline Kim R  
#13 Posted : 16 June 2012 00:34:52(UTC)
Kim R

Australia   
Joined: 06/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 67
Location: Brisbane
Originally Posted by: dan67millie Go to Quoted Post


The new Insider wagon set 46192 wood loads has a flat car which was used to transport light tanks and trucks ect. It is availble in ather sets. See pick of wgon set 46400 which is for DB era3 but these wagons were used by the DRG . German troop trains were usually mixed with heavy flats and smaller normal flats, i e there would be a tiger 1 followed by a truck and then a tiger again. This was done to prevent fighter bombers from attacking trains and taking out to many tanks at once! There is a nice book also on transporting tanks both today and WW2! I will get the details if you wish.


That would be great!
Offline petestra  
#14 Posted : 16 June 2012 01:53:27(UTC)
petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,824
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA

Hi, I recently bought this Era II freight car set 46401. It contains 2 freight cars with the buffers painted in white
to signify its ability to be converted to the wider Russian gauge. They were used to bring supplies to the
Russian front. Peter


UserPostedImage
Offline mmrcnzjohn  
#15 Posted : 16 June 2012 10:21:18(UTC)
mmrcnzjohn

New Zealand   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 558
Location: ,
Well guys I love self-perpetuating myths. Without a doubt some of the above is almost bordering on urban legend stuff.

German railways have this thing called a loading gauge. While it is applicable to tunnels, it is also applicable to such things as station platforms, catenary poles, bridges and even trains running in the opposite direction all of which have to conform to the loading gauge. The tiger tanks didn’t have narrower tracks for transporting specifically so they would not hit the tunnel sides (just how many tunnels are there between say Berlin and Moscow) but to conform to the loading gauge so they would not hit the other stuff as well.

Having been an avid modeller of Epoch 2 for a number of years, if you are serious about getting it right then these two web sites are about as good as they get.

For the technical side of it this is the web site http://www.fh-merseburg.de/~nosske/EpocheII/ If its not covered here then you are really looking for something out of left field.

For the voyeurs this is the site http://www.eisenbahnstiftung.de/bildergalerie

Unfortunately both sites are in german but then again if life was meant to be easy then we would not model german trains!!!!!

John
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by mmrcnzjohn
Offline Kim R  
#16 Posted : 16 June 2012 14:12:00(UTC)
Kim R

Australia   
Joined: 06/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 67
Location: Brisbane
Originally Posted by: mmrcnzjohn Go to Quoted Post
Well guys I love self-perpetuating myths. Without a doubt some of the above is almost bordering on urban legend stuff.

German railways have this thing called a loading gauge. While it is applicable to tunnels, it is also applicable to such things as station platforms, catenary poles, bridges and even trains running in the opposite direction all of which have to conform to the loading gauge. The tiger tanks didn’t have narrower tracks for transporting specifically so they would not hit the tunnel sides (just how many tunnels are there between say Berlin and Moscow) but to conform to the loading gauge so they would not hit the other stuff as well.

Having been an avid modeller of Epoch 2 for a number of years, if you are serious about getting it right then these two web sites are about as good as they get.

For the technical side of it this is the web site http://www.fh-merseburg.de/~nosske/EpocheII/ If its not covered here then you are really looking for something out of left field.

For the voyeurs this is the site http://www.eisenbahnstiftung.de/bildergalerie

Unfortunately both sites are in german but then again if life was meant to be easy then we would not model german trains!!!!!

John


Thanks! I am learning a lot
Offline dan67millie  
#17 Posted : 16 June 2012 15:32:06(UTC)
dan67millie


Joined: 09/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 202
Location: England Northamptonshire
Originally Posted by: petestra Go to Quoted Post

Hi, I recently bought this Era II freight car set 46401. It contains 2 freight cars with the buffers painted in white
to signify its ability to be converted to the wider Russian gauge. They were used to bring supplies to the
Russian front. Peter


UserPostedImage


I liked the lok of this set myself do they have metal stakes. Also ive found a picture of more Tigers with transport tracks and there wide battle tracks in front of them!
dan67millie attached the following image(s):
PC010177-1.jpg
Offline dan67millie  
#18 Posted : 16 June 2012 15:50:08(UTC)
dan67millie


Joined: 09/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 202
Location: England Northamptonshire
Originally Posted by: mmrcnzjohn Go to Quoted Post
Well guys I love self-perpetuating myths. Without a doubt some of the above is almost bordering on urban legend stuff.

German railways have this thing called a loading gauge. While it is applicable to tunnels, it is also applicable to such things as station platforms, catenary poles, bridges and even trains running in the opposite direction all of which have to conform to the loading gauge. The tiger tanks didn’t have narrower tracks for transporting specifically so they would not hit the tunnel sides (just how many tunnels are there between say Berlin and Moscow) but to conform to the loading gauge so they would not hit the other stuff as well.

Having been an avid modeller of Epoch 2 for a number of years, if you are serious about getting it right then these two web sites are about as good as they get.

For the technical side of it this is the web site http://www.fh-merseburg.de/~nosske/EpocheII/ If its not covered here then you are really looking for something out of left field.

For the voyeurs this is the site http://www.eisenbahnstiftung.de/bildergalerie

Unfortunately both sites are in german but then again if life was meant to be easy then we would not model german trains!!!!!

John


You might have been a modeller of era 2 for a long time but you are very roung about the Tiger! The Tiger body was built to loading gauge! The transport tracks had to be fitted to allow for transporttaion. The picture clearly shows tigers with there transport tracks in front on the heavy flats!. Compare the the drive wheel on the tiger and look at the track width. Now look at the track being fitted to the Tiger at Bovingdon tank musee in Dorset England. It is much wider is it Not!. Tigers had to have wider tracks in battle because they would sink with the narrow tracks. The early tigers had disk wheels. three layers of them. The outer set would have to be removed to allow transportation when they were sent to the front. By the way the Tiger in Dorset is the only running type left in the World i believe. There is more information about transport tracks on the Tiger 1 information center web site which is in English! http://www.alanhamby.com/suspension.shtml It actually tells you all about it! Please in future try not to be such a no it all. At the end of the day its his train set and we can all do what we like. Tigers may have been transported with battle tracks in Russia as they have a much greater loading gauge than Germany. But if you care to look at the web site you will no i do no what im talking aboutCursing
dan67millie attached the following image(s):
PC010177-1.jpg
E9KCAUE1OWNCABWQLJACA45JIQQCAM2DEP5CA1UN5IXCAFWOT54CA2XOBA4CAM0CMODCAEBPKMSCALEIGYNCA460W3NCAAP8MVPCA948308CAY1KA8CCAL7JJZ6CA9O8I0SCAX9PFXOCA5SKDL2CAE3IE1Y.jpg
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by dan67millie
Offline Angus  
#19 Posted : 18 June 2012 08:32:11(UTC)
Angus

South Africa   
Joined: 27/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 202
Location: Johannesburg
Dan(dan67millie), if I am ever in the area I will definitely pop in to see the Leopold, if I recall correctly Leopold and Kate(i think one of them was called) were used at Anzio. I beleive there is also a Leopold in one of the American museums, I know I read about it somewhere but can't remember exactly.

Kim, Lima also made a Leopold railway gun, there was one up for auction recently on South Africa's very own Ebay, bidorbuy.co.za. When I looked at the pictures though it appears to be quite basic on the detailing side.

Good luck with this little(?) project!
Offline mmrcnzjohn  
#20 Posted : 18 June 2012 10:55:37(UTC)
mmrcnzjohn

New Zealand   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 558
Location: ,
Hi Guys,

The white buffers did signify that the wagon could be converted to Russian Broad gauge, however once the Germans invaded Russia it is my understanding that they started re-gauging the track to european standard gauge. While the wagons could be reguaged, I seem to recall reading somewhere that it took over an hour per wagon to do this. This also explains the rational behind the class 52 being built and destroyed on the eastern front in such large numbers.

In relation to the 6 axle flat car (DRG classification SSyms) construction of them did not begin until 1942 so they were designed specifically to transport the heavy Tiger tank. Interestingly Thomas Norsks site does not know how many were built, presumably due to the amount of stock that was destroyed on the eastern front.

Ultimately my interest is in the period 1928-1932 in Wurttemberg, so my knowledge of WWII is more just an accident than of serious research. However they are interesting pictures. I had never seen a picture of the tank on the wagon with its transportation tracks on and its battle tracks on the same wagon. For some reason I assumed that the battle tracks would be transported in a seperate wagon due to axel loading constraints. However that being said, depending on the date of the photo is post june 1944, there may have been little concern as to the damage to track due to overloading????

Cheers

John
Offline kimballthurlow  
#21 Posted : 13 March 2016 21:28:37(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,669
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi
Just to add up-to-date info for 2016, Marklin have released a set of cars (46088) for 1938 which may help.
These are weathered.
Certainly the flat car with the timber load could be used to transport any type of vehicle.
2 of the same flat cars were included in the 46401 set for era II issued a few years ago. (Photo in post #14 above).
You do not have to use the stakes, they are removeable.

To complement the above car sets, Marklin released in late 2015, a weathered 1938 version of a BR 56.2-8, 2-8-0 freight engine.
Catalog #37 516
UserPostedImage

Regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
thanks 9 users liked this useful post by kimballthurlow
Offline Deborail  
#22 Posted : 23 March 2016 13:00:48(UTC)
Deborail

United Arab Emirates   
Joined: 06/10/2009(UTC)
Posts: 819
Location: RAK
I would suggest two items that I have:

Trix 22531winter camouflage BR 53 loco
and
Rivarossi HR 6186 canon wagon in winter camouflage.

I am looking for more winter camouflage items to complement these...

The 22531 loco is excellent.
George

Given enough time, tasks manage themselves.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Deborail
Offline Token  
#23 Posted : 24 March 2016 07:30:01(UTC)
Token

Australia   
Joined: 25/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 300
Location: Sydney, NSW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Mostley of germans locomotiv are era 2 with DRG symbols.
Search at google.com and you will find more imformation.


Hi Kim,

depending how much detail you wish to go into but I recently read a great book on the history of the German railways, during the Nazi period to 1945. I note that after the Nazis took power, they changed the acronym from DRG to DR, effectively dropping Gessellshaft as the word was apparently not consistent with a state owned enterprise under their regime.

Occasionally you see it refered to as DRB in the literature but mostly it is represented on rolling stock as DR.

The book is called "The Most Valuable Asset of the Reich - A History of the German National Railway Volume 2 1933-1945"by Alfred C. Mierzejewski (in English).

It mostly concentrates on the political, social and economic aspects but does give a brilliant insight into the period.

Regards,

Michael.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Token
Offline kimballthurlow  
#24 Posted : 07 April 2016 09:40:39(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,669
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi,
Today I posted a review of a car set suitable for the WW2 era, Maerklin #46088.
It is shown under the Reviews of Rolling Stock heading.

https://www.marklin-users.net/forum/posts/t35595-46088---Maerklin-era-II-set-of-rolling-stock

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by kimballthurlow
Users browsing this topic
Guest
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2024, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.749 seconds.