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Offline DV  
#1 Posted : 10 May 2012 06:12:38(UTC)
DV

Australia   
Joined: 29/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 960
Location: Mount Barker, South Australia
Searching through videos of my birthplace city (Beograd, a long, long, long, long time ago) railway station, I came across this video.

OK it's not Beograd (I thinkConfused ) and I couldn't find the town/suburb(???) in Google Earth (having left the then known Yugoslavia when I was 5 years old also doesn't help and my Cyrillic is next to useless), I think this is still an excellent video in showing Serbia's rail system and their locos.

But the best part is about 1 minute 45 seconds into the video which makes it so excellent.

That's what I call thinking out of the boxLOL ThumpUp

Anyway I hope you enjoy it.

By the way the title is Second March 2012

Dusan V
'I find your lack of faith (in Märklin) disturbing'
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by DV
Offline NS1200  
#2 Posted : 10 May 2012 06:58:45(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Nice!

I think the town is also called Lajkovac,which is close to the town of Lazarevac,please see Wikipedia.

The electric loco's are interesting,they seem to be the well known Swedish type,used for passengers,freight,everything.
The coaches are obviously typical German.

Tractor is doing its job fine,but why 3 people required to move it???

Finally,people crossing the tracks by foot,is that really smart?

Cheers,
Paul.
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline kariosls37  
#3 Posted : 10 May 2012 07:54:54(UTC)
kariosls37

New Zealand   
Joined: 02/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,067
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Nice shunter. I guess that's why small shunting locos are called shunting tractors here...

Before the advent of tractors, sometimes shunting was done by hand:
http://www.hetutrechtsarchief.nl/collectie/beeldmateriaal/fotografische_documenten/1910-1920/157417

I have also seen a picture of a company employing a horse to shunt wagons in the 1900's.

Good to see that in some places Stationmasters are still dressed properly and smartlyThumpUp

Paul, the one at the station is probably a railway employee, and provided he keeps a look out in both directions there's nothing wrong with it. It does surprise me that they are not wearing "hi-vis" vests, which are near universal everywhere else(for a good reason)

Non-railway employees should not go near rail property though, close shaves can be very scary for railway personnel, and people going where they shouldn't is also very frustrating for railway personnel. And when people crossing tracks where they shouldn't cause injury or worse, it can be very traumatising for Enginedrivers, as you can't really do anything else but put the brake lever into the emergency position, hang on the whistle and hope for the best.

3 people shunting would be quite normal. You need one person to drive the shunter, and unlike a car, most of the time you can't see where you are going, so you need someone on the front of the train which will signal the driver on what to do, keeping eye contact at all times. The third person will either be repeating the second shunter's signals as you can't see part of the train on some curves, and he or the second shunter will also be occupied with putting on handbrakes, coupling or uncoupling and changing points. Often it is much safer to ride on the shunt itself than walking, and if the movements happen to allow the other two shunters to ride in or near to the cab, why not?

Cheers,
Rick
Offline Western Pacific  
#4 Posted : 10 May 2012 17:01:01(UTC)
Western Pacific

Sweden   
Joined: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 841
Location: Lidingö, Sweden
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
Nice!

I think the town is also called Lajkovac,which is close to the town of Lazarevac,please see Wikipedia.

The electric loco's are interesting,they seem to be the well known Swedish type,used for passengers,freight,everything.
The coaches are obviously typical German.

Tractor is doing its job fine,but why 3 people required to move it???

Finally,people crossing the tracks by foot,is that really smart?

Cheers,
Paul.


Hi Paul,

Regarding the locos, the Swedish ones were class Rb and six of them were built with differing electrical equipment all being trial locos for what would come later, the class Rc. The locos wer both exported from Sweden and built in former Yugoslavia on license from ASEA. I took the liberty to link to two photos shown at www.jarnvag.net.

SJ Rb1 1002

SJ Rb2 1003

and as a comparison a class Rc1

SJ Rc1 1013
Offline NS1200  
#5 Posted : 10 May 2012 20:22:44(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Rick,

In Holland,we only need one single person for shunting,that is why we are such a little efficient country.
The locomotives many times show the lightning spark sign,indicating they can be operated by remote control.
The person in charge uses his walky-talky to steer the locomotive.
See my entry in this topic about the NS promotional film in 1989,already in that year you can see remote control in action.
See also my entry about a female german locdriver,she uncouples the 4-axle ore cars herself,without any help.
This doing away with superfluous personel is a general feature in western europe,if it can be done by one person,there is no need to employ three.

Cheers,
Paul.

Edited by user 11 May 2012 21:10:30(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline NS1200  
#6 Posted : 10 May 2012 20:28:31(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Per,

The difference between the various sub types is not clear to me,but one thing is for sure,it is a bestseller from Sweden!
They were also sold to Austria,and do not forget Maerklin X995,the USA Amtrak version.

Paul.
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline Western Pacific  
#7 Posted : 10 May 2012 21:16:50(UTC)
Western Pacific

Sweden   
Joined: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 841
Location: Lidingö, Sweden
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
Per,

The difference between the various sub types is not clear to me,but one thing is for sure,it is a bestseller from Sweden!
They were also sold to Austria,and do not forget Maerklin X995,the USA Amtrak version.

Paul.


Hi Paul,

The classification system that SJ in Sweden used for electric locomotives contains class R - Electric locomotive with bogies having 2 axels for passenger and freight services.

The first class of R locos was Ra, then came Rb, which had three sub variants Rb1, Rb2 and Rb3. The bestseller you refer to is from the Rc types of which there are Rc1, Rc2, Rc3, Rc4, Rc5, Rc6 and Rm. (All Rc5s have been rebuilt to Rc6 and a few Rc6 were for a while rebuilt to Rc7, but have been built back to Rc6). The ÖBB 1043, the X995, NSB El 16 and AEM-7 are all version of the Rc loco family.

Rb1 was initially built using diode rectification and DC motors and this is the type which was also exported to and license built in Yugoslavia. The Rb1 was also used for testing thyristor control (re-classed as Rb1T) and as such a true test version for the Rc family of locos, which are thyristor controlled.

A few facts about some R loco series

Rb.....Top speed 120 km/h.....6 built

Rc1....top speed 135 km/h.....20 built
Rc2....top speed 135 km/h.....100 built
Rc3....top speed 160 km/h.....10 built
Rc4....top speed 135 km/h.....130 built
Rc5....top speed 135 km/h.....60 built (and all rebuilt to Rc6)
Rc6....top speed 160 km/h.....40 built

As a side comment, Green Cargo has kept the R and totally renovated Rc4 have become class Rd and the new TRAXX locos are class Re and the individual numbers of the Re locos follow directly after the last delivered Rc6.
Offline NS1200  
#8 Posted : 10 May 2012 21:24:56(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Per,
If i do well recall,the first one appeared in the Maerklin portfolio in the early seventies.

More or less a similar story with the NS 1600/1700/1800 series,French made,suitable for 1,500 volts DC (DC!) on the Dutch network.
Maerklin kept on turning them out in all sorts of versions,each loco having its unique 'city weapon'.
Funny enough,as from the very first version,the cab was all metal,which is good.

Paul.
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline kariosls37  
#9 Posted : 10 May 2012 21:41:09(UTC)
kariosls37

New Zealand   
Joined: 02/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,067
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Forgot about the RC locos. They have them here as well, but I still sometimes see two shunters at work per loco, which will be more efficient if you have a large amount of coupling and uncoupling to do. However, On a tractor like this it would probably be too expensive to implement. In any case, that will only really be useful in yards where there is a lot of shunting to do, not an industrial siding like this. There is not just one way to do things efficiently, there are many ways, and it largely depends on the amount of stuff to do and the nature. Shunting like this will probably continue for as long as trains exist.

In any case, Europe's meant to be in a recession now, and assuming the railway in question is state-owned, it is a very good way to keep people on a job and out of the benefitThumpUp

Cheers,
Rick
Offline Western Pacific  
#10 Posted : 10 May 2012 21:55:20(UTC)
Western Pacific

Sweden   
Joined: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 841
Location: Lidingö, Sweden
Hi Paul,

You are nearly right. Märklin came with their 3043 SJ Rc 1010 in 1968 (according to Helmut Kern) and I and my brother got ourselves one 3043 the same year. In my mind it was pretty amazing that Märklin were so fast in launching the 3043 since the prototype was delivered to SJ in 1967. Märklin also launched the 4072 and 4073 passenger coaches in 1968 and these coaches are models of SJ 1960-ies series coaches and therefore the most modern on Swedish rails at the time.

(I believe that Sweden was a much more important market then to Märklin compared to today. At that time Sweden was No 2 or 3 in standard of living in the world, the USA being No 1 and Switzerland competing with Sweden for No 2. This fact surely played a role at a time when WWII was only a bit over 20 years away and many countries still suffered from re-building and further developing their societies. Sweden was lucky that we never had to re-build our country).

To bring this back to the topic of shunters - the class Rc1 is today mostly used as shunters. (No need for tractors here! BigGrin ).

Edited by user 13 May 2012 20:52:00(UTC)  | Reason: Typo

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Western Pacific
Offline NS1200  
#11 Posted : 13 May 2012 15:47:58(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Rick,

If you let 3 people do a job which can be done by 1 person than the 3 persons have to share the wages normally earned by the 1 person.
The consequence of this is that the 3 persons have less money to spend and as such are not helping the national economy of a country.
Being employed by the state does not help either because wages earned by civil servants have to be paid by society in one way or the other,which in the end will make a country poorer and poorer.
I have travelled in the Far East and Africa,and everywhere you see the same:too many people performing simple tasks,governments saying they solved the unemployment problem,not so.
Ever arrived on an airport in Africa or SE Asia?
Having to fight your way through local red tape and other total nonsense?
And you know why?
To keep all those uniformed people at work!
And then stepping outside and seeing poverty at work!
Former East Germany (also called DDR,Deutsche Demokratische Republik) no longer exists,there was no official unemployment there,each and every person had some sort of job,on paper that is,people had to suffer for years and years to buy a plastic Trabant car.

In Holland doing away with superfluous jobs has reached the state whereby on some local trainlines the locdriver and conductor are taking turns,it will only be a matter of time before you see the same thing happening on the mainlines.

Cheers,
Paul.
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline kariosls37  
#12 Posted : 14 May 2012 04:01:50(UTC)
kariosls37

New Zealand   
Joined: 02/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,067
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Paul,

Without knowing the real circumstances in that video all we can do is speculate, which will get us nowhere. Employment theory and practice is not my field of expertise, so let's not take that any further either.

I recall that slightly larger shunters, in the form of the ubiqutious NS 209-369 "Sik" (simular to the German Kof) were still used very frequently until 2003, and many were built before WW2. The only reason they were scrapped was because an accident on one of these resluted in their banning because they didn't have a dead-man's system.
As far as I know, the majority were never fitted with RC gear, meaning even in Holland shunting was still carried out in the traditional way less than a decade ago.

In any case, The tractor shown above is typical of the things built by a private industy and would typically only be used for one or two shunts a day, if that. Not really something that justifies RC gear. What may work very well in a big yard with lots of shunting to do may not be efficient at all when you are only doing an hour's shunting a day.... In fact last year I came past a very simular tractor converted for shunting on a daily basis, and although the wagons at that company changed from day to day, I never saw that tractor move.
For all we know this is actually the train crew that is doing the shunting, and once they have put the wagons where they should be they will put the little wee tractor back in it's shed and go off to the next station.

As for regional passenger train crews taking turns driving, all I have to say on that is this:
On the steam trains I help run every member of the crew has to verbally call the state of the signal(e.g. "green on top"), the section names on the token(without the appropriate token, a train is not allowed to enter a section) and a range of other things. Compare that to a single person in the cab, taking turns driving and collecting tickets, with his next/previous collecting turn in his mind, approaching a signal at danger in low visibility.
I know which one I perfer...

Cheers,
Rick
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