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Offline tyrre  
#1 Posted : 15 March 2012 21:35:02(UTC)
tyrre


Joined: 28/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 17
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Hello,

This might be a really stupid question but...

I am currently converting from M to C track and from analog to digital.
The possibility to run routes (and other features) using digital is very nice and if I have several stations I love to have the possiblity to bulid analog switching boards.
Now, if I connect a motor and digital equipment on the turnouts, will it be possible to operate it both ways?
So, the theoretically plan is to have a motor and a decoder to operate the turnout digital but also connect analog cables direct on the motor as in normal analog operation.
Will this work? Is there any other option or do I have to choose either analog or digital opersion for each decoder?

I can come up with these possibilities:
1. The planets align, there is peace in the world and my turnout will move using both ways of operation.
2. In an ill-smelling cloud, the decoder burned to cinder and ashes.
3. Nothing happens since the yellow is connected to analog and the digital yellow (red) using the digital square-wave gets confused.
...

Normally, I would just try, but burning a MS or decoder can be quite expensive...

Even if you have no idea what actually will happen, it would be interesting to hear your best guess.

Regards,
/Tyrre
Recently converted from M to C track and from analog to digital locos but still on temporary occasional floor layouts and with many manual turnouts...
Offline clapcott  
#2 Posted : 17 March 2012 23:40:44(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,448
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Yes it can be made to work with only a few considerations.

Essentially you just need to add your "analogue"switches (aka 7272) to connect the blue wires to ground/return/brown.
1) I always run this ground/return from the same Brown that feeds the k83.
- Personally I always run a separate bus (Brown/Red) for my accessories (k83) and this is usually from a different controller/booster to the one that drives the track(s)

2) The real concerns as I see them
- The Yellow from the k83 is -22v instead of 16V
and
- the pulse width of the 7272 (manual switches) - especially if you have a sticky one
From experience we know that old Marklin points/turnouts are able to survive constant 16V, as when a train sits on a contact track. I do have some reticence about the possibility of driving 22V for any length of time either to a turnout motor or from the k83. This is mitigated if your turnout motors have end cutoff switches at both ends, but signals do not have these.
- If I was paranoid I might add a couple of diodes to protect the k83 transister, but diven this is exactly the same voltage and load (inductive coil) that they are designed for, I have not found a need to deploy these.

All the above not withstanding, I will hop on my hobby horse and encourage you to consider the advantages of feeding your layout control board switches into a s88 (6088x) or switchboard (6041). doing so ...
- eliminates a fair amount of wiring (those extra blue wire contact)
- totally removes the possibility of the analogue button driving a point one way and the digital driving it another
- allows the command station (e.g. CS2 layout diagram) to also accurately reflect the state of the nation - It is otherwise unaware of any manual changes from "the Hand of God"
- the last point extends to any "shadow boards" you may have - MS-App, PC etc - that will show the "real state" because of the common coordination from the command center.

And to really push the point, to anyone in your situation with analogue locos (be it 1 to 1000), and looking to to redo/extend their layout I say "go digital immediately and independently of any plans you (may possibly) have of putting decoders in your locos. Sure you may be weighing the price difference between a k83 and a 7272 but the infrastructural benefits are enormous. In fact a k83 may also add some life to those old sluggish M-Track turnouts and signals you may have (The k83 provides a better "punch" because of its CDU design and the new controllers and extend the standard pulse out to multiple seconds ).

Peter
clapcott attached the following image(s):
k83_ConPnt_ManOverride.PNG
Peter
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by clapcott
Offline LionelMPC  
#3 Posted : 19 March 2012 01:03:43(UTC)
LionelMPC


Joined: 03/05/2005(UTC)
Posts: 213
Location: Washington state, USA
Tyrre,

Right now I have contact tracks (5146/5147/5213) on my m-track layout wired parallel to the k83s so that trains trigger the signals automatically. It has been working fine for me, no problems at all.

The only thing I don't like is that it doesn't trigger the change on the command station (im my case an Ecos), and I am changing over to an s88 so that they will. As mentioned above by Clapcott - who definitely is much more knowledgeable than I am - that's the way to go.

-James
Offline mrmarklin  
#4 Posted : 25 March 2012 04:39:07(UTC)
mrmarklin

United States   
Joined: 27/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 944
Location: Burney, CA
Almost on the turnouts and signals on the ETE Bay Area modules are wired in parallel so that manual controls can be used on the signals and switches. It is very simple. Just add a connection to the k83 outlet you want to use and wire it to a manual button or device.

This is not true analog control, but it works the same.
From the People's Republik of Kalifornia
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by mrmarklin
Offline Goofy  
#5 Posted : 25 March 2012 08:14:02(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,289
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Yes it can be made to work with only a few considerations.

Essentially you just need to add your "analogue"switches (aka 7272) to connect the blue wires to ground/return/brown.
1) I always run this ground/return from the same Brown that feeds the k83.
- Personally I always run a separate bus (Brown/Red) for my accessories (k83) and this is usually from a different controller/booster to the one that drives the track(s)

2) The real concerns as I see them
- The Yellow from the k83 is -22v instead of 16V
and
- the pulse width of the 7272 (manual switches) - especially if you have a sticky one
From experience we know that old Marklin points/turnouts are able to survive constant 16V, as when a train sits on a contact track. I do have some reticence about the possibility of driving 22V for any length of time either to a turnout motor or from the k83. This is mitigated if your turnout motors have end cutoff switches at both ends, but signals do not have these.
- If I was paranoid I might add a couple of diodes to protect the k83 transister, but diven this is exactly the same voltage and load (inductive coil) that they are designed for, I have not found a need to deploy these.

All the above not withstanding, I will hop on my hobby horse and encourage you to consider the advantages of feeding your layout control board switches into a s88 (6088x) or switchboard (6041). doing so ...
- eliminates a fair amount of wiring (those extra blue wire contact)
- totally removes the possibility of the analogue button driving a point one way and the digital driving it another
- allows the command station (e.g. CS2 layout diagram) to also accurately reflect the state of the nation - It is otherwise unaware of any manual changes from "the Hand of God"
- the last point extends to any "shadow boards" you may have - MS-App, PC etc - that will show the "real state" because of the common coordination from the command center.

And to really push the point, to anyone in your situation with analogue locos (be it 1 to 1000), and looking to to redo/extend their layout I say "go digital immediately and independently of any plans you (may possibly) have of putting decoders in your locos. Sure you may be weighing the price difference between a k83 and a 7272 but the infrastructural benefits are enormous. In fact a k83 may also add some life to those old sluggish M-Track turnouts and signals you may have (The k83 provides a better "punch" because of its CDU design and the new controllers and extend the standard pulse out to multiple seconds ).

Peter


Don´t shut the digital power off from the turnout decoder!
The yellow wire should have power to cause the recirculation.


H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline tyrre  
#6 Posted : 30 March 2012 17:03:27(UTC)
tyrre


Joined: 28/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 17
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Thank you all for the useful posts.
Special thanks to Peter for the visual. A picture says more than 1000 words Cool.

First some clarifications:
1. I do not plan to use the Märklin standard control boxes (7272 et.al.) but instead buy non-Märklin electrical switches.
2. I do no longer use any M track. It is all C now for the moment.
3. For the moment I control everything digital with one MS2 but I plan on buying a CS2 so that is what I am planning for.
4. All my old analog locos will be put away or sold. I only run on FX or MFX locos now.

Having that said, I will try to attach some images.
As you may note, I am not an electrician (more than on a hobby basis) but I hope you can understand my drawings Blushing.

Digital Turnouts

Please feel free to correct me when I am wrong or otherwise comment on anything.
The "Analog bypass" picture to the left is exactly the same as Peter drawed but omitting the track power.
In my opinion fairly neat but have the "hand-of-God" - drawback mentioned by Peter and James.

The "Analog to S88" picture to the right I hope is the way to handle the s88 way that was described by Peter.
I also clearly see the benefits from doing this.
The only donwside I can come up with is the cost of the 6088x (which should not be neglected as the switchboard grows).

Now to spice things up I would like to add turnout indicators to my home made switchboard.
The pictures below should be substituted instead of the analog switches in the pictures above.

Turnout Indicators

First: The lamps will actually be LED with safety diode and resistors in serie but for clarification I only drew lamps.
Second, the Light connection "L" can be connected to the track power "B" if I am not using an external light transformer.
Hmm... Wait a minute. Can I do that? As I understand it I cannot use a common gound from the CS2 and an external Light transformer, right?
That means I have to split the ground return for the lamps and use the switching part of the relay go to the red "B" connection instead, right?
The "Analog indicator" to the left uses a standard relay to handle the indications and in the "Digital indicator" I draw a k84 to do the same job.
I will then set the same address on the k84 as on the corresponding k83.

The upside of using the Analog version is:
*. Cost. For some reason, the k84 cost 3 times the k83. Why is that? As I see it I can achieve the same functionality with a k83 and four relays or just four relays from the k83 connected to the turnout (demanding some more cables though).

The upside of using the Digital version is:
*. Is there any? How have you done to indicate turnout positions on your switchboards? Or are you all using PC screens (except James)?
*. Edit: Yes. I believe there is. If I just use a relay on the manual switches, I will only get the indications of the analog movement. If I on the other hand use k84 (or k83+relay or connect the relay directly on the k83 on the turnout) the indicator will change indipendent if the turnout was operated by the analog switch or digital command.

Now, to press it one bit more I am currently only occasional building temporary layouts on my floor.
Still, I like to operate my trains digitally and would like to switch my turnouts easy.
My plan is to build a manual "module-based" switchboard. Each module is hex-shaped and will hold the components shown in the "Analog indicators" picture.
These modules will be placed in the switch board box depending on the current layout and connected.
For everything to be as easy and neat as possible, I would not like any cables on the floor (if possible).
My plan is therefore to use 74460 digital decoders under the ballast on each turnout and 6088x in the switchboard box.
Each module will then occupy 2 inputs on the 6088x encoder.
Edit: I also plan to use some k83 in the switchboard for the relays connection so the indicators will switch indipendent of how the turnout was switched.

In the future, I would like to have a permanent layout so all this is also tests for that.

All comments are welcome!
/Magnus (tyrre)

PS: Sorry that the image below shows twice but I do not know how to remove it Blushing.

Edited by user 01 April 2012 10:19:07(UTC)  | Reason: Missed the upside of using k84...

File Attachment(s):
DigitalTurnouts.bmp (1,023kb) downloaded 983 time(s).
tyrre attached the following image(s):
TurnoutIndicators.bmp
Recently converted from M to C track and from analog to digital locos but still on temporary occasional floor layouts and with many manual turnouts...
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