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Offline Kevin Weis  
#1 Posted : 06 February 2012 00:59:22(UTC)
Kevin Weis


Joined: 19/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 128
Location: Maryland
I recently saw on utube a clip showing a Roco BR 10 I believe that had syncronized smoke and soundThumpUp . I was blown away. Is there a Märklin model in the works to duplicate this?

Regards, Kevin
Offline Rinus  
#2 Posted : 06 February 2012 08:48:03(UTC)
Rinus


Joined: 20/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Wageningen, The Netherlands
Why not try the Roco?

Rinus
Offline TimR  
#3 Posted : 06 February 2012 09:07:01(UTC)
TimR

Indonesia   
Joined: 16/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Jakarta
Originally Posted by: Kevin Weis Go to Quoted Post
I recently saw on utube a clip showing a Roco BR 10 I believe that had syncronized smoke and sound. I was blown away. Is there a Märklin model in the works to duplicate this?


I think this is unlikely...

Not very sure of the exact concept, but how big of a programming that MFX system would need to get the features going on a Marklin steamer?
Then what of the smoke unit required, etc?

Probably the answer is,
it's the same case as to why Roco or any other brands never responded, when Marklin released their own wonder of the worlds; like the Sinus motor, the all-metal Big Boy or the long & non-articulated BR45 model.
Now collecting C-Sine models.
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 06 February 2012 11:07:16(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,466
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Kevin Weis Go to Quoted Post
Is there a Märklin model in the works to duplicate this?
None I heard of - and the new items brochure would have been a good place to announce it.
Roco charge Euro 250 for sound and smoke generator. Is it worth it? Are there enough customers paying Euro 200 for slightly improved smoke?
IMHO the standard Seuthe smoke is a 1 on a scale of 10 - Roco makes a 2 on a scale of 10. Nice try, but I was not impressed.

Roco put the motor in the tender, so they have much space in the boiler.
Märklin would have to put smoke generator and motor into the boiler.

Duplicators do not get much media coverage. Make it better or make something new to call it "world first" to get more attention.

Another good opportunity would be the 2013 Insider Model. Could be a smoking Diesel loco, or a smoking steamer - or something completely different.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline anthpao  
#5 Posted : 06 February 2012 11:55:59(UTC)
anthpao

Greece   
Joined: 20/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 125
Location: Thessaloniki, Greece
I like the Roco BR10 steam locomotive but 500€ is a lot of money.
And you have to consider that this loco doesn't like the R2 Marklin's curved tracks.
Offline Western Pacific  
#6 Posted : 06 February 2012 12:07:49(UTC)
Western Pacific

Sweden   
Joined: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 841
Location: Lidingö, Sweden

As Tom puts it: "Roco charge Euro 250 for sound and smoke generator. Is it worth it? Are there enough customers paying Euro 200 for slightly improved smoke?"

That is one side of the economics of this feature. Then there is the question what IPRs are involved? Has Roco (or a subcontractor issued or pending patents). Given the price difference, then there must a part of this higher price for covering the HW costs and also part for covering SW and and R&D costs, but the question is if the "mark-up" by close to € 250:- is what Märklin would have to raise the price to equip a lok with the same type of smoke feature or would there be a license fees involved as well and how high that would be is difficult to say, but if there is a really strong patent behind, then up to 5% could still be realistic.
Offline RayF  
#7 Posted : 06 February 2012 12:16:45(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,871
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I'm with Tom on my rating of smoke effects on model trains. I think the smoke produced is unrealistic in every way smoke could be. Compared to real smoke, it doesn't look the same, it doesn't move in the same way and isn't even the same colour. Is it meant to replicate steam exhausted from the cylinders or smoke from the fire? It looks like neither!

The addition of synchronisation to the smoke does not add enough to make it worthwhile in my opinion.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 06 February 2012 15:01:28(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,466
Location: DE-NW
For those who haven't seen that loco on video:
https://www.marklin-user...mmoookin-ROCO-DB-10.aspx
Also discussed here:
https://www.marklin-user...del-2011-AC-version.aspx

I wonder if the technique is covered by patents and, if so, who owns them.
It seems Roco are the first to do it in H0, but it was done before at larger scales.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline BrandonVA  
#9 Posted : 06 February 2012 15:09:18(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
I thought MTH had similar technology (synchronized smoke and sound), but maybe Roco was first?
Offline steventrain  
#10 Posted : 06 February 2012 15:59:24(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,704
Location: United Kingdom
I have see Roco BR10 in action at Dublin exhibition last October.

Price about £500 in UK.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline dntower85  
#11 Posted : 06 February 2012 17:21:37(UTC)
dntower85

United States   
Joined: 08/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,218
Location: Shady Shores, TX - USA
MTH does a great job with there synchronization of smoke on there O gauge models.
They use an electric fan that pulses in time with the cylinder strokes. The fan is quite and can't be heard over the sound.
they use the same method in there diesels to match the smoke amount with there engine speed.
There smoke units put out so much smoke it can run you out of the room or set of smoke detectors. I do wish marklin would look in to this ideal
as I never have had that much luck with the seuthe type smoke units the either clog up smoke too little or to much.

Even old American Flyers had a mechanical pump linked to a cam on the drive train that made puffs of smoke in time with the loks speed.
DT
Now powered by ECoS II unit#2, RocRail
era - some time in the future when the space time continuum is disrupted and ICE 3 Trains run on the same rails as the Adler and BR18's.
Offline RayF  
#12 Posted : 06 February 2012 17:50:04(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,871
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: dntower85 Go to Quoted Post
MTH does a great job with there synchronization of smoke on there O gauge models.
They use an electric fan that pulses in time with the cylinder strokes. The fan is quite and can't be heard over the sound.
they use the same method in there diesels to match the smoke amount with there engine speed.
There smoke units put out so much smoke it can run you out of the room or set of smoke detectors. I do wish marklin would look in to this ideal
as I never have had that much luck with the seuthe type smoke units the either clog up smoke too little or to much.

Even old American Flyers had a mechanical pump linked to a cam on the drive train that made puffs of smoke in time with the loks speed.


Triang had a similar system in the '60s on their "Britannia" model.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline EMD_GP7  
#13 Posted : 06 February 2012 22:23:26(UTC)
EMD_GP7


Joined: 23/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 193
Location: U.K. Midlands
Quote:
I thought MTH had similar technology (synchronized smoke and sound), but maybe Roco was first?


Hi, This feature has been around for some time in U.S. prototype H0 scale models.
The first one I bought was from MTH and was a Union Pacific 9000 class with sound and smoke which puffs in synchronisation with the pistons and also the amount of throttle.
This is a 3-cylinder model and is most impressive with working Gresley conjugated valve gear for the inner cylider and even a middle crank and rod !
This was 2.1/2 years ago and since then other locos have been produced mainly by Broadway Limited Imports which is the manufacturer I buy most from.

The reports and videos of the Roco loco where steam issues from the cylinder area of the loco are not very realistic.
It is said that the effect is poor at low speeds and better at speed but this is exactly the opposite of real loco operation.
There are only two reasons for steam from the cylinder area ...

Cylinder drain cocks open.
Leaking glands.

Cylinder drains are only used for starting to clear condensed water from the cylinders and should be closed at speed to save waste and a leaking gland would only be at half the chuff rate of the exhaust.

Regards, Colin.
Offline Kevin Weis  
#14 Posted : 07 February 2012 00:53:38(UTC)
Kevin Weis


Joined: 19/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 128
Location: Maryland
Thanks for the responses! The steam from the cylinders was not realistic as mentioned above. Didn't realize the drive was in the tender.
Offline Jeremy Palmer  
#15 Posted : 07 February 2012 08:51:25(UTC)
Jeremy Palmer

Barbados   
Joined: 15/04/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,464
Location: St. Michael, Barbados
I have quite a few steamers but only two "with smoke" - BR 10 37082 and the 3111 in the video below.

I got the lok (and the video) a couple of years ago from DCC Trains in Cincinnati..................:



Cheers,

Jeremy.
Jeremy.

1). If at first you don't succeed, bungee jumping mightn't be for you.
2). The early bird may get the worm, but it's the second rat that gets the cheese.
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