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Offline Alsterstreek  
#201 Posted : 13 June 2018 15:11:59(UTC)
Alsterstreek

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Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,497
Location: Southwesternmost
Alco prototype lengths:

PA: 65'-8"
PB: 63'-8"

Source: http://www.thedieselshop.us/AlcoPA.HTML#TechData

Consequently, as it is impossible to place an Athearn PB unit on top a Maerklin PA chassis (see: https://www.marklin-user...PA-1-models#post472622), the same should hold true for a Life-Like/Brawa PB shell.

I once had the same idea of creating a Santa Fe Alco PA-PB-PA lash-up. While the Athearn Alco PB running characteristics - when equipped with 11.5 mm diameter wheels by Mabar of Spain - would allow for this, I postponed the project due my inability to source Maerklin-compatible pin connectors to extent the "chords" (see pic) through a PB unit sandwiched between two PA units.

Please let me know if you manage to solve the wiring issue.

:o)

2018-06-13alco-pa-connector.png
Offline 610  
#202 Posted : 14 June 2018 03:14:10(UTC)
610


Joined: 02/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 30
Well, I made the experience that every manufacturer has slightly different measures for the same model. I would not be surprised if the Life-Like/Brawa PB doesn´t have the exact same length like the Athearn PB. But of course, the chance is very high that it will be too short for the Märklin PA chassis, as the PA´s were a bit longer.

I don´t know anything about the Athearn locomotives, but I know that I don´t have any problems with my Rock Island Life-Like (DC model (no Brawa involved!)) E7 B unit running on my C-track. So because of that I assume, that the Life-Like PB should cause no problems too.

Are you sure that none of these 7 pin connectors fits the one in the Märklin PA???
I imagine that when you have one that fits, it should be an easy thing to lay the cables through the PB unit. Especially since some of these connectors on ebay even come with the a male and a female connector already installed at the end of the cables.
I don´t know how that Life-Like PB looks like on the underside, but even if it doesn´t have a hole near the couplers where you could lay through the cables, it shouldn´t be too difficult to drill a hole for the cables.

My concern however is that I don´t know if the Daylight colors of the Life-Like PB match the Daylight colors of the Märklin PA. I would need to have both models next to each other in order to find that out. But actually I don´t wanna buy a PB only to find out later that the colors don´t match. It would be great to know that before, because if the colors don´t match, I would not continue thinking about this project.
By the way I can see on photos that the handrails of the Life-Like PB are white, while on the Märklin PA they´re stainless steel. But that little difference is not dramatic for me. I only care about that the tone of the orange and red matches.
Offline Alsterstreek  
#203 Posted : 14 June 2018 12:56:06(UTC)
Alsterstreek

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Originally Posted by: 610 Go to Quoted Post
... I don´t have any problems with my Rock Island Life-Like (DC model (no Brawa involved!)) E7 B unit running on my C-track. So because of that I assume, that the Life-Like PB should cause no problems too.
I agree, as I am neither having any problems with my six-axle ATSF Life-Like (DC model (no Brawa involved)) E8/9-A unit running on C track:
https://www.marklin-user...sion-projects#post530447


Originally Posted by: 610 Go to Quoted Post
Are you sure that none of these 7 pin connectors fits the one in the Märklin PA???
I imagine that when you have one that fits, it should be an easy thing to lay the cables through the PB unit. Especially since some of these connectors on ebay even come with the a male and a female connector already installed at the end of the cables.
Yay!
Thanks, I am going to order a specimen for testing.

Originally Posted by: 610 Go to Quoted Post
My concern however is that I don´t know if the Daylight colors of the Life-Like PB match the Daylight colors of the Märklin PA. I would need to have both models next to each other in order to find that out. But actually I don´t wanna buy a PB only to find out later that the colors don´t match. It would be great to know that before, because if the colors don´t match, I would not continue thinking about this project.
By the way I can see on photos that the handrails of the Life-Like PB are white, while on the Märklin PA they´re stainless steel. But that little difference is not dramatic for me. I only care about that the tone of the orange and red matches.
There are two videos by an Italian modeller who is running SP equipment in daylight paint scheme by both Maerklin and MTH "sid by side" which might help you to determine if respective daylight colours are matching:

Maerklin Alco PA double-header hauling MTH Daylight coaches:


MTH GS-4 Daylight in front of Maerklin Alco PA:
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#204 Posted : 14 June 2018 15:21:45(UTC)
Alsterstreek

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Maybe of interest in this context - information on SP Alco PB paint schemes:

http://espee.railfan.net/sppa.html
Offline 610  
#205 Posted : 14 June 2018 22:12:38(UTC)
610


Joined: 02/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
Yay! Thanks, I am going to order a specimen for testing.

Great! I´m happy I could help you!

If it fits, I think this one could be the best choice because it´s 20 cm long, so it´s long enough to cross the PB and so you only need one since it´s long enough connect the male connector of the rear PA (which would reach into the PB body) with the female connector of the front PA. That would truly be a very easy thing then if the cables are not too thick. Because if they are too thick, it could probably cause some flexibility problems...
Good luck and please let me know when you have it how your testing was! I´m really curious to know that!

Thanks for the videos. Well, MTH is not Life-Like so there might be some color differences too. In these videos I can see that the Märklin PA has a brighter red and orange, while the MTH cars have a darker red and orange. But that´s ok. I don´t mind if there is a color difference between the locomotives and the cars. I only care that the PB has the same color tone like the PA´s. Click on the photos and look at this and this Life-Like PB. I would say that the red tone is definetly a bit darker than on the Märklin PA´s. Do you agree? I just don´t know how big the contrast to the Märklin PA´s would be...
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#206 Posted : 15 June 2018 10:39:49(UTC)
Alsterstreek

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I will communicate the outcome of the cable adventure, but that will take some time (between EU member states postal delays are as long as intercontinental ones between the US and the EU...)

Originally Posted by: 610 Go to Quoted Post
I would say that the red tone is definetly a bit darker than on the Märklin PA´s.


Indeed it does look darker. However, photographs can be fooling (I once bought a supposedly black MTH loco that turned out to be very dark blue). Anyway, for that price I would order the Life-Like P2K Alco PB and get masking tape as well as a rattle spray can ready in order to retouch the red areas if needed.

Edited by user 18 June 2018 11:49:18(UTC)  | Reason: Two words added for clarification.

Offline 610  
#207 Posted : 15 June 2018 16:40:05(UTC)
610


Joined: 02/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
I will communicate the outcome of the cable adventure

Great. I´m curious to hear form your results.
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
Anyway, for that price I would order the Life-Like P2K Alco PB

Sounds like you really wanna motivate/convince me to buy it haha.

Btw: I never ever spray-painted something yet. I only handpainted so far by using exclusively Revell "AquaColor" acrylic paint. Worked out very nice so far. But Revell does not have such a red that the Märklin PA´s have. Which red color from which producer would you use in this case?
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#208 Posted : 16 June 2018 01:04:03(UTC)
Alsterstreek

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Originally Posted by: 610 Go to Quoted Post
Sounds like you really wanna motivate/convince me to buy it haha.
Yes, it is always easy to spend other people´s money.
:0)

Originally Posted by: 610 Go to Quoted Post
I never ever spray-painted something yet. I only handpainted so far by using exclusively Revell "AquaColor" acrylic paint. Worked out very nice so far. But Revell does not have such a red that the Märklin PA´s have. Which red color from which producer would you use in this case?
My very first loco paint job was done "manually", and I was not happy with the result. Ever since I spray-paint, using cans bought at the DIY shop. I go there with a loco shell in one hand and holding the hand of the younger generation in the other and compare the loco shell colors with what I find on the shelf, leaving the final decision to my artsy offspring.

According to below website Accu-Paint is offering relevant model paints:
http://modelingthesp.com...quipment/S.P._Paint.html

AP-14 NH Socony Red = perfect match for Daylight Red.
AP-96 SP Daylight Orange

I do not know where you are residing, but Accu-Paint is available via Walthers in the USA.

Another US-based source:
http://www.minutemanscal.../ScalecoatColorChart.pdf
Offline jerdenberg  
#209 Posted : 17 June 2018 11:39:19(UTC)
jerdenberg

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Some years ago, I added to my UP PA 600 and 601 (37610/49610) road number 602, using parts from Trix 22301 and a NY Central PA from start set 29570 that I got dirt cheap on Ebay. Then I added a slider and an ESU decoder to the now Trix NY Central PA, and this runs fairly well on the layout. Even though it still produces a lot more noise than my Big Boys, the ESU-driven PA sounds a lot better than those with the Märklin decoder.

Here is a short video to illustrate the difference.

Jeroen
Figomima division, UP; mostly figment of my imagination yet.
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#210 Posted : 26 June 2018 10:08:35(UTC)
Alsterstreek

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Location: Southwesternmost
Originally Posted by: 610 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
I will communicate the outcome of the cable adventure

Great. I´m curious to hear form your results.


I ordered an array of various products for testing, which the postal service just delivered. I had no time to check on a living beast (aka loco) yet, but most of the connectors are too big. There is only one serious and/or promising contestant in the bag, the "7Pin ZH 1.5mm Mini Micro JST Stecker 15cm Kabel 28AWG +Buchse 7 PIN 1 2 3 4 5 10".
7Pin ZH 1.5mm Mini Micro JST Stecker 15cm Kabel 28AWG +Buchse 7 PIN.jpg
https://www.ebay.de/itm/...sid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

I hope to find some time on the weekend for further experiments.

Edited by user 26 June 2018 19:32:31(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Alsterstreek  
#211 Posted : 27 June 2018 10:01:40(UTC)
Alsterstreek

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Location: Southwesternmost
7-pole connectors: So I tried at home, but unfortunately no success. Neither of the many German-made cable connectors ordered is matching the one of the Alco.

Here the largest one in comparison with the Maerklin one (black cables): too big.
2018 cable neg3 (1).jpg
Here the smallest one in comparison with the Maerklin one (black cables): too small.
2018 cable neg3 (2).jpg
Offline jerdenberg  
#212 Posted : 27 June 2018 11:24:24(UTC)
jerdenberg

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Location: Den Helder, Noord-Holland
I could imagine an "ugly" solution to be cutting the cables close to the male Märklin connector, connecting them to a female small alternative, and glueing the latter on top of the female Märklin connector on the pcb?
Figomima division, UP; mostly figment of my imagination yet.
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#213 Posted : 27 June 2018 12:06:57(UTC)
Alsterstreek

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Originally Posted by: jerdenberg Go to Quoted Post
I could imagine an "ugly" solution to be cutting the cables close to the male Märklin connector, connecting them to a female small alternative, and glueing the latter on top of the female Märklin connector on the pcb?
Yes, this frivolous thought crossed my mind, too. However, I would attack the female connector instead. The 49611 female connector is dangling at the end of cables, while the male connector is sitting "tight" on a 37611 board - see image.
connectors 2018-06-27.png
Offline jerdenberg  
#214 Posted : 27 June 2018 12:52:46(UTC)
jerdenberg

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Ah, we used different definitions of male/female, I think; I looked only at the white hulls.

My ugly solution (essentially adding a make/break connection in the existing cable) would be:
(1) Cut the cables that come from 49611 close to the connector that goes into 37611, but away far enough to make step (2) possible;
(2) attach the smaller alternative to the 37611 connector to the "37611 end" of the cables, and the matching connector to the other end.
The 37611 and 49611 can then still be coupled directly, and a B-unit would only need a cable set with the smaller connectors.

Jeroen
Figomima division, UP; mostly figment of my imagination yet.
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#215 Posted : 27 June 2018 17:06:11(UTC)
Alsterstreek

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Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
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Location: Southwesternmost
Clear.
:O)

Having a Athearn Alco PB undercarriage and a ATSF swap shell at my disposal, I am tempted to create an ATSF A-B-A lash-up. I have done a lot of nasty things to locos, but I have the utmost respect of the 37611/49611 couple as long as the original decoder is still alive and kicking...
:O/
Offline 610  
#216 Posted : 28 June 2018 10:54:10(UTC)
610


Joined: 02/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 30
@Alsterstreek: Puuuh looks a bit complicated! I´m a bit overburdened now. But I hope you can still somehow make it!
@jerdenberg: I need to see it graphically what you wrote. Then it will be easier for me to understand. But let´s wait, maybe Alsterstreek will surprise us with a solution soon...
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Offline jerdenberg  
#217 Posted : 28 June 2018 11:34:21(UTC)
jerdenberg

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@610: essentially, it would mean inserting a male/female connection into the existing cable, leaving the Märklin connectors where they are; the connection would be close to the 3761* end of the cable so the additional connectors would be within the shell of the 3761*, and 3761* could still be used alone.

Long ago I had bought an unpowered Proto 2000 PA-B with an A-B-A consist in mind, but when I did a preliminary test by attaching it to a 37610 fitted with a Kadee coupler and coupled a string of cars to it, one of the PA-B couplers broke during the test run. I still have to replace it by a matching Kadee coupler, but I must gather some courage to try and open the coupler box:

Proto 2000 coupler box

Jeroen
Figomima division, UP; mostly figment of my imagination yet.
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#218 Posted : 28 June 2018 12:24:19(UTC)
Alsterstreek

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Location: Southwesternmost
Originally Posted by: 610 Go to Quoted Post
@Alsterstreek: Puuuh looks a bit complicated! I´m a bit overburdened now. But I hope you can still somehow make it!
@jerdenberg: I need to see it graphically what you wrote. Then it will be easier for me to understand. But let´s wait, maybe Alsterstreek will surprise us with a solution soon...

Basically it means this - see image.

cables2018-06-28pa.png
Offline Alsterstreek  
#219 Posted : 28 June 2018 12:28:13(UTC)
Alsterstreek

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Originally Posted by: jerdenberg Go to Quoted Post
I still have to replace it by a matching Kadee coupler, but I must gather some courage to try and open the coupler box:
I know what you mean, and I am feeling with you.
:o/

Offline jerdenberg  
#220 Posted : 28 June 2018 13:05:10(UTC)
jerdenberg

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It is a deplorable tendency to replace the good old fastening screws by snap-fitting constructions. With the coupler box, I can at least see the construction (although it still does not feel right to have to bend things), but the remote control of my audio set has the infamous design with hidden snap-ins – I used the well-known credit card/dull knife technique when trying to open it, but as yet did not get to a point where it yielded.
Figomima division, UP; mostly figment of my imagination yet.
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Offline BrandonVA  
#221 Posted : 28 June 2018 18:33:48(UTC)
BrandonVA

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Regarding the matching of paint, here is some indirect evidence. I do not have the SP Alcos, so I cannot compare that livery. However, I find the Proto 2000 units in Rio Grande liveries tend to be a bit more orange than the Marklin units. Overall from a prototype perspective it is difficult as the yellows did become more orange as time went on. However, I think in the case of the Alcos Marklin is actually more correct to the prototype. I suspect that this sort of thing will be common, I doubt that any Proto 2000 unit will be a perfect match for Marklin.

Marklin 37612 and Proto 2000 PB unit (unpowered):

UserPostedImage

-Brandon
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Offline jerdenberg  
#222 Posted : 28 June 2018 22:14:28(UTC)
jerdenberg

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I also find (in the case of Union Pacific) the Proto 2000 colours somewhat different from the Märklin ones. Even the colours of different Proto 2000 models differ somewhat, if my PB and E6B are representative. I don't mind, as the real engines could also be different shades of yellow, depending on shop, age, weather conditions, last cleaning, etc.

Here is a video showing the unlikely combination of a 37610 (coupler exchanged for a Kadee) with a Proto 2000 PB and E6B (both unpowered, unmodified), stock cars from Bachmann (first three, no modifications), Märklin (with couplers exchanged for Kadees) and Trix (no modifications), and Märklin caboose 3771 (45702). The stock cars originally were part of a train with Big Boy 4015 at the head, which I split after the "transition car" with a Märklin coupler at the front and a Kadee at the back (all cars preceding it have Märklin couplers, those following it have Kadees). The Big Boy appears first in the video below, with what is left of its original train; then the 37610 train, and finally the 37610 train, but with 37610 exchanged for a modified Trix 22301 with an ESU decoder.



Update: As can be seen in the video, I have replaced the faulty coupler on the PB – it was fairly easy after all. The problem with the coupler raises a question, however. The Märklin PA-PA combination wisely has a rigid "coupler" between the two engines. This will almost certainly survive the shock of, e.g., a head-on collision. I wonder what happens in such a situation to the PB couplers [or the PB itself?], with the PB caught between the two heavyweights?

Jeroen

Edited by user 29 June 2018 13:21:20(UTC)  | Reason: Update

Figomima division, UP; mostly figment of my imagination yet.
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Offline 610  
#223 Posted : 30 June 2018 08:45:27(UTC)
610


Joined: 02/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 30
Here is a drawing I created. This is how I understand the possible solution (a solution where the the two A units can be used together again when you don´t want to operate them with the B unit). Please correct me if I´m wrong.
DSCN0010.JPG
@jerdenberg: I´m shocked that one of the couplers of the PB broke!!! How many cars did you have attached during that test run?
So does that mean these Life Like PB´s come with cheap plastic couplers? The Kadee couplers are all metal, right? Do you think the breaking of the coupler would not have happened if a powered PA was behind it (that kind of "pushes" it a little bit?
@BrandonVA: Yes, colors of your Life Like RG PB looks a bit more intense/stronger than on the Märklin RG PA. What did you do with your Life Like PB in the end? Run it behind a single Märklin RG PA?
@jerdenberg again: I like your UP PA-1-PB-1-E6B trio! The color difference looks still acceptable I think!
I don´t know for the UP, but on the SP, A-B-B trios of a leading PA and two E7B´s were common between October 1953 and summer 1959. Here is a pic of the eastbound Sunset Limited in November 1954 with exactly such a combination:
DSCN0022.JPG
Actually, such a combination would be a nice solution for me, because I could use the leading Märklin SP PA-1 and two Life Like SP E7´s. But because of 2 reasons, I won´t do that:
1. My 1950-1953 Sunset Limited is super heavy. It has a total weight of 4,2 kg and will become even a little bit heavier once I finished installing lights, interiors and passengers. My Märklin SP PA-1-PA-1 double unit is the ONLY loco that can pull it. A single PA-1 could not pull it. Both units are definetly needed to pull it. I also know that the Brawa E7A could not pull it because it´s much lighter than the Märklin PA, has only 3 powered axles, only one motor of course and fewer traction tires. So I can forget to have my Sunset Limited being pulled by a protoypically correct E7 A-B-B unit.
2. Having such a PA-E7B-E7B trio for my Sunset Limited (west of San Antonio) would be wrong as I model the Sunset Limited until April 1953 but not later. West of San Antonio PA´s did not show up before October 1953.

@everybody: Take a look and read through this, so you will understand my situation and problem. Let me know your thoughts!
DSCN0011.JPG
My problem is basically that I want a SP diesel trio to pull my Sunset Limited west of San Antonio and my Golden State west of Tucumcari.
An E7 A-B-B trio would be perfect and correct, but because my Sunset Limited is too heavy, I cannot use such an option.
I could easily use that E7 A-B-B trio for my Golden State, but actually I don´t wanna spend money for a diesel trio to be used only for one train (Golden State). Especially not since for this train I already have correct steam power (until late 1953 steam locomotives in many cases pulled the Golden State and Sunset Limited).
So my drama is that my Sunset Limited is too heavy, but I want the same diesel trio for both trains west of Tucumcari/San Antonio.
So my only option so far is that PA-PB-PA solution with my Märklin PA´s and Life Like PB, although I know it would not be correct for this era.
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Offline jerdenberg  
#224 Posted : 30 June 2018 22:11:13(UTC)
jerdenberg

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610, thanks for your post!

Indeed, your drawing is as suggested for an A-B-A solution.

With respect to the PB coupler, I'm not sure if "broken" is the right word; I had seen on superficial inspection that the spring was missing, but when I removed it I found it to be different from the coupler on the other side, and looking decidly cheaper. Could be that the previous owner messed it up. The test I did was something like 10 years ago, in another house and with another track configuration, so I do not remember the exact circumstances – only that the number of cars must have been considerable (50–60ish), and the incident had something to do with the 37610 jerking over bad contacts. I have now run the 37610/PB/E6B combination with an additional 4 Athearn heavyweights, the 17 stock cars and the caboose without problem.

As to colour, the Athearn heavyweights are yet another shade of yellow, closer to that of the 37610 than to those of the Proto 2000s. As the heavyweights are from such a different generation than the PA and E6B, I don't mind.

I suppose you tested whether the single PA-1 will not do the job for your Sunset Limited? Up to now, I have not been able to make my single 37610 stall. The latest test was to have it start with the following train:
54 40' boxcars (45646 etc.)
20 hoppers (45800 etc)
19 reefers (45680 etc)
9 tank cars (45580 etc)
Proto 2000 PB & E6B
4 Athearn heavyweights
16 stock cars (3 Bachmann, rest 45690 etc.)
2 cabooses
I couldn't let it make a round with this train (it did run easily with a shorter version, ending after the tank cars – the longest possible before it would bite its tail). Admittedly, my layout is flat as a pancake, although it has some nasty s-turn obstacles.

For realism, I think there have been so many documented cases of emergency solutions for engine failures that almost anything goes (one spectacular photograph I remember was a Union Pacific Big Boy piloted by an F7 …), so wouldn't it be possible that a PA-PB(-PA) was used at a time to back up for a failing E7?

Jeroen
Figomima division, UP; mostly figment of my imagination yet.
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#225 Posted : 01 July 2018 12:35:42(UTC)
Alsterstreek

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Location: Southwesternmost
Ambitious you are. I stick to an era and prototype which allows for shorter solutions.
ATSF67-alco-pa-edelstein-il.png
ATSF Alco PA double-headers pulled the shortened "Grand Canyon" long-distance train between Chicago and Kansas City in 1967.

Already covered here:
https://www.marklin-user...-short-trains#post442213
https://www.marklin-user...-short-trains#post443139

ATSF 23-24 short 1967.png
http://santafe.gmbus.com
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Offline jerdenberg  
#226 Posted : 03 July 2018 12:10:46(UTC)
jerdenberg

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Here is an illustration of the slack in a 104-car (2-truck cars, 416 axes) pulled by one of my PA's. I filled one round on my layout with the train maximally stretched (slack stretched), then had the PA back up to get the opposite situation (slack bunched – rather more difference than in the real thing), then ran the PA forward again to stretch slack. The cars next to the PA are at about half the train length.

Oh, and left to the PA are two of the Athearn heavyweights I mentioned in an earlier post …



Jeroen
Figomima division, UP; mostly figment of my imagination yet.
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#227 Posted : 03 July 2018 12:45:23(UTC)
Alsterstreek

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So like the UP you re-geared the Alco PA for freight service?
:o)
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#228 Posted : 03 July 2018 13:14:58(UTC)
Alsterstreek

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Location: Southwesternmost
BTW - ATSF Alco PA double-header demoted to freight service:

https://www.marklin-user...O-PA-1-models#post473268
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Offline jerdenberg  
#229 Posted : 03 July 2018 13:34:06(UTC)
jerdenberg

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Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
So like the UP you re-geared the Alco PA for freight service?
:o)

Well, I'm in a special secret UP division that has a chronic shortage of motive power, so they grab anything they can get hold of to keep 'em rolling Cool. The PA will be pulling streamliners when the envisaged Jeronimo cut-off, with easier curves, is finished and streamliners can at last traverse the Figomima division – but that is waiting for the consent of higher management …
Figomima division, UP; mostly figment of my imagination yet.
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#230 Posted : 03 July 2018 18:23:36(UTC)
Alsterstreek

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All certified prototypical:

"Built in 1947 and 1949, they [= Union Pacific Alco PA locos] were re-assigned to freight service in 1958. 20 tons of ballast were added to each unit and the gear ratio was changed from 60:23 to 74:18. They were retired in 1964 and 1965 except for 607, which was retired in 1961."

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/13/t/170501.aspx
(see March 10, 2010 2:43 PM post)
Offline jerdenberg  
#231 Posted : 03 July 2018 22:20:05(UTC)
jerdenberg

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Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
All certified prototypical: …

Indeed – I read exactly that same post earlier today, during an unsuccessful attempt to find out what type of air horn was used on the UP PAs. I cannot yet re-gear mine, as it was unceremoniously grabbed out of its normal passenger role to pull the freight train, but will have to return to passenger service (my division is at a point somewhere just before the demote of the PAs …).

Jeroen

Figomima division, UP; mostly figment of my imagination yet.
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Offline 610  
#232 Posted : 03 July 2018 22:30:32(UTC)
610


Joined: 02/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 30
@Alsterstreek: No no, I´m not that ambitious. I if I really was, I would spend over 6000 $ for a 16 car Challenger Imports brass Golden State train set! Laugh You´re lucky with your short late 60´s Grand Canyon Limited! Definetly an easier choice to model than a 14 car Golden State like in my case!

@jerdenberg: Thanks for the confirmation about my drawing! Good to know that I understood and drew it correctly!
Does your PA pull 104 freight cars alone??? Single A unit? I´m shocked! And 104 cars is a huge train! Do you have a warehouse to fit such long trains? I´m even more shocked!Blink
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#233 Posted : 04 July 2018 10:54:16(UTC)
Alsterstreek

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The San Diegan was a good contender, too:
0c91ee861f6a0594f6237f167cdfbd1f.jpgqqq8592a.jpg
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#234 Posted : 04 July 2018 11:46:44(UTC)
Alsterstreek

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Originally Posted by: 610 Go to Quoted Post


I also know that the Brawa E7A could not pull it because it´s much lighter than the Märklin PA, has only 3 powered axles, only one motor of course and fewer traction tires. So I can forget to have my Sunset Limited being pulled by a protoypically correct E7 A-B-B unit.

How about using a lathe for cutting grooves into the running surface of wheels in order to equip them with traction tires? I had that done once for a Kato Alco RS with astonishing results.


Offline jerdenberg  
#235 Posted : 04 July 2018 13:22:56(UTC)
jerdenberg

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Location: Den Helder, Noord-Holland
@610, indeed, the PA has no problem with 104 cars, and I think that is not the limit … Of course, these are mainly 40' boxcars, reefers and stock cars, and slightly longer 3-bay hoppers.

Having the PA pull all of these cars required a trick. My layout (more of a tischbahn really, see simplified picture without switches) is a contorted double track oval along the walls of a ~4×4m (~13×13ft) room; I filled the inner track with cars in such a way that I could attach cars on the outer track over a switch, leaving about a car's length of inner track before the switch open for the PA to move before it would crash into the cars on the switch.

UserPostedImage

In the meantime, I have converted a Trix 22805 PA-PA combination, comparable to 37610/49610 (but with RP25 wheels and a very simple, silent, dcc decoder) for three-rail, and it runs fine on the layout. The only problem I encountered, for both 37610/49610 with a Kadee coupler and 22805 with its "native" knuckle coupler, was that they decoupled from the E6B while running; however, this decoupling of the E6B also happened with one of the Bachmann stock cars inserted between engine and E6B, but not when I added the PB between the stock car and the E6B. Further investigation is necessary here …

Jeroen
Figomima division, UP; mostly figment of my imagination yet.
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#236 Posted : 04 July 2018 13:57:54(UTC)
Alsterstreek

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Location: Southwesternmost
Impressive.
Originally Posted by: jerdenberg Go to Quoted Post
@610, indeed, the PA has no problem with 104 cars, and I think that is not the limit … Of course, these are mainly 40' boxcars, reefers and stock cars, and slightly longer 3-bay hoppers.
And all on level ground.

On my layout, the maximum is 30 x 50 ft tin plate box cars. However, the limit is not due to loco pulling power restrictions but owed to the fact that the first cars of a drag tend to topple "into" inclined curves when an uphill train is too long.

Edited by user 04 July 2018 18:45:13(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline 610  
#237 Posted : 04 July 2018 19:33:34(UTC)
610


Joined: 02/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
How about using a lathe for cutting grooves into the running surface of wheels in order to equip them with traction tires? I had that done once for a Kato Alco RS with astonishing results.

Wow, I´m astonished you managed to do that! I had this idea in my head for years, but not for my diesels but for my steamers. But I don´t have the skills and tools to do something like this. I but I would love some of my engines to have traction tires because it really would increase their pulling power a lot!

Sorry for going a bit off topic now but I really would like to explain you my problems now.

I have a Mehano SP 4-4-0 that was converted to AC and that pulls six Roundhouse 6 axle Palace cars. It can barely pull it on ground level, but already at the slightest grade, it stalls. I would love to operate this train on grades too, and I know it could do that with traction tires.
DSCN0202.JPG

Then I have a Mehano C&O (AC model straight from the factory) that was modified into a RI 4-8-2. It´s supposed to pull 2 trains of mine: My 14 car Golden State and my 16 car Imperial.
My Golden State has 11 4 axle streamliner cars and 3 6 axle heavyweight cars. My RI 4-8-2 can pull it, but it´s operating at it´s limit. One car more and I´m sure it would not be able to pull it anymore. And it can pull my 14 car Golden State only on level ground. Here too I would love it to be able to pull that train on grades as well.
My Imperial has 12 6 axle heavyweight cars and 4 4 axle freight cars (1 express reefer & 3 express box cars). So 16 cars alltogether. This train my RI 4-8-2 cannot pull because it´s heavier than the Golden State. So for the Rock Island portion of my Imperial, I´m using a DL-107A-E7B-E6A trio which is prototypically correct. But of course, I would like my RI 4-8-2 to pull it too (same as the Golden State from Chicago to Kansas City and the diesels from Kansas City to Tucumcari).
DSCN0001x.JPG

Then I have a Mehano SP 2-10-2 with Bachmann tender that was converted to AC. It´s supposed to pull my 11 car El Costeño (from Tucson, Arizona to Guadalajara in Mexico) which is made up of 6 4 axle Roundhouse Harriman cars and 5 Rivarossi heavyweight cars. It can pull this train ok, but on grades it gets critical too. And I would love this 2-10-2 to pull my 33 car freight train (featuring 6 tin plate cars), but it cannot pull it. That´s bad because I don´t want to make it pull only a short 20 car freight train. I want it all or nothing. So I´m convinced that traction tires would help here too.
IMG-20160804-WA0015.jpg

I also have a heavy brass Max Gray SP 4-10-2 which I´m currently upgrading with DCC and converting to AC in these days. My texan friend who bought and upgraded this engine for me did this great video of it showing it running on his beautiful layout. This engine can run through R3 curves which was the reason why I purchased it at all, because if it couldn´t, it would make no sense for me to buy it because I don´t have space for larger curves. It´s supposed to pull my 14 car Golden State and my 16 car Imperial (along with my MTH SP 4-8-4). I know it should not have problems with pulling these trains, as for example the MUCH lighter Mehano RI 4-8-2 can pull the Golden State too as described above. But this SP 4-10-2 I would also like to use for my 33 car freight train of course. And after watching the video of my friend, I was very negatively surprised to see how much it slowed down on his grade with only 12 plastic freight cars!!! I really want it to pull my 33 car freight train, and remember that my freight train also features 7 Märklin tin plate cars (also the Märklin gondolas and flat cars that I have for it are much heavier than those by US manufacturers). My friend told me that when the engine is going uphill at slow to medium speeds, it does not slow down. Only at high speeds (in the video shown at maximum speed) it slows down. So if it already slows down so much with only 12 cars, what would then happen with 33 cars??? That´s why I am convinced that traction tires would help very much here too! The 3 cylinder SP 4-10-2´s were such beasts; they would look ridiculous if I would only be able to have them pull 10 to 20 freight cars!
DSCN0048.JPG

I know that some US model railroaders use Bullfrog Snot for traction-tire-less locomotives, but this is not an option for me, as it would be needed to be applied again and again with the time. Only traction tires are a solution for me!
But installing traction tires could be complicated too:
I could do it the easy way of course and install the traction tires on the last set of drivers on each of the mentioned steamers. But the point is that it makes much more sense to install the traction tires on the powered driver, which is never the rear driver but the center driver in case of 10 coupled steamers and the second driver in case of 8 coupled steamers. Because the directly powered center/second driver is more important than the indirectly (via the rods) powered rear driver. So to have the maximum advantage from the traction tires, it would be better to install them on the center/second drivers than on the rear driver.
Installing traction tires on the rear drivers would be an easier thing because taking off the rear drivers is much easier to do than taking off the center drivers or second drivers because all the rods and the gears. I would not dare to do that because I never did such a thing before and therefore would be afraid that I would not be able to install it back. But the rear drivers with their much easier access would not be a problem for me (on the 4-4-0 I would install the traction tires on the rear driver anyway).
But I also thought about another option: Maybe installing 4 traction tires on the 2 indirectly powered rear drivers (4th and 5th driver on 10 coupled and 3rd and 4th driver on 8 coupled steamers) would be equal to 2 traction tires on the directly powered center/second driver. What do you think would be the smartest solution here?
DSCN0018.JPG
If you would tell me that you could cut in grooves into the running surfaces of the wheels of these steamers that I mentioned, I would send them to you if that would be possible. But I would send only the wheels if the option with 2 traction tires on the rear drivers or 4 traction tires on the rear drivers would be chosen. In case the option of traction tires on the center/second driver would be chosen, then I would send the whole locomotive as I don´t dare to uninstall the center/second driver and install it back.

@jerdenberg: Nice layout plan and smart solution to run such long trains!!! What do you think is the total weight of such a 104 car freight train??? Because if it surpasses 4,2 kg and your PA can pull such weight alone, then something must be wrong with my PA duo!

About the diesels:
The Brawa E7A has 1 motor, 3 powered axles and 4 traction tires.
The Märklin PA-1 A-A has 2 motors, 4 powered axles and 8 traction tires.
Also, one Märklin PA is heavier than one Brawa E7A.

Here is my explanation why I think that my PA´s are operating at their limit when pulling my 4,2 kg heavy 14 car brass Sunset Limited:
When I start the train, the motor sound of my PA´s starts a little bit before my PA´s start to move. Also when the train stops, the motor sound is still on for a little bit after my PA´s have already stopped. This is why I´m sure that they are operating at their limit, because they don´t react like this with any other train. I think it would have been better if Märklin built each PA with at least 3 powered axles instead of only 2, because I´m convinced that then my PA´s would not be operating at their limit when pulling my 14 car brass Sunset Limited. But anyway, I´m happy they do pull it at all, and these few moments where I hear the motor working before they move or after they stopped, is something I can live with.

What I´m trying to point out with this is that I see no chance in a single powered Brawa E7A to pull my 14 car brass Sunset Limited, although it has only 1 powered axle less than the Märklin PA-1 A-A.
By the way it´s also interesting to see what Brawa did with the DL-107. Their DL-107 also has 4 traction tires like their E7A, but it has 4 powered axles: The first axle of the front truck is powered and the 3 axles of the rear truck. I wonder why Brawa did not do that with their E7A too, because 1 more powered axled would of course increase it´s pulling power.
On the Rock Island portion, my Golden State and my Imperial will be pulled by my DL-107A-E7B-E6A (E6A shell on E7A chassis). That means with 7 powered axles and 8 traction tires, there will be enough pulling power for these trains. But my much heavier brass Sunset Limited is da different story.

The Soho brass cars of my Sunset Limited operate perfectly with their original wheels on my C-track and through my R3 curves. But in the beginning, when I hadn´t oiled them, the first 3 cars of the consist always tipped over in my curves (no classic derailing!) because the weight of the trailing 11 cars forced them to tip over. Only after extensively oiling all cars of my Sunset Limited, everything works out fine and the train rolls easier which makes it also a bit easier for my PA´s to pull it. Even if the Brawa E7A would be able to pull it by itself with its 3 powered axles and 4 traction tires, I would have a problem because of the 2 trailing E7B units because I know the heavy brass cars behind them would force them to tip over in the curves because they are too light. So powered E7B units would be THE solution. I´m very sure a Brawa E7A could pull my Sunset Limited if the 2 E7B´s were powered too. But unfortunately Brawa/Life Like doesn´t produce powered E7B units. Only Broadway Limited does that but this is not an option for me because first it would mean that I would need to convert these Broadway Limited E7B´s to AC and secondly I boycott Broadway Limited products anyway because they´re high-priced China shit. Also placing a Brawa/Life Like E7B shell on a powered Brawa E7A chassis will not work out because the A units are a little bit longer. So this is why I don´t see any chance of my Sunset Limited being pulled by a prototypically correct E7 A-B-B unit.

And last but not least: Unlike for most other US diesel fans, my most favorite all time diesels are the FM Eries! In my personal opinion they are the most beautiful ones. They´re my absolute favorites.
Proto has produced FM Erie A and B units. Both units are powered on all axles (no FM Erie dummies were produced).
That means having a SF FM Erie A-B-A unit, it would mean having a trio with 3 motors and 18 powered axles!!!
I always wanted to have that lone FM Erie A-B-A trio (90L-90A-90B) that SF had and that was produced by Proto.
I know that by converting them to AC, at least 2 powered axles would need to replaced by unpowered axles and the gears removed to make place for the sliding shoe. I thought to do that only on 1 of the 3 units and connect the units with connector cables, so that only 1 unit provides the current for all 3 and so that only 1 decoder and 1 sliding shoe is needed instead of 3 decoders and 3 sliding shoes. Do you think such a project would be realizable?
ASR-174.jpg
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#238 Posted : 04 July 2018 21:40:13(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,497
Location: Southwesternmost
Interesting niche and cool collection.

Originally Posted by: 610 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
How about using a lathe for cutting grooves into the running surface of wheels in order to equip them with traction tires? I had that done once for a Kato Alco RS with astonishing results.

Wow, I´m astonished you managed to do that! I had this idea in my head for years, but not for my diesels but for my steamers. But I don´t have the skills and tools to do something like this. I but I would love some of my engines to have traction tires because it really would increase their pulling power a lot!
....
If you would tell me that you could cut in grooves into the running surfaces of the wheels of these steamers that I mentioned, I would send them to you if that would be possible.


Sorry, but I did not do it myself, I had somebody else do it for me. What one would need is a lathe plus this tool:
https://www.fohrmann.com...uy-now-fohrmann.com.html
Offline jerdenberg  
#239 Posted : 04 July 2018 22:29:43(UTC)
jerdenberg

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/01/2005(UTC)
Posts: 949
Location: Den Helder, Noord-Holland
@610; a quick reply to a small part of your post:
Quote:
When I start the train, the motor sound of my PA´s starts a little bit before my PA´s start to move. Also when the train stops, the motor sound is still on for a little bit after my PA´s have already stopped. This is why I´m sure that they are operating at their limit, because they don´t react like this with any other train. I think it would have been better if Märklin built each PA with at least 3 powered axles instead of only 2, because I´m convinced that then my PA´s would not be operating at their limit when pulling my 14 car brass Sunset Limited. But anyway, I´m happy they do pull it at all, and these few moments where I hear the motor working before they move or after they stopped, is something I can live with.

What you describe is, as I understand it, Märklin's attempt to simulate reality, that is, the diesel engine revs up before the motion starts, and vice versa; I noticed it only today – and I like it.

With respect to pulling, the 104 cars of my test train my weigh something like 4–5 kilos together, but weight is important only on inclines and when accelerating/decelerating; wheel resistance (axle bearings and adhesion to rail) must be taken into account as well, and my test cars are all very light runners.

Jeroen
Figomima division, UP; mostly figment of my imagination yet.
Offline jvuye  
#240 Posted : 04 July 2018 22:43:24(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,669
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
Interesting niche and cool collection.

Originally Posted by: 610 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
How about using a lathe for cutting grooves into the running surface of wheels in order to equip them with traction tires? I had that done once for a Kato Alco RS with astonishing results.

Wow, I´m astonished you managed to do that! I had this idea in my head for years, but not for my diesels but for my steamers. But I don´t have the skills and tools to do something like this. I but I would love some of my engines to have traction tires because it really would increase their pulling power a lot!
....
If you would tell me that you could cut in grooves into the running surfaces of the wheels of these steamers that I mentioned, I would send them to you if that would be possible.


Sorry, but I did not do it myself, I had somebody else do it for me. What one would need is a lathe plus this tool:
https://www.fohrmann.com...uy-now-fohrmann.com.html


All good discussion, but it boils down to some simple answers

On a steamer, when the power from the motor is applied to one single driver axle (with the other drivers just connected/driven through the side rods..) , one should simply cut the grooves in that "motorized" drivers.

One precaution though: verify that that driver actually carries a (significant) part of the loco's weight !

If like on some Rivarossi locos, it's just pushed on the track by some springy contraption, any groove just won't cut it.

You just have to increase the spring pressure (but not as much as to unduly lift the other axles either!)

I only had that problem once (on a brass loco, about 20 years ago, with NMRA wheel profile) , so I fiddled a bit and cut the groove about 0.05 mm less than normal, which made the tyre protrude just a tiny bit (not visibly..)

That was enough to have that powered axle pick up a bigger part of the load, and the loco worked very well after the conversion.

But you are right, taking the driving axle(s) off a steam loco is often very delicate if you don't have the proper puller, and wheel press along with a quartering fixture for re-assembly

With my greatly/sadly reduced fingers dexterity and my old and painful hands, I can no longer perform that kind of precision work, but I'll gladly share all the "tricks" with anyone who wants to try it.

Cheers

Jacques

Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline 610  
#241 Posted : 05 July 2018 01:20:21(UTC)
610


Joined: 02/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
Interesting niche and cool collection.
Sorry, but I did not do it myself, I had somebody else do it for me. What one would need is a lathe plus this tool:
https://www.fohrmann.com...uy-now-fohrmann.com.html

Thank you! When it comes to America, I model SP, SF and RI because these 3 are my favorite roads. I´m actually very happy and lucky that Märklin has produced the SF F7 and SP PA-1 and that Brawa has produced the RI DL-107, because after the FM Eries, these 3 are my favorite american diesels. I´m also happy that Mehno produced that 4-8-2 in AC which was easy to modify into a RI 4-8-2 and that MTH has produced the SP 4-8-4 in AC. So most of my favorite american locomotives I could get without having to convert them to AC (except the SP 4-4-0, SP 2-10-2 and SP 4-10-2). I also model mexican trains (NdeM and UdelS). I repainted a Märklin BN F7 into a NdeM F7 and a MTH NH FA-1 into an UdelS FA-1 (I´m very happy that MTH did AC versions of their FA-1´s!). My last american locomotive wishes are a SP AC-9 2-8-8-4 and a SF 3000 Class 2-10-10-2. If these engines would be produced as AC versions, then my american collection would be finally complete.

May I know who did it for you? And how much you paid for it IF you had to pay at all?
That tool is nice, but with this you still need a wheel holding fixture like this
And still I probably wouldn´t like to try this out as a total inexperienced beginner you know...too risky of messing it up! And also I would not want to spend 80 € for tools just for a few wheels.

Since this is a PA-1 thread let me present my "shorther brother" of the PA-1, the FA-1 here:
This is my MTH NH FA-1 that I used because it´s paint scheme made it an easy candidate for repainting into a mexican UdelS FA-1.
DSCN0005.JPG
This is the finished result. I think I´m the only one who models such an UdelS locomotive, and of course the only one in AC too!
DSCN0966.JPG
And here is my only source: It´s the only photo that I have ever seen so far of an UdelS FA-1 in this particular 1968-1972 paint scheme, and I repainted my FA-1 just by looking at this pic.
Unidos del Sureste El Merdiano #51 Mexico D.F. - Merdia at Merida in December 1968A.jpg
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Offline 610  
#242 Posted : 05 July 2018 01:38:47(UTC)
610


Joined: 02/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by: jerdenberg Go to Quoted Post

What you describe is, as I understand it, Märklin's attempt to simulate reality, that is, the diesel engine revs up before the motion starts, and vice versa; I noticed it only today – and I like it.
With respect to pulling, the 104 cars of my test train my weigh something like 4–5 kilos together, but weight is important only on inclines and when accelerating/decelerating; wheel resistance (axle bearings and adhesion to rail) must be taken into account as well, and my test cars are all very light runners.

I think you misunderstood me a little bit. I don´t mean the engine sound that you can activate. I mean the sound of the motor that you can always hear when the motor is working and the locomotive is moving but not when the locomotive is standing. But when my SP PA´s have those 14 Sunset Limited brass cars coupled behind them, then this occurs: The motor starts working a little bit before the locos move and keeps on working a little bit after they have stopped. For me this is a sign that they´re really working very hard with that train.
And yes, wheel resistance must be taken into account as well. After I oile them, my Sunset Limited cars roll much easier than they did in the beginning, but still I would say that this is incomparable to Märklin/Trix freight cars which are MUCH lighter of course and therefore roll much easier. Also the quality of the axles may be a bit better than of those of my brass Sunset Limited cars, which are 70´s products by Soho.
Here is a pic of my Sunset Limited with my PA´s.
33436035_1552844731509634_2726980890642087936_n.jpg
And here for comparison a pic of the real deal.
SPPASSUNSETLTD.jpg
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Offline 610  
#243 Posted : 05 July 2018 02:26:24(UTC)
610


Joined: 02/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post

All good discussion, but it boils down to some simple answers

On a steamer, when the power from the motor is applied to one single driver axle (with the other drivers just connected/driven through the side rods..) , one should simply cut the grooves in that "motorized" drivers.

One precaution though: verify that that driver actually carries a (significant) part of the loco's weight !

If like on some Rivarossi locos, it's just pushed on the track by some springy contraption, any groove just won't cut it.

You just have to increase the spring pressure (but not as much as to unduly lift the other axles either!)

I only had that problem once (on a brass loco, about 20 years ago, with NMRA wheel profile) , so I fiddled a bit and cut the groove about 0.05 mm less than normal, which made the tyre protrude just a tiny bit (not visibly..)

That was enough to have that powered axle pick up a bigger part of the load, and the loco worked very well after the conversion.

But you are right, taking the driving axle(s) off a steam loco is often very delicate if you don't have the proper puller, and wheel press along with a quartering fixture for re-assembly

With my greatly/sadly reduced fingers dexterity and my old and painful hands, I can no longer perform that kind of precision work, but I'll gladly share all the "tricks" with anyone who wants to try it.

Cheers

Jacques

Yes, on all my american steamers the power from the motor is applied to only one single driver axle, while the other drivers are driven only via the rods. I never liked that to be honest and I wished they would be driven like my Märklin steam locos (all drivers by gear wheels).
Yes, it´s exactly like you wrote: It only makes sense to install traction tires to the directly powered ("motorized") driver.
On these steamers that I would like to equip with traction tires, there is a heavy boiler weight installed inside the boiler above the drivers. My RI 4-8-2, SP 2-10-2 and SP 4-10-2 all have their powered driver axle positioned below that weight. So it would make sense of course to install traction tires on that powered driver.
In case of the 4-10-2 for example, the boiler weight is positioned from the 1st driver to the 4th driver. The 5th driver (or rear driver) does not have the boiler weight placed above it anymore. So although it would be easy to take off the rear driver for traction tire installation, it would make no sense to install the traction tires there because there is too little weight on that driver. So if you really wanna do that, you are forced to do it via the complicated way and take off the center driver (indeed very delicate like you wrote!). It´s something that I really would not dare to do. Especially not on my brass 4-10-2 because it´s my most favorite engine, and in case you damage some parts, there are no replacement parts for it (it´s a handmade japanese brass model from 1962!).
What I also realized: On my Mehano SP 2-10-2, I could not install traction tires on the center driver even if I wanted to, because the center driver is blind/flangeless! That´s a very stupid move of Mehano anyway, because that blind/flangeless center driver is the directly powered one by the motor! And since it is raised a little bit, it doesn´t even touch the rails! So you have here an engine whose directly motor driven center driver doesn´t even touch the rails! A total waste of power!!! So on my Mehano SP 2-10-2, I could only install traction tires on the 4th or 5th drivers, but that would not help very much (although they touch the trails of course) because they´re only driven by the rods.
My Mehano RI 4-8-2 and my brass Max Gray SP 4-10-2 don´t have any blind/flangeless drivers (thanks God!). But when watching closely, I discovered that their motor driven axles (2nd driver on the 4-8-2 and 3rd/center driver on the 4-10-2) also do not touch the rails! It´s not as visible as on the blind/flangeless center driver of my 2-10-2, but you can still see that that there is maybe one fourth of a milimeter of free space left between the running surface of these wheels and the rails. Although for my 4-10-2 I´m not totally sure yet because I haven´t installed the boiler weight yet, so it´s center driver might touch the rails once the boiler wieght is installed.
So if I understood you correctly, the solution here would be to cut the groove less than normal so that the traction tire protrudes a little bit from the running surface of the wheel and therefore touches the rails, right?
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#244 Posted : 05 July 2018 12:43:40(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,497
Location: Southwesternmost
In this context.
Sunset_Limited_diesels.jpg
Offline jvuye  
#245 Posted : 05 July 2018 16:54:24(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,669
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: 610 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post

All good discussion, but it boils down to some simple answers

On a steamer, when the power from the motor is applied to one single driver axle (with the other drivers just connected/driven through the side rods..) , one should simply cut the grooves in that "motorized" drivers.

One precaution though: verify that that driver actually carries a (significant) part of the loco's weight !

If like on some Rivarossi locos, it's just pushed on the track by some springy contraption, any groove just won't cut it.

You just have to increase the spring pressure (but not as much as to unduly lift the other axles either!)

I only had that problem once (on a brass loco, about 20 years ago, with NMRA wheel profile) , so I fiddled a bit and cut the groove about 0.05 mm less than normal, which made the tyre protrude just a tiny bit (not visibly..)

That was enough to have that powered axle pick up a bigger part of the load, and the loco worked very well after the conversion.

But you are right, taking the driving axle(s) off a steam loco is often very delicate if you don't have the proper puller, and wheel press along with a quartering fixture for re-assembly

With my greatly/sadly reduced fingers dexterity and my old and painful hands, I can no longer perform that kind of precision work, but I'll gladly share all the "tricks" with anyone who wants to try it.

Cheers

Jacques

Yes, on all my american steamers the power from the motor is applied to only one single driver axle,...
...
So if I understood you correctly, the solution here would be to cut the groove less than normal so that the traction tire protrudes a little bit from the running surface of the wheel and therefore touches the rails, right?


Yes.
Simple

Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline 610  
#246 Posted : 05 July 2018 21:12:20(UTC)
610


Joined: 02/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post

Yes.
Simple


Just a few last questions about this topic:
1. How deep would you usually cut the groove?
2. How wide should the groove be?
3. How deep should the groove approximately be when you want the traction tire to protrude a little bit?
4. What type of tration tires would you use and how thick are these traction tires?
Offline jvuye  
#247 Posted : 05 July 2018 23:17:33(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,669
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: 610 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post

Yes.
Simple


Just a few last questions about this topic:
1. How deep would you usually cut the groove?
2. How wide should the groove be?
3. How deep should the groove approximately be when you want the traction tire to protrude a little bit?
4. What type of tration tires would you use and how thick are these traction tires?


1) depends on the diameter of the wheel in relation to the corresponding Märklin tire (see n°4) , but the nominal value is 0.5 mm (as per Märklin spec)

2) 1.2 to 1.3 mm, not very critical as long as the tire fits entirely in its width (tire manufacturing tolerance is not very accurate anyway)
When I cut, I start with the grooving tool just at the base of the inside of the flange and do my first cut (usually 0.3mm) , then I widen it to 1.3 mm (The Fohrmann tool is 1.0 mm )
measure accurately now so you can calculate the depth of the second pass. Somewhat different for the "protruding" case . See below.

3) depends on the outer diameter , and what the tire's thickness end up to be after you mount it on it.
The trick is to cut the groove a bit shallow as a first pass, say 0.35 mm, then fit a tire on the wheel while still mounted on the lathe and measure.
Calculate the difference and do a second pass with the grooving tool. Mount a new tire, you should be right on (discard the one you used for the first trial as it probably has been stretched beyond use when you removed it to do the second pass)

4) I use Märklin ones, best quality and predictable. I select the one whose original diameter is just a bit smaller than the wheel.
It will of course stretch when mounted (it has to!) , so the final thickness will vary a bit , but not to the point of being critical **except** in the case where you want an accurate 0.05 mm protrusion!! Wink

And you can't even think of doing any of this without the mounting jig from Fohrmann.
And check that the mounted wheel run **perfectly** true with a dial gauge

Getting yourself a training and run several trials on a couple of throw away drivers is a good exercise (and fun) too. Wink

Hope this helps

Jacques
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline dickinsonj  
#248 Posted : 06 July 2018 01:30:35(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,142
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: 610 Go to Quoted Post

Yes, on all my american steamers the power from the motor is applied to only one single driver axle, while the other drivers are driven only via the rods. I never liked that to be honest and I wished they would be driven like my Märklin steam locos (all drivers by gear wheels).


Well Märklin drivers were all gear driven a very long time ago. Nothing that I have gotten from them in a number of years has had more than one gear driven axle. They now motor drive just one axle and let the rods drive the others, as is common practice.

Now originally I was disappointed in this and did not like this loss of quality, but over time my thinking has evolved. I have a fair number of older steamers from Märklin with gear driven axles and I can compare their performance with the newer rod driven models. I don't see much loss if any from giving up the gear drive and there is definitely less friction.

All of the axles are indeed driven in the newer locos by the rods, just like they are in the prototype. I have yet to see this result in a significant loss of traction and I consider all of the drivers powered, not just the ones geared to the motor. When I say my Big Boy has 8 driven axles and 16 driven wheels, only 2 axles and 4 wheels are gear driven. It might suffer some in traction due to that, but sometimes I think that loco could pull my truck. BigGrin
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#249 Posted : 14 November 2018 18:40:06(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,497
Location: Southwesternmost
A Stummiforum member (who used to be active in the MU forum, too) presented a homemade Alco PA extendion cord solution for inserting a dummy B-unit between between two motorised Alco PAs.

See lower half of post #201:

https://www.stummiforum....p?t=109585&start=200
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#250 Posted : 01 May 2019 13:29:02(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,497
Location: Southwesternmost
D&H Alco PA enters the scene at 0:44.
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