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Offline river6109  
#1 Posted : 09 January 2011 05:37:29(UTC)

Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,646
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
The days when we grew up without being spoiled and to day everything has to be perfect (assuming).

What is happening to the days locos didn't have the correct length and the Pantographs came from a gene factory, they all looked the same.

We accepted these irregularities without the slightest remark or didn't know they existed in the first place.

today we are critically, the train is too long, it hasn't got the right carriages attached, the signals are wrongly placed, the ballast is to coarse, the headlights are too yellow, no lights in the tender, plastic side rods, no smoke generator and the list goes on.

Have we grown up to be critically or have we grown up to extract fantasy from reality or is it just a dream from the past, we've never been able to get rid off.

The trauma we went through having a haircut, trying on new shoes, shirts etc. etc., all hell broke loose, we've received our train set present for Christmas, the little steamer without headlights, simple side rods, see through drivers cab, no windows and yet it was all smiles all around, no tears, no differences in opinions.

The pictures below show, some of the pantographs have been changed to prototypical ones, some have both old and new and some have the original "same gene" panto.










5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline nevw  
#2 Posted : 09 January 2011 06:04:28(UTC)

Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,058
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
Maybe I am a bit Different. OK Some will definately say yes to that.

Only coming into Model/toy trains some 5 and a bit years ago and have a collection of Mainly German and Swiss rollng Stock and I have never known the exact ins and outs of each Loco I cannot tell how correct it is. If it looks good and runs good it is good. I would not know how different it is from the real thing and I do not care.

thats my 2 bobs worth (2 cents but with inflation)

wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
Offline river6109  
#3 Posted : 09 January 2011 06:48:59(UTC)

Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,646
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square

I may have been misunderstood, I wasn't talking about the proto type of a loco nor the prototype of a pantograph, merely the changes that took place over the years of improving models and their appearances and as you've mentioned in another topic, how one can update locos from analog to digital and the same mental tolerance was allowed for a loco to struggle uphill and race down hill.

At the same time I thought I share and invite other members to be able to open up with their past experiences and see how they feel about, how ones attitude has changed over the years and consequently updated their locos in due course.

It wasn't about, I don't care, it was about the real thing in our eyes when we received or bought locos with inferior or non prototypical features such as length and what we search for today. as the heading indicates: spoiled or not spoiled, for improved features, not so much of being different, more to do with tolerance and for everyone it is in the eye of the beholder.

I personally think, we've gone beyond the stage of don't care attitude, regarding clearing fields, clearing forests, polluting our waterways by just adding an assumption of it looks good , feels good and runs good,

We are coming up with better solutions to manage or confront issues or topics and mine was to improve the pantos these locos had before.
As you've mentioned, I wouldn't know whether or not they are prototypical for this particular era but it looks better than the previous one.
Another aspect of enhancing your models, is to show other members, there are more ways than one (analog to digital) to improve your loco stock.

Not quite the same, I've installed electrical couplings on most of my passenger carriages (far from prototypical) but logic tells me having 13 pickup shoes doesn't sound right and another change I've made gone from bulbs to Led's, which gives me enough interior lights for at least six carriages, coming from a single loco decoder.

That's my 2 bob + GST

5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline kariosls37  
#4 Posted : 09 January 2011 09:11:30(UTC)

New Zealand   
Joined: 02/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,067
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
I think that we are very lucky with the amount of details we have on our rolling stock, while still being able to run on terribly tight curves. While I won't retire my old locos, I have preference for the new steamers, especially with finely detailed valvegear.

Offline Oscar  
#5 Posted : 09 January 2011 09:44:22(UTC)

Joined: 25/11/2003(UTC)
Posts: 783
Location: ,
Hmmm, interesting topic! Some thoughts.

Fist, the word "spoiled" brings to mind a person who does not appreciate what he's got. Most model train entousiasts probably DO appreciate what they've got. I'd say people are becoming more critical and they demand more value for their hard-earned money. Nothing wrong with that, I think.

Second, define "progress". Yesterday I put a little '60s loco on the layout that literally had not been out of the box for decades. A little drop of oil here and there, and within minutes it was on its merry way, smooth and strong, as if it had been bought new yesterday. In terms of detail and being a completely accurate miniature of the real thing, by today's standards it is a failure. On the other hand, of the 8 new, digital, it-can-do-everything-but-walk-the-dog models that I've bought since 2008, 3 were faulty and had to be repaired or replaced. But they sure were fantastically detailed. So, what is "progress".....?

To me, it seems like the new ones are awesome to look at but you're lucky if it functions as promised and if it KEEPS functioning as promised (I don't see myself replacing the motor in my new BR23 steamer, but I can fix ANYTHING with the old models, with minimal cost, time and fuss). And with the old ones, they're not a true representation of the real thing but they always work, decade after decade.

So, it would seem that you have a choice between "simple but reliable" or "complex but fickle". However, and I may be the only one who feels like this, the old stuff has another redeeming quality that the new stuff has not: charm. The old "Tischbahn" approach to model railroading in the '50s and '60s presented a fairy-tale reality, not actual reality, but to this day when people see an old Märklin Tischbahn complete with tinplate models, signals, metal station buildings, etc, they melt. And I think it has to do with the possibility that those old models present a world that people might long for, and the fact that it does NOT look like the real world may be the key factor in that. At least, that's how it works for me.

As a collector, for many years I focused on the old stuff, the Tischbahn era. Only a few years back, when I saw beautiful models appearing in the catalogue again, did I start buying newer models. I love them both for different reasons, but if I had to choose then I'd choose the old ones.

Will the current line of models wow people 30 years from now? I doubt it. Will a 3015 wow people 30 years from now? I'm sure of it.

Märklin is capitalizing on this by offering replicas of old models, complete with period-correct packaging (Le Capitole, V200, E03). Smart move.

So, to close off, back to "spoiled". I think collectors are spoiled by definition. I mean, if you have enough time and money to spend both on things like stamps, paintings, old cars or model trains, and if you're worrying about minor roof details of a H0 loco while the vast majority of the world is only worrying about life's basic needs of food, shelter and security, then, yes, we're all spoiled. At the same time, I try to be very grateful for what I've got.
Offline TimR  
#6 Posted : 09 January 2011 13:02:38(UTC)

Joined: 16/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Jakarta
My view:

First, Internet has allowed unprecedented level of wealth in information sharing.
The average MRR customers benefited not only from being able to make critical comparison themselves between the model pictures and actual prototype,
they also benefited from critical views/experience/observation of more astute fellow customer in many of aspect of the model. Add the advances in high definition camera technology, and all those bad paint spots can suddenly be magnified 100x times; and distributed across the world.

Gone were the days when MRR is really about lonesome family experience in the attic...
Nowadays the experience is throughly global.
(Marklin) Models are criticized on a global basis rather than by just a few reviewers in (German) MRR magazines that most customers probably wouldn't even bother to try and buy or read.

Add to the factor that the traditional dealers in a sense are declining in numbers across the world - meaning that customers are increasingly looking into buying MRR products online rather than scrolling the yellow pages to mind the closest physical stores.

Then there is competition, and the internal drive with each manufacturer to continually raise the bar with every new generation of models. With information freely traded as above, it became fairly easy too for customers to jump ship.

In terms of detail, notice the evolutionary steps of Marklin models in this order: 3048, 3084, 3610, 3311, 39010, and 39390.
Each of these models are representative of each generation of steamers that Marklin produce since 1960s.

Fair to say that those newer customers who bought a 39010 as their first steamer will not be as forgiving as those who started with model 3048.

Either way, with all things, the trend over the past few decades is towards models with increasingly demanding level of sophistication, detail, and refinement.
Then, each product line up, even MRR items, has its life cycle cost - even if in MRR it works out quite a bit longer than the average electronic white goods.

Who knows?
Maybe in just another 10 years, even the 39010 or 39390 will not even be considered to have an acceptable level of details in comparison to the-then-latest model....
Now collecting C-Sine models.
Offline kurtjr  
#7 Posted : 09 January 2011 15:35:06(UTC)

Joined: 22/01/2007(UTC)
Posts: 55
My local dealer told me customers by being so critical, such as window sizes and car lengths (among other things...), are making this hobby unaffordable for the young generation as products become more expensive to manufacture.

Of course his business has certainly declined over the year with competition from internet dealers who have cheaper prices, but he still offers that little extra service like giving you a coffee and/or christmas cookies while you visit his shop and chat. Isn't this what are hobby is about? Sharing and enjoying moments with Model trains?

i enjoy all my trains when they run as each one is special in his own way regardless if the engine or carriage is not quite like its original. I still have an RSM 800 doing shunting work next to modern diesels and e-loks and it doesn't bother me one bit if its prototypical with reality or not. I define the limits of my model world.


All SBB's, SNCF and US/CDN model's.
Offline petestra  
#8 Posted : 09 January 2011 16:46:25(UTC)

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,728
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
Yes Kurtjr, you are right. That is why starter sets and the hobby lines should be as inexpensive as possible and have a nice variety too. Younger people need to feel that this hobby is not out of reach or they will look to other hobbies. I don't know how and if Maerklin advertises these days in Germany but they should now that they are making money again and advertise overseas too. They need to promote, as we do on this forum, how great our hobby is with all its different facets.
Offline hxmiesa  
#9 Posted : 10 January 2011 10:54:53(UTC)

Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,264
Location: Spain
The way Oscar as puts it, greatly represent my view also.
I grew up with the Märklin products from the 70-80, and that has formed my level of detail and acceptance of a model.
I think the newer models are incredible detailed, but also far too fragile and erratic (quality-wise). Older stuff (60´ies and before) looks too old, although I do apreciate the vintage charm tehy have)
Key point being the service-part; I can fix most things on the older analog locos, in order to keep them runing.

I can of course accept that other people may have other standards for what is acceptable. It´s good that they have the time and knowledge to keep themselves updated about these things. I know I couldnt... Not for that would I call them spolied.
But I certainly DONT think that people demanding more accuracy makes the hobby more expensive for all of us. Offer and demand does not work like that! It´s simply that before, electrical trains were considered a standard toy for a child, whereas today there isnt much demand for it come boxingday. Offer and demand!

Thanks to internet everybody has easy access to information. Even the ones of us who didnt know better, or couldnt be bothered to find out, KNOW much more about the prototypes than ever before. OF COURSE we would choose the best model of a given prototype, when given a choice. -And I dont think it is more expensive to produce a model with the right painting and lettering than with the wrong one; If the model is painted and printed, AND the information is easily obtainable, I see no reason why the product should not be as accurate as possible.
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
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