CS2 60214 Synching database and S88 feedback Share  Email this topic  LinkBack Topic URL  Retweet this Topic  Share Topic on Google+  Like this Topic  Share on Facebook  Digg this Topic  Reddit this Topic  Share on Tumblr Options  Watch this topic  Print this topic View » Normal Threaded

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GSRR		#1 Posted : 05 October 2010 17:40:59(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC) Posts: 1,339 Location: USA		I am interested in using the CS2 both as a standalone unit and with PC control software. Some of the reading I have done points to two possible items of interest. 1. Unlike the ECoS and CS1, the CS2 will not/cannot sync it's database with PC software? 2. The feedback on the CS2 is slow or poor due to it's feedback polling? 3. What if any role does the GFP Track Format Processor play in Q.1 and Q.2? Would appreciate if anyone could shed some light on this, and if there is a possible fix in the works? (I am aware of the LDT HSI-88 serial/USB) r/Thomas edit: To add some clarity to my questions. I have searched the internet using English terms, which has brought minimal result. As I am not conversant in either German or Dutch I cannot avail myself of the other language forums or searches. Edited by user 06 October 2010 07:07:16(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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Fredrik		#2 Posted : 05 October 2010 19:54:26(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 13/07/2004(UTC) Posts: 642		Hi there 1 - WRONG! It is possible...! 2 - True. 3 - It produces the digital signal on the track(s). There is also (in addition to the HSI-88) a similar CAN-module "PC-Snitt" (using the CAN-bus instead) on which, unlike the S88-bus, the modules must not be inserted in a serial row. And it can contain up to 99 detector modules (TrackReporters each with 16 inputs). This "PC-Snitt"-interface has a USB-connection for the computer. The TrackReporters can also be inserted directly in the CAN-bus of the CS2 - and they will automatically send any state-changes over the CAN-bus which (in contradiction to the S88-bus) is automatically sent to a connected computer (works on 1.3.0(1)), where it can be proccessed if the software has it implemented. It does work, but not recommended from the manufacturer, and if used: OPTO-insulation of the inputs must be used!!!
		Fredrik. *ECoS 2 + ECoSDetector + SwitchPilot + ECoSTerminal; *Z21 + Loconet + Digikeijs + MGP; **CS3+ + CdB (** coming soon...) WWW: MJ-fjärren
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dntower85		#3 Posted : 05 October 2010 23:57:18(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/01/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,218 Location: Shady Shores, TX - USA		2. The feedback on the CS2 is slow or poor due to it's feedback polling? 2 - True. 2A feedback on the CS2 - How does it compare to the 6021 with the 6051 interface... Faster or Slower?
		DT Now powered by ECoS II unit#2, RocRail era - some time in the future when the space time continuum is disrupted and ICE 3 Trains run on the same rails as the Adler and BR18's.
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Fredrik		#4 Posted : 06 October 2010 00:20:09(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 13/07/2004(UTC) Posts: 642		I haven't done any actual timing but: In both cases (6051 interface and 60213/4) one (the computer) has to ask for the information. This is what I consider "slow" - "fast" would be the central to send the data automatically (and preferrably only new/changed data like CS1/ECoS). But physically I would expect the 60213/4 (ethernet-) connection to be faster than the 2400 bps connection of the 6051 interface. But I do not know.
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GSRR		#5 Posted : 06 October 2010 07:16:08(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC) Posts: 1,339 Location: USA		Fredrik wrote: Hi there 1 - WRONG! It is possible...! 2 - True. 3 - It produces the digital signal on the track(s). There is also (in addition to the HSI-88) a similar CAN-module "PC-Snitt" (using the CAN-bus instead) on which, unlike the S88-bus, the modules must not be inserted in a serial row. And it can contain up to 99 detector modules (TrackReporters each with 16 inputs). This "PC-Snitt"-interface has a USB-connection for the computer. The TrackReporters can also be inserted directly in the CAN-bus of the CS2 - and they will automatically send any state-changes over the CAN-bus which (in contradiction to the S88-bus) is automatically sent to a connected computer (works on 1.3.0(1)), where it can be proccessed if the software has it implemented. It does work, but not recommended from the manufacturer, and if used: OPTO-insulation of the inputs must be used!!! ... Fredrik, Q.1 Could you please provide a specific example of PC software that will sync the database with the CS2. Brand name? Q.2 I am aware of the workaround for the slow feedback polling using an interface or Schnittstelle. What I am looking for is the specific reason for this slow polling. Is it the CAN-bus, the CS2 software, etc? And is there any intent to "fix" this? ...
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GSRR		#6 Posted : 06 October 2010 07:25:03(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC) Posts: 1,339 Location: USA		Just by reading the description posted by Steamer01 / Riekus in the Digital » CS2 60214 Known issues thread post #26 and #36 it seems to me that this is a feedback polling issue perhaps, or not? r/Thomas
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Fredrik		#7 Posted : 06 October 2010 11:25:45(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 13/07/2004(UTC) Posts: 642		Hi again, Q1: My software CAMR (previously RailNet) does this (see link in signature). It can import both engine- and accessory-data from the CS2. Due to an upcoming relocation it is currently not available for download for the public (as I right now am unable to work on it as my layout has been "dismantled" and will be rebuilt - there will be a story about this on my web-site when started...). CAMR is written for CS2, with adaptions for other systems... Q2: It is the CS2 software that do not pushhe feedback information autmatically to the computer. It has nothing to do with the CAN-bus.
		Fredrik. *ECoS 2 + ECoSDetector + SwitchPilot + ECoSTerminal; *Z21 + Loconet + Digikeijs + MGP; **CS3+ + CdB (** coming soon...) WWW: MJ-fjärren
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GSRR		#8 Posted : 06 October 2010 16:20:03(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC) Posts: 1,339 Location: USA		Fredrik wrote: Hi again, Q1: My software CAMR (previously RailNet) does this (see link in signature). It can import both engine- and accessory-data from the CS2. Due to an upcoming relocation it is currently not available for download for the public (as I right now am unable to work on it as my layout has been "dismantled" and will be rebuilt - there will be a story about this on my web-site when started...). CAMR is written for CS2, with adaptions for other systems... Q2: It is the CS2 software that do not pushhe feedback information autmatically to the computer. It has nothing to do with the CAN-bus. .. Fredrik, Thanks for the info. Q.1 To sync with the CS2 database for the Loks and accessories does CAMR go through the Ethernet connection, or do you have to make a USB backup from the CS2 and then import to the PC? Q.2 So the slowness of S88 feedback is due to the current state of the CS2 software protocol which does not yet support an event driven system regarding the S88 feedback or track occupancy? Is there any indication on the forums that Marklin recognizes this and a fix is coming? r/Thomas
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Fredrik		#9 Posted : 06 October 2010 22:05:22(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 13/07/2004(UTC) Posts: 642		Hi, Q1: It uses the Ethernet connection. Q2: Yes! If Märklin will release a event-driven version I don't know - but I hope they will.
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fvri		#10 Posted : 07 October 2010 17:12:43(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 07/10/2002(UTC) Posts: 773 Location: Zwevezele,		Indeed remarkable anno 2010 M is still using a polling instead of an event driving model for track occupancy. Luckily I bought an ECOS 1. If that one breaks down I can rely on my M6021/6051 robust duo :). Frank
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GSRR		#11 Posted : 07 October 2010 17:17:48(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC) Posts: 1,339 Location: USA		Fredrik wrote: Hi, Q1: It uses the Ethernet connection. Q2: Yes! If Märklin will release a event-driven version I don't know - but I hope they will. .. Thanks Fredrik. r/Thomas
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GSRR		#12 Posted : 07 October 2010 17:19:41(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC) Posts: 1,339 Location: USA		fvri wrote: Indeed remarkable anno 2010 M is still using a polling instead of an event driving model for track occupancy. Luckily I bought an ECOS 1. If that one breaks down I can rely on my M6021/6051 robust duo :). Frank .. Hello Frank. Can you give some background about the difference between "event driven" and "polling"? r/Thomas
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fvri		#13 Posted : 07 October 2010 18:05:44(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 07/10/2002(UTC) Posts: 773 Location: Zwevezele,		Hi Thomas, By polling is meant: the system needs to readout frequently the state of the S88. With an event driven system each time a state changes in the S88 an event is published by the control system(CS1 or ECoS1/2). A big disadvantage of polling is that states can be missed, thus if the time for polling is bigger than the time between 2 states have changed you will miss one. When occupancy detection is based on contact rails this is usually not a problem. Thus for a control software progam it is more reliable to have an event driven system, every state change can be trapped with ease. I hope this make it more clear to you. Best regards, Frank
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GSRR		#14 Posted : 07 October 2010 18:23:53(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC) Posts: 1,339 Location: USA		fvri wrote: Hi Thomas, By polling is meant: the system needs to readout frequently the state of the S88. With an event driven system each time a state changes in the S88 an event is published by the control system(CS1 or ECoS1/2). A big disadvantage of polling is that states can be missed, thus if the time for polling is bigger than the time between 2 states have changed you will miss one. When occupancy detection is based on contact rails this is usually not a problem. Thus for a control software progam it is more reliable to have an event driven system, every state change can be trapped with ease. I hope this make it more clear to you. Best regards, Frank .. So with an event driven system a change in the s88 "an event is published by the CS1 or ECoS" Would this be correct? With an event driven system the s88 sends the feedback to the CS1 without being interrogated or polled, with a polling system the trigger can only be recognized and acted upon with the next interrogation or polling cycle from the CS2? r/Thomas .
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Fredrik		#15 Posted : 07 October 2010 18:34:04(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 13/07/2004(UTC) Posts: 642		No - not quite! With the event-driven system of CS1/ECoS the CS1/ECoS sends the feedback to the computer once a change is detected. The CS1/ECoS "constantly" polls the S88-bus (no idea at what "rate"). This is why I myself use the CAN-system (with it's own interface) - it is truly event-driven: Once the decoder (TrackReporter) detects a change on one of its inputs - the data is immidiately sent on the CAN-bus. Intercepted by the interface it's is directly sent to a connected computer! Much better!!! Added: The S88 never sends anything - it can only be polled!
		Fredrik. *ECoS 2 + ECoSDetector + SwitchPilot + ECoSTerminal; *Z21 + Loconet + Digikeijs + MGP; **CS3+ + CdB (** coming soon...) WWW: MJ-fjärren
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dntower85		#16 Posted : 07 October 2010 19:13:21(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/01/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,218 Location: Shady Shores, TX - USA		Fredrik wrote: No - not quite! Added: The S88 never sends anything - it can only be polled! So even the Ecos and CS1 are polling the s88? and they are just sending the event as soon as they see a change occurring. This would be ok if the system is polling the s88's so fast that it doesn't miss anything and if the s88 is on a separate buss and it can continually poll so it doesn't poll then send commands before it polls again.
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Fredrik		#17 Posted : 07 October 2010 19:16:30(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 13/07/2004(UTC) Posts: 642		Correct! That is exactly how it works.
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fvri		#18 Posted : 07 October 2010 19:22:39(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 07/10/2002(UTC) Posts: 773 Location: Zwevezele,		Frederik, indeed you are correct, but I didn't stated that the S88 has intelligence to implement an event driven system it is located in the controller(CS1,....). Frank
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Fredrik		#19 Posted : 07 October 2010 20:25:02(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 13/07/2004(UTC) Posts: 642		Hi Frank, I know you know hos it works! My reply was not written as a response to yours - only as a reply to the posting above it.
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fvri		#20 Posted : 07 October 2010 23:21:13(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 07/10/2002(UTC) Posts: 773 Location: Zwevezele,		Hi Fredrik, No hard feelings :). Sorry I'm always writing your name wrong, probably because in Belgium it is usally written like this : Frederik. Best regards, Frank
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Bigdaddynz		#21 Posted : 08 October 2010 02:48:45(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,663 Location: New Zealand		GSRR wrote: 1. Unlike the ECoS and CS1, the CS2 will not/cannot sync it's database with PC software? Thomas, the CS2 can read the loco and solenoid databases on a CS1, so I should imagine it can synch with PC based software.
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GSRR		#22 Posted : 11 October 2010 19:30:44(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC) Posts: 1,339 Location: USA		fvri wrote: Frederik, indeed you are correct, but I didn't stated that the S88 has intelligence to implement an event driven system it is located in the controller(CS1,....). Frank Frank and Fredrik, I understand the function of the s88, I got turned around a bit. Thank you both for providing some input to my questions. r/Thomas http://users.telenet.be/loccommander/ http://www.camr.se/
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Danlake		#23 Posted : 18 September 2012 08:25:55(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC) Posts: 1,571		Originally Posted by: GSRR Fredrik wrote: Hi again, Thanks for the info. Q.1 To sync with the CS2 database for the Loks and accessories does CAMR go through the Ethernet connection, or do you have to make a USB backup from the CS2 and then import to the PC? Q.2 So the slowness of S88 feedback is due to the current state of the CS2 software protocol which does not yet support an event driven system regarding the S88 feedback or track occupancy? Is there any indication on the forums that Marklin recognizes this and a fix is coming? r/Thomas Has the issue in Q2 above been solved by Marklin in software upgrades or is it still using a polling response rather than event driven for the S88 modules? Reason I ask is if I should use the LDT-HI-USB option rather than using the CS2 to report state to my PC controlled layout? I will only have about 5 S88 modules mainly hooked up to contact tracks. Thanks in advance! Brgds - Lasse
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Fredrik		#24 Posted : 18 September 2012 17:44:18(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 13/07/2004(UTC) Posts: 642		Originally Posted by: Danlake Originally Posted by: GSRR Fredrik wrote: Hi again, Thanks for the info. Q.1 To sync with the CS2 database for the Loks and accessories does CAMR go through the Ethernet connection, or do you have to make a USB backup from the CS2 and then import to the PC? Q.2 So the slowness of S88 feedback is due to the current state of the CS2 software protocol which does not yet support an event driven system regarding the S88 feedback or track occupancy? Is there any indication on the forums that Marklin recognizes this and a fix is coming? r/Thomas Has the issue in Q2 above been solved by Marklin in software upgrades or is it still using a polling response rather than event driven for the S88 modules? Reason I ask is if I should use the LDT-HI-USB option rather than using the CS2 to report state to my PC controlled layout? I will only have about 5 S88 modules mainly hooked up to contact tracks. Thanks in advance! Brgds - Lasse Yes - the CS2 is now automatically sending out changes to listening devices on the ethernet-connection. Although still internally polling the S88-bus. However the software must no more ask for changes.
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betania		#25 Posted : 16 April 2013 21:00:26(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 9 Location: Sweden		Hello! It seems that Märklin vers. 3.0.1 (1) works with S88 and Train Controller vers. 8.0 B1 KOS
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