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Offline perz  
#1 Posted : 11 September 2004 02:21:52(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
Lars W. invited to the opening of a thread about Uhlenbrock Lissy. I think it is an interesting topic.

If I understand it right, the Lissy system consists of mainly two things:

1. The hardware: An IR transmitter/IR detector based feedback system.

2. The software to handle the information gathered by the IR feedback system.

The software here runs on the IB itself (and maybe to some extent in the IR decoder HW), and not on a host PC.

I have built an IR transmitter/IR detector system myself. The hardware solution is very similar to Lissy. My system was designed, and described on my web page, long before Lissy was announced (maybe Uhlenbrock looked there ?). But I haven't had time to develop any useful software for it yet.

My theory is that the Lissy IR detector/decoder HW is rather simple and that the real intelligence is in the IB. If that's the case it might be possible to build low cost DIY replacements for the Lissy HW, we just have to know how it sends the data to the IB.

Also I think it would be very interesting to get some information about which reliability Lissy will reach in practice. During the development of my system, I went through the stages "useless"=>"OK"=>"very reliable"=>"extremely reliable". Uhlenbrock certainly have skilled engineers so they should be able to reach the "extremely reliable" level too. But it all depends on what targets they have set and how they trade off between quality and development cost/time to market.

Offline Lars Westerlind  
#2 Posted : 11 September 2004 10:41:29(UTC)
Lars Westerlind


Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC)
Posts: 2,379
Location: Lindome, Sweden
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by perz
<br />Lars W. invited to the opening of a thread about Uhlenbrock Lissy. I think it is an interesting topic.

If I understand it right, the Lissy system consists of mainly two things:

1. The hardware: An IR transmitter/IR detector based feedback system.

2. The software to handle the information gathered by the IR feedback system.

The software here runs on the IB itself (and maybe to some extent in the IR decoder HW), and not on a host PC.

...

My theory is that the Lissy IR detector/decoder HW is rather simple and that the real intelligence is in the IB. If that's the case it might be possible to build low cost DIY replacements for the Lissy HW, we just have to know how it sends the data to the IB.

...


Near, but not exactly. Lissy is a LocoNet component, with most if the logics in the receiver module. The receiver is placed near the track, and has two IR sensors, either placed in pairs to detect direction and speed, or separately. The receiver module i configured (programmed) through LocoNet, and when this is done, it's rather independent of the CU. It may for example be moved to another LocoNet system (Digitrax, Daisy system, or LocoNet adapter to a 6021). Obviously it sends normal LocoNet commands to the CU, which transforms these to loco and accessory commands in the correct protocol.

Some of it's functions (hidden yard) requires the ability to handle series of accessory commands (forgot the english word right now), which requires either an Intellibox with that option, of an IB-switch. Configuring requires Intellibox or IB-control; I guess also Digitrax can handle that. The Intellibox should have software 1.3 or higher, but contains no specifific knowledge of Lissy.

Beside sending commands (and LocoNet's s88 equivalents), on LocoNet, Lissy may also send just info about recognized loco and category, and with pair mounted sensors, speed and directio. The format of this is may be choosen; either 'Uhlenbrock' or Digitrax. It's intended for use by computer software, so I would be surprised if the details of this formats, or how it is accessed by the interfaced will be revealed. That's not part of my interest however.

One thing I really like is this distributed logics. Each Lissy receiver has a distinct task, for example, monitoring a block section or a road crossing, or a small station and performing operations on any or specific trains identified at that place. And the modular struture due to LocoNet is also very much to my liking.

Reliability is not known; I have my first Lissy set on order.

/Lars
Offline digilox1  
#3 Posted : 11 September 2004 12:38:42(UTC)
digilox1


Joined: 28/05/2003(UTC)
Posts: 719
Location: ,
Lars,
AFAIK, Lissy/Fleischmann Train Navigation needs a software 1.5/x.x release or higher of the IB/Twin Center.
This is because of the LocoNet-address programming feature that`s required in order to program transmitter addresses.
Digitrax currently does not offer this feature so, an IB is indispensable even for Digitrax "SuperChief"-users.

Regards,
Manfred
Offline perz  
#4 Posted : 11 September 2004 12:44:56(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
OK, thank you for the information.

I agree that the distributed solution is attractive from a system perspective. I think I would have gone for the Lissy system if it wasn't for the fact that I have developed all the hardware for my own system already.

The obvious (and probably only) drawback with the distributed solution is system HW cost. You can probably build the HW much cheaper if you just send in raw detection data to the Central Unit and make all the processing in "virtual Lissys" there.

For upgrade of old systems, Lissy seems perfect since it does not require any upgrade on the Central Unit. A new component like Lissy has to fit into the old infrastructure so the specs seem to be just right.

Another thing about Lissy:

The loco transmitters in the Lissy system has an IR diode mounted directly on the circuit board. This gives simple installation but also some mounting restrictions, especially with 3-rail locos. I have chosen to mount the diode separately for this reason. I think maybe the Lissy system ought to include transmitters with separate IR diodes for those cases where mounting the whole transmitter board under the loco is not possible (e.g. on V60 locos). Of course you can always solder off the diode and solder in wires instead, but for the average modeller that kind of soldering work is too difficult.
Offline Lars Westerlind  
#5 Posted : 11 September 2004 20:48:12(UTC)
Lars Westerlind


Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC)
Posts: 2,379
Location: Lindome, Sweden
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by digilox1
<br />Lars,
AFAIK, Lissy/Fleischmann Train Navigation needs a software 1.5/x.x release or higher of the IB/Twin Center.
This is because of the LocoNet-address programming feature that`s required in order to program transmitter addresses.
Digitrax currently does not offer this feature so, an IB is indispensable even for Digitrax "SuperChief"-users.

Regards,
Manfred


Dear Manfred,
if you are right, the Lissy manual is wrong. It says IB 1.3 in order to do LocoNet programming.

And you are very right that Lissy appears in the Fleischmann program too. And Twin-center with the newly presented upgrade is fully capable of thandling the Lissy. Even Fleischmann Lokboss can be used with Lissy, but with severe limitations.

I'll try to check the IB software number.

Regards,
Lars
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