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Offline James  
#1 Posted : 11 May 2010 00:44:39(UTC)
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James

Canada   
Joined: 23/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 384
Location: Alberta
Hello All:
I was wondering if anyone could explain how a person can determine the quality of a decoder in regards to speed steps. I am interested in a ROCO AC model, but am unsure as how to determine the quality of the decoder. I recently purchased a ROCO BR 18 but I believe that the decoder onboard was similar to a Marklin FX generation decoder not unlike the Marklin "Hobby" line of locos. I'm not sure what the speed steps of the decoder are, but the lok in question jumps from lowere speeds to greater speeds and doesn't have the same running characteristics to be found on the newer MFX line of Loks from Marklin. The price of the loco was reasonable, and so is the price of the new lok I want to purchase, but, I want good running qualities (smaller speed steps) in order to facilitate smoother accelerations. I'm not sure about the ROCO system of decoders and would greatly appreciate any help in discerning if this item would be a good purchase.

Thanks in advance.

James
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Offline TimR  
#2 Posted : 11 May 2010 02:21:46(UTC)
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TimR

Indonesia   
Joined: 16/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Jakarta
I think Roco AC model uses standard Lokpilot V3.0 decoder (Can any Roco owner confirm?). This decoder is a generation ahead of Marklin-Motorola, IMO, but it is restricted to 14 or 28 speed steps if ran on Marklin Systems. I'm pretty sure you can adjust the acc/braking delay to get better running characteristic though to provide smoother acceleration/braking.

If ran on DCC, these decoders would be able to provide 128 speed steps.

If you use Marklin Systems, the only way of getting the same characteristic speed steps like MFX... is to get an MFX decoder.
Either Marklin-sourced MFX or ESU Lokpilot M4.
Now collecting C-Sine models.
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Offline James  
#3 Posted : 11 May 2010 04:27:40(UTC)
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James

Canada   
Joined: 23/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 384
Location: Alberta
Thanks Tim, If I go this route, looks like I'm going to have to change out the decoders.
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James Bannerman
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Offline supermoee  
#4 Posted : 11 May 2010 11:23:01(UTC)
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supermoee

Switzerland   
Joined: 31/05/2007(UTC)
Posts: 534
Hello,

no, ROCO is using mainly very cheap Uhlenbrock decoder. A lot of people are complaining and asking Roco to deliver the locos without decoders instead of this crap decoder.

regds

Stephan
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Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 11 May 2010 16:51:01(UTC)
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H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,443
Location: DE-NW
supermoee wrote:
no, ROCO is using mainly very cheap Uhlenbrock decoder.

I have no Roco loco with an Uhlenbrock decoder (those were only used in the last few months).
Even my BR 152 model from Roco (IIRC this is a 2009 new item) came with an ESU decoder.

Very old (i. e. last century) Roco locos have Lenz decoders.

Most Roco locos on the market have an ESU Lokpilot decoder or an ESU OEM decoder.
They support 14 and 28 speed steps using Motorola protocol and 14, 28, or 126 speed steps using DCC.

With CU 6021 or MS1 you're limited to 14 speed steps.
With CS1, CS2, MS2, Intellibox, ... you can use at least 28 speed steps.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 11 May 2010 16:58:11(UTC)
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H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,443
Location: DE-NW
TimR wrote:
If you use Marklin Systems, the only way of getting the same characteristic speed steps like MFX... is to get an MFX decoder.
Either Marklin-sourced MFX or ESU Lokpilot M4.

Märklin Systems consists of MS1 and CS1.

If you have MS1: you must swap decoders to get more speed steps.

If you have CS1: use Motorola 28 to get 28 speed steps (presuming there's an ESU decoder in the loco).
If you have CS1 reloaded: use DCC with 14, 28, or 126 speed steps (mfx also has a maximum of 126 speed steps).

CS2 and MS2 are Märklin Digital, not Märklin Systems.
Use DCC to get 126 speed steps.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline James  
#7 Posted : 12 May 2010 00:52:45(UTC)
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James

Canada   
Joined: 23/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 384
Location: Alberta
Tom Wrote
Quote:
If you have CS1 reloaded: use DCC with 14, 28, or 126 speed steps (mfx also has a maximum of 126 speed steps)./quote]

Perhaps you could explain how this would be done?

I have the CS2 with (apparently) the DCC upgrade, at least I have the drop down menu that lists the DCC set-up for entering locomotives into the data base. What I don't understand is that I was under the impression that I cannot run an AC lok through a DCC set-up. I thought DCC was a digital system that was based on 2-rail trackage, and that Marklin's motorola was for use on a 3-rail track system.

I have seen the CS2 run both motorola and DCC at the same time, but the trackage was not run together. In my own defense I have to say that when it comes to this type of tech I'm very much in the dark. I also know that Marklin's track (at least the K track) uses three rails each independent of one another. Therefore, I can see how both 2-rail and 3-rail can be run on the same track, but only if one of the return rails were to be a dedicated power rail. All of which could prove to be a very tricky bit of construction.

So my question is... can a non-MFX locomotive (that is either ROCO or Fleischmann) be run on a Marklin 3-rail layout (under 3 rail)if that said lok were to be entered into the database under the DCC heading in the menu?

Sincerely
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Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 12 May 2010 01:10:26(UTC)
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H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,443
Location: DE-NW
James wrote:
So my question is... can a non-MFX locomotive (that is either ROCO or Fleischmann) be run on a Marklin 3-rail layout (under 3 rail)if that said lok were to be entered into the database under the DCC heading in the menu?

Yes.

DCC, MM, mfx are only different "digital languages".
2-rail and 3-rail are different track systems.

You can combine any "language" with any track system.
Roco, Fleischmann, Brawa, Piko will all run if they have a center-rail pickup ex works. And most of them will run better with DCC.

I don't have a CS2, therefore I can't tell you how to do it with a CS2 - but from hearsay I know that it works.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline pa-pauls  
#9 Posted : 12 May 2010 01:25:27(UTC)
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pa-pauls


Joined: 08/06/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,843
Location: Norway
H0 wrote:
.....but from hearsay I know that it works.

Yes it does ThumpUp
Pål Paulsen
Märklin Spur 1 Digital, epoche 3
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Offline James  
#10 Posted : 12 May 2010 03:32:21(UTC)
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James

Canada   
Joined: 23/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 384
Location: Alberta
Tom:

Thank you for this little bit of tech knowledge. Now I see the reasoning for making the CS2 with the DCC capabilities. This just keeps getting better and better.OhMyGod
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Offline TimR  
#11 Posted : 12 May 2010 03:36:46(UTC)
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TimR

Indonesia   
Joined: 16/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Jakarta
H0 wrote:

Märklin Systems consists of MS1 and CS1.

...

CS2 and MS2 are Märklin Digital, not Märklin Systems.


Thanks for the correction,
Got to admit, I was a little lost with how Marklin changed from "Digital" to "Systems" and back to "Digital" again - though I was only referring to post-MFX Marklin controllers in general.
Now collecting C-Sine models.
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Offline sudibarba  
#12 Posted : 12 May 2010 06:02:36(UTC)
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sudibarba

United States   
Joined: 28/07/2006(UTC)
Posts: 880
Location: Augusta, GA USA
I am confused. I have some Delta, marklin digital, MFX, and a bunch of LokPilot3's. I run a CS2.
Should I have the CS2 set up a special way or do the decoders default to the best speed steps available? I have to admit that I was aware of the various speed steps but really had not looked into it. Can I set up the CS2 to run the Motorola, Mfx as well as run the Lokpilots under DCC to get the 128 steps? One continuous layout. Help!
Thanks,
Eric
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Offline nevw  
#13 Posted : 12 May 2010 06:27:52(UTC)
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nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,071
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
Eric,
I may be wrong BUT I think the CS2 will read DCC and LP3 decoders can be set up DCC or Marklin motorola.

NN
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Offline H0  
#14 Posted : 13 May 2010 03:43:01(UTC)
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H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,443
Location: DE-NW
Hi, Eric!
sudibarba wrote:
Should I have the CS2 set up a special way or do the decoders default to the best speed steps available?

I don't have a CS2, but if you enter locos manually by address, you may have 14 speed steps only where a loco is capable of 28 or even 126 speed steps.

I think it's important to know the capabilities of each decoder and to make sure they are set-up properly (if that matters). But I only have a CS1.

I think 14 speed steps are sufficient if the prototypical speed of the loco is 140 km/h or less. I prefer 28 speed steps, especially for faster locos, and use them if available.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline river6109  
#15 Posted : 13 May 2010 04:34:58(UTC)
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river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,875
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
The 14 speed steps, as mentioned above are sufficient but not the other way around when braking, especially larger layouts with 13 or 14 passenger carriages with a prototypical braking distance.

John
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