Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
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Hi, folks! On the HAG forum I found the following link (German only): http://www.nexusboard.ne...2408&threadid=313771Long story short: EU regulations require switching power supplies instead of transformers. Märklin follows this requirement: no more transformers in 2010 starter sets! The sets with a CS 2 include a 60 VA switching power supply. Bad news for owners of CU 6021, Intellibox or Delta Control: these items will only work with AC, so keep your transformers. Transformers will still be replaced. Dealers can still sell the transformers they have on stock. CS 1 reloaded works much better with stabilized power supply. New CS 2 owners will also enjoy this benefit. Edited by user 21 May 2010 00:51:15(UTC)
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Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS  |
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 Joined: 09/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 498 Location: christchurch, canterbury
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that makes sense the one thing old transformers were known for was that their voltage was always variable and over stated voltage. digital stuff is very critical so far as power needs which is why digital layouts need power input every 2 meters so a constant and even supply is available over all the layout, which makes for happy running  |
were we pickit, packit and postit |
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Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,771 Location: New Zealand
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I can't see any downside to this decision! Now all M has to do is to up the CS2 current output to 4 amps to match the CS1 Reloaded.
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old toot wrote:that makes sense the one thing old transformers were known for was that their voltage was always variable and over stated voltage. digital stuff is very critical so far as power needs which is why digital layouts need power input every 2 meters so a constant and even supply is available over all the layout, which makes for happy running Voltage is one thing. Digital signal is another thing. Or not ? I'm not sure the "input" every 3 or 4 meters was for electrical power rather than integrity of digital code...  . Voltage may vary with load. Digital signal may vary with distance What about electrical resistance of the track ? What about connections between pieces of Tracks ? What is a "floating output" ? ...... .... .. (too many questions on my mind)
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 Joined: 29/04/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,391 Location: Chennai
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What is a Switching Power Supply? |
Gautham
Atlanta, GA USA |
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H0 wrote:Hi, folks!
Bad news for owners of CU 6021, Intellibox or Delta Control: this items will only work with AC, so keep your transformers.
Transformers will still be repaired. Dealers can still sell the transformers they have on stock. Can't imagine this is bad news for most non-CS 2 users. There are plenty transformers on the market (Viessmann, Uhlenbrock etc... ) often more powerfull an less expensive.
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Joined: 21/02/2009(UTC)
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Supply and demand. Maybe the 12 or so Blue transformers I have will now sell on EBay for decent amount...  |
Never quit building. |
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Joined: 04/12/2009(UTC)
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That include everything, such as the 60055? Like I stated eariler, just jumpped into the hobby feet first within the past few months... And are there universal transformers that would work with the CS1? |
I'd rather let 1000 guilty men get away, than chase after them.
Chief Wiggum |
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gundamman wrote:And are there universal transformers that would work with the CS1? You can buy switch-mode power supplies that take anything from 100 through 240 volts. Or buy the ESU upgrade ("CS1 reloaded") that includes such a power supply. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
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 Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC) Posts: 15,870 Location: Gibraltar, Europe
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So what happens to analogue users? Is there no more facilty for running analogue unless you go second hand? |
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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gachar001 wrote:What is a Switching Power Supply? A unit to convert one voltage (ac or dc) to another (dc). The unit contains a constant frequency oscillator followed by variable pulse width modulator followed by a heavy duty low pass filter. The wider the pulse (12V) (and, thus, the narrower the space (0V)) the higher the smoothed output voltage will be. Not sure though how to build an ac output one. Transformers are so simple in comparison. Chris. |
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RayPayas wrote:So what happens to analogue users? Is there no more facilty for running analogue unless you go second hand? Wait and see. Märklin's decision is based on EU regulations. I had a short look at that regulation, but gave up as my Legalese is not too good. Maybe this regulation does not apply to analogue model railroad, so transformers like 6647 may still be available. And spare parts to replace existing items are allowed for 10 years (so maybe the 60052/60055 will be around for some more years). The regulation applies to items that include a separate power supply. The regulation definitely applies to starter sets - and those are all updated by M*. I found no official information about this topic on the M* website. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
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Joined: 29/04/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,391 Location: Chennai
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Chris Manvell wrote:A unit to convert one voltage (ac or dc) to another (dc). The unit contains a constant frequency oscillator followed by variable pulse width modulator followed by a heavy duty low pass filter. The wider the pulse (12V) (and, thus, the narrower the space (0V)) the higher the smoothed output voltage will be. Not sure though how to build an ac output one. Transformers are so simple in comparison.
Chris. Thanks. |
Gautham
Atlanta, GA USA |
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 Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC) Posts: 9,593 Location: Australia
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gachar001 wrote:What is a Switching Power Supply? Thanks for asking this question... |
Adrian Australia flag by abFlags.com |
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Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC) Posts: 9,593 Location: Australia
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Chris Manvell wrote:A unit to convert one voltage (ac or dc) to another (dc). The unit contains a constant frequency oscillator followed by variable pulse width modulator followed by a heavy duty low pass filter. The wider the pulse (12V) (and, thus, the narrower the space (0V)) the higher the smoothed output voltage will be. Not sure though how to build an ac output one. Transformers are so simple in comparison.
Chris. Thanks for the answer, but I am still not sure of the difference... So in goes 240V AC and out comes 17V DC.. Are the power supplies of the eCOS and CS1 already switching units??  |
AdrianAustralia flag by abFlags.com |
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xxup wrote:Are the power supplies of the eCOS and CS1 already switching units?? ECoS and CS1 reloaded come with stabilized power supplies (switch-mode power supplies). |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
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Joined: 01/01/2008(UTC)
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xxup wrote:Thanks for the answer, but I am still not sure of the difference... So in goes 240V AC and out comes 17V DC.. Are the power supplies of the eCOS and CS1 already switching units?? No problem, though not the clearest of explanations. Switching power supplies are ideal for analogue train. In fact a friend of mine has been using a bespoke switching supply for low speed running (remember, the 'spike' voltage is the maximum voltage - gets round dirt) for while now. On the other hand I am not so sure how it would apply to AC. It may be a read herring. Chris, |
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Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
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Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
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Don't you think that Brushless motors like Marklin SDS motors have better behaviour with switch mode power supply than with transformers ? (switch-mode power-supply is more suited to these motors)
Don't you think that those brushless SDS motors are more "sensible" than ordinary motors to the change of power unit ?
-Specially if running with a new kind of controler implementing "switch-mode power supply" instead of classical transformer with potentiometer
- Also under "digital regulation" ( with MS2 or CS2/CS1) ?
Also : in the future this new "swith mode" power supply will allow -probably- to add more accurate electronic devices on digital layouts ...(or not ?)
PS End 2008 I remember Trix France saying that Trix planned to produce a new kind of "transformer" more suitable for "SDS-motors" than old tranformers , to run them on analog 2 rails layouts. After 2008, 2009 came with restructuring...we haven't seen anything yet.
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Joined: 26/01/2009(UTC)
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Hi!
I read in the Märklin Magazine nr 1/2010, that they would manufacture switching power supplies in 18VA, 32 VA, 60VA and 110VA.
/Anders
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 Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC) Posts: 12,139 Location: New York, NY
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H0 wrote:EU regulations require switching power supplies ... no more transformers Thanks for information, Tom. ... bananas, cucumbers, light bulbs - and now MRR transformers  Totally decadent bunch of gangsters. Throw 'em out of town. For your relief, my friend -  ours aren't better the least ... |
I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC) Posts: 15,870 Location: Gibraltar, Europe
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If I'm reading this correctly, we will end up controlling analogue marklin trains with variable DC supplies. No longer will we be able to describe them as AC trains.
This is the end of an era. |
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC) Posts: 12,139 Location: New York, NY
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You're right, Ray - it's the end of an era, alas (surely M isn't that unhappy about with the outlook of selling new controllers). Luckily I've bought lotta starter sets in the past thus being well equipped with spare transformers for years to come  |
I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC)
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RayPayas wrote:If I'm reading this correctly, we will end up controlling analogue marklin trains with variable DC supplies. Easy answer: YES! (most older Märklin models are equipped with an "all current motor"). Edited by user 21 February 2010 15:18:43(UTC)
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 Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,594 Location: Spain
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Hemmerich wrote:RayPayas wrote:If I'm reading this correctly, we will end up controlling analogue marklin trains with variable DC supplies. Easy answer: NO! Thank you for this clear and usefull information. A really in-depth explication of the subject at hand. Impressively enlightening! |
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Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC) Posts: 12,139 Location: New York, NY
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Comment removed by Webmaster 2010-02-21 20:29.Though there never a question was asked by us - statements it been Ray and me had made. Oh well ...   Edited by moderator 21 February 2010 21:29:33(UTC)
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I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC) Posts: 15,870 Location: Gibraltar, Europe
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Hemmerich wrote:RayPayas wrote:If I'm reading this correctly, we will end up controlling analogue marklin trains with variable DC supplies. Easy answer: NO! Glad to hear it. Would you like to elaborate? How will they generate the AC? |
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
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RayPayas wrote:If I'm reading this correctly, we will end up controlling analogue marklin trains with variable DC supplies. No longer will we be able to describe them as AC trains. I don't think so. Digital locos can also be used for analog operation - but old locos won't run on DC, so there must be some sort of AC to use all locos. Analog transformers will be available for a few more years as replacements (I'm not even sure if they are affected by the EU regulations if sold separately). |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
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Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC) Posts: 15,870 Location: Gibraltar, Europe
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H0 wrote:RayPayas wrote:If I'm reading this correctly, we will end up controlling analogue marklin trains with variable DC supplies. No longer will we be able to describe them as AC trains. I don't think so. Digital locos can also be used for analog operation - but old locos won't run on DC, so there must be some sort of AC to use all locos. Analog transformers will be available for a few more years as replacements (I'm not even sure if they are affected by the EU regulations if sold separately). Tom, you are mistaken. A traditional Marklin analogue loco will run perfectly well on DC. Try it! Of course getting the reversing pulse requires a higher voltage. |
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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RayPayas wrote:Tom, you are mistaken. A traditional Marklin analogue loco will run perfectly well on DC. Try it! You got me wrong, pay attention to the first half of my sentence: old digital locos won't run on DC. New digital locos will run on DC and will change the direction if the polarity changes (if DC is enabled). |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
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Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC) Posts: 15,870 Location: Gibraltar, Europe
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H0 wrote:RayPayas wrote:Tom, you are mistaken. A traditional Marklin analogue loco will run perfectly well on DC. Try it! You got me wrong, pay attention to the first half of my sentence: old digital locos won't run on DC. New digital locos will run on DC and will change the direction if the polarity changes (if DC is enabled). Sorry Tom, I misunderstood you. I would have thought an old digital loco would still run in one direction on DC, but I must admit I haven't tried that. |
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Joined: 15/07/2003(UTC)
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hmmm,seems to me that 'real' analogue operation with of M items is no longer possible, but as said earlier there should be thousands of trafos available second hand at ebay or others. but.... the 'charity' action of M from the last year(s) 'exchange your old blue transformers' for 'little' money becomes a 'stock clearance' behaviour for me... another marketing trick of them... |
alfred...with M since 1960...layout under construction (in mind...)
collecting M items - but not a collector...
editing posts only for tyops...uppps...typos |
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Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC) Posts: 12,139 Location: New York, NY
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klinge-germany wrote:
... the 'charity' action of M from the last year(s) 'exchange your old blue transformers' for
'little' money becomes a 'stock clearance' behaviour for me ... another marketing trick of them ...
Hi Alfred, excellent   - great comparison !!! Reminds me a bit of them bastard clowns crawling out of the woods, nowadays, and talking sheep into giving their precious gold for toilet paper "money" ...  And of course I agree with your view re the end of classic analog operation. At least for those not in the know. Hope you're fine, my friend ! John |
I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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Joined: 08/05/2009(UTC) Posts: 590 Location: Sydney
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I'm would like to know exactly what the EU rules says, regarding operating toys/equiptment requireng an AC power source in order operate. Not just what I read in the Marklin Magazine. |
Regards Kenneth
CS1 update - K & C tracks - German Era 3B & 4, with some Swiss and Austrian visitors. - My Layout |
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 Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 7,453 Location: Scotland
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For a start here in the UK all transformers etc should be fitted with a UK three pin plug but nobody seems to bother when it comes to German model rail. Retailers should ensure that what they are selling conforms to the laws of their country but most Marklin sellers here are clueless even about what they sell never mind if it is dangerous.
However I reckon nobody died so it is ignored. |
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer. |
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
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Märklin write on their home page that the 32 VA transformers for analog operation (6646, 6647, ...) will still be available as the new EU regulations do not apply to them. Nothing changes for analog drivers. The German text can be found here: http://www.maerklin.de/d...fos/schaltnetzteile.html |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
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Joined: 26/03/2006(UTC) Posts: 1,423 Location: Brisbane, QLD
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Since this topic has been livened-up, I'll add some comments. 1. The banning of transformers is for safety reasons: if you connect the output of a 240V to 16V transformer to the output terminals of another 240V to 16V transformer, you get 240V on the mains plug of that second transformer. Not safe. Also impossible to prevent with a simple transformer. 2. It is quite possible to generate low-voltage AC using a switch mode supply. A battery to mains invertor does something just like that -- it converts 12Vdc for 240Vac. Imagine the same thing, but 240Vac input to intermediate Vdc to 16Vac (or variable Vac). It's true that I don't know of any off-the-shelf unit that does that, but it's not fundamentally difficult. Hmmm, a possible niche market...  |
Cheers,
Damon |
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Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC) Posts: 15,870 Location: Gibraltar, Europe
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DamonKelly wrote:Since this topic has been livened-up, I'll add some comments. 1. The banning of transformers is for safety reasons: if you connect the output of a 240V to 16V transformer to the output terminals of another 240V to 16V transformer, you get 240V on the mains plug of that second transformer. Not safe. Also impossible to prevent with a simple transformer. 2. It is quite possible to generate low-voltage AC using a switch mode supply. A battery to mains invertor does something just like that -- it converts 12Vdc for 240Vac. Imagine the same thing, but 240Vac input to intermediate Vdc to 16Vac (or variable Vac). It's true that I don't know of any off-the-shelf unit that does that, but it's not fundamentally difficult. Hmmm, a possible niche market... Hi Damon, I think the safety problem of connecting the two transformers back to back had already been addressed by Marklin in the white transformer, hence their free swap offer a couple of years ago. These latest EU rules relate to energy efficiency, in particular regarding equipment that has a "standby" mode. As an analogue trainset has no such standby mode the Marklin analogue transformers are exempt from this EU directive. |
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Marklin will publish some more info on this issue in an article in an upcoming edition of the Marklin Magazine.
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DamonKelly wrote:1. The banning of transformers is for safety reasons: if you connect the output of a 240V to 16V transformer to the output terminals of another 240V to 16V transformer, you get 240V on the mains plug of that second transformer. Not safe. Also impossible to prevent with a simple transformer. Märklin solved this problem years ago with a TRIAC on the 230 V side. Therefore 60052/60055 and current 6647/6647 do not have this back-transformation risk. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
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Joined: 26/03/2006(UTC) Posts: 1,423 Location: Brisbane, QLD
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H0 wrote:DamonKelly wrote:1. The banning of transformers is for safety reasons: if you connect the output of a 240V to 16V transformer to the output terminals of another 240V to 16V transformer, you get 240V on the mains plug of that second transformer. Not safe. Also impossible to prevent with a simple transformer. Märklin solved this problem years ago with a TRIAC on the 230 V side. Therefore 60052/60055 and current 6647/6647 do not have this back-transformation risk. Thanks Tom, yes a triac is an obvious (in hindsight) solution!  My experience with Märklin AC is the old ('60s) variable transformers, so I never considered such a simple solution. In my defence, I did say "a simple transformer" My electronic design career is low voltage, data acquisition and microcontroller stuff... And Ray, I agree, an analog variable transformer would surely have an extremely low "standby" current. So if the analog transformers are exempt, why are Märklin abandoning them (if they indeed are)? |
Cheers,
Damon |
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
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DamonKelly wrote:So if the analog transformers are exempt, why are Märklin abandoning them (if they indeed are)? I wrote in #37 that 6647 and 6646 are kept in production because they are not affected by the new EU requirements. It seems there are currently no analog starter sets in their programme. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
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