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Offline Gregor  
#1 Posted : 12 February 2009 14:07:20(UTC)
Gregor

Netherlands   
Joined: 17/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 996
Location: Netherlands
Question for the electronic guru's.

A k83 has four turnout outputs. Inside the box, all yellow connections of these outputs are joined together. It is therefore possible to join the 4 yellow wires of 4 turnouts, and connect a single common yellow wire to one of the k83 outputs. This works, I have tried.

Question now concerns multiple k83's: Can I safely connect the yellow common ground of all the individual k83's together ? This would allow me to run one common yellow line underneath the layout, to which I connect all turnouts.

Thanks in advance for your answer.

Best regards,
Gregor
Offline Maxi  
#2 Posted : 12 February 2009 15:08:24(UTC)
Maxi


Joined: 28/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 757
Location: Wawa, Ontario
That is exactly what I did.
I ran a bare copper wire 14 gauge around the length of my layout and clearly marked it as the ground for K83 devices. This allowed me to then use a single cat 5 network cable for each K83 since the cat5 network cable has 4 pairs of wire in it. Makes for a neater install in my opinion.
Offline MarioFabro  
#3 Posted : 12 February 2009 18:31:48(UTC)
MarioFabro

United States   
Joined: 16/10/2001(UTC)
Posts: 793
Location: Pittsburgh,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Maxi
<br />That is exactly what I did.
I ran a bare copper wire 14 gauge around the length of my layout and clearly marked it as the ground for K83 devices. This allowed me to then use a single cat 5 network cable for each K83 since the cat5 network cable has 4 pairs of wire in it. Makes for a neater install in my opinion.

Matthew, can you add a picture or two? I am in the designing stages and would like to see how you guys do all this wiring
UserPostedImageUserPostedImageUserPostedImageEra IV-VI --- "If you have brains you love trains" or "When I grow up, I will play with trains"
Offline Gregor  
#4 Posted : 12 February 2009 19:03:10(UTC)
Gregor

Netherlands   
Joined: 17/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 996
Location: Netherlands
It would look something like this:
UserPostedImage
(picture shows 5 turnouts instead of 16)

Advantage is that you only need to bring the blue leads of each turnout to the decoder, and connect the yellow to a nearby point on the yellow common line.
Offline Maxi  
#5 Posted : 12 February 2009 19:04:33(UTC)
Maxi


Joined: 28/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 757
Location: Wawa, Ontario
That would be correct.
Once I get home, I'll snap a few pictures of a section that is still in the open. My train room is running out of space to store boxes.
Offline Graham HO  
#6 Posted : 13 February 2009 01:11:45(UTC)
Graham HO

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/07/2008(UTC)
Posts: 125
Good scheme - thanks very much, I'm off to get hold of some Cat5 cable
Offline intruder  
#7 Posted : 13 February 2009 02:39:40(UTC)
intruder

Norway   
Joined: 16/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 5,382
Location: Akershus, Norway
According to a Märklin information (digital book or something) you should never connect the yellow output from two or more decoders together.

The only reason I can see for this warning, is the tolerance of the rectifier inside the decoders. There might be a small difference in the output voltage from one decoder to another. This may in the worst case lead to an overload (heat generation) of the rectifier.

If connecting like suggested above, it's better to check the rectifier temperature after a while. If the temperature is normal inside the decoder there should be no problem.


I have massured 0,25 Volt difference between two of my decoders. But - they are connected to "B" and "0" quite far appart, so it is also an input voltage difference.

Due to the digital signal pattern between "B" and "0" you probably need an true RMS multimeter to meassure it accurately.
Best regards Svein, Norway
grumpy old sod
Offline Maxi  
#8 Posted : 13 February 2009 03:34:19(UTC)
Maxi


Joined: 28/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 757
Location: Wawa, Ontario
Here is an example of how I connected the yellow wires to the bare copper wire. The K83 is connected to the bare wire on the left of the arrow and one of the yellow wires is connected via a extension which in this case was some left over brown and white cat5 wire. All connections are soldered on and the extension pieces have shrink tubing over the soldered connections. I leave extra wire under the layout so that if I have to lift a section of track, the slack in wires make for an easier removal.

UserPostedImage

The second photo shows the connections at the turnout end.

UserPostedImage
Offline hemau  
#9 Posted : 13 February 2009 20:13:35(UTC)
hemau


Joined: 09/01/2007(UTC)
Posts: 589
Location: The Netherlands
I wouldn't call this common ground but common feed. Yellow is where the power is coming from. The common ground is the tracks.
Regards, Henk
C and M track; CS1R and 2 MS
Offline clapcott  
#10 Posted : 13 February 2009 23:20:08(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,435
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by intruder
<br />According to a Märklin information (digital book or something) you should never connect the yellow output from two or more decoders together.

The only reason I can see for this warning, is the tolerance of the rectifier inside the decoders. There might be a small difference in the output voltage from one decoder to another. This may in the worst case lead to an overload (heat generation) of the rectifier.

If connecting like suggested above, it's better to check the rectifier temperature after a while. If the temperature is normal inside the decoder there should be no problem.


I have massured 0,25 Volt difference between two of my decoders. But - they are connected to "B" and "0" quite far appart, so it is also an input voltage difference.

Due to the digital signal pattern between "B" and "0" you probably need an true RMS multimeter to meassure it accurately.

I concur.

I would not tie the yellows of different k83s together
Peter
Offline Lars Westerlind  
#11 Posted : 14 February 2009 13:38:50(UTC)
Lars Westerlind


Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC)
Posts: 2,379
Location: Lindome, Sweden
I wouldn't do it either. It could work, but you take unnecessary risks. Turnouts connected to same k83 is another story; in some case it's even necessary: 3 way turnout, 3 aspect signals.

/Lars
Offline Gregor  
#12 Posted : 14 February 2009 19:22:51(UTC)
Gregor

Netherlands   
Joined: 17/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 996
Location: Netherlands
Mmmmh, so to be safe I better run a couple of extra yellow wires.

Thanks everybody for your help.

Best regards,
Gregor
Offline DaleSchultz  
#13 Posted : 14 February 2009 19:39:48(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
I have not connected the yellows of k83 modules together.
The block diagram on page 82 of the Märklin digital book does show that all 4 yellow ports are connected (as stated) so I would say that so long as the turnouts being driven belong to the same k83 module, then their yellows could be shared at the turnouts instead of all running wires back to the k83 to be shared.

So I think the rule is:
run at least one yellow per k83 module
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline clapcott  
#14 Posted : 14 February 2009 23:10:02(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,435
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Because the Yellow is a -22V pedestal generated within each k83 there is, at minimum, an additional capacitor and diode between it and the blues of another k83. Tieing the yellows together @ the k83s bypasses this and in some ways "potentially" increasing the effective capacitance for a bigger punch. BUT it is also stressing the weakest links which will be doing most of the work all of the time.

As stated this can work if there is close tolerances of the two units. However as there are at least two (PCB) versions of 6083 as well as the 60830 this cannot be guaranteed.
If you want to coexist with Viesman or other look a likes (some of which do cater for a separate yellow input - which is different from the yellow output) then all bets are off.

This also presumes the normal usage of a k83 as a pulse in the circuit - if you have a short (moisture in the mechanism from over zealous PVA when ballasting) the domain of potential failure , and resulting problem determination, is greatly broadened

Add to this the possibility that (in the future) you may have k83s on layout segments powered by different booster - some of which will not have a common brown let alone a common red.

You may think you understand all these risks but if you entertain comrades to help on your layout or are likely to expand the layout over time and/or introduce new technology as it comes along ......

In the case of a club layout - keep it standard and minimise the risk as much as possible.

I say - Just don't go there

Peter
Offline Gregor  
#15 Posted : 17 February 2009 09:54:02(UTC)
Gregor

Netherlands   
Joined: 17/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 996
Location: Netherlands
Hi all,

Yesterday I joined the yellow leads of 4 turnouts. There was a short circuit and I had to disconnect the turnouts one by one to find the faulty one.

Which made me decide to connect all the yellow leads individually to the k83, in line with Clapcott's recommendation. This will make diagnostics much easier, and will also enable me to connect one turnout to another decoder, in case I manage to frie one of the four outputs (if that is possible at all)

I am glad I learned this lesson with the first set of 4 turnouts, before the start of real wiring.

Thanks for your input.

Best regards,
Gregor
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