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Offline Roger E  
#1 Posted : 13 September 2008 01:24:16(UTC)
Roger E


Joined: 23/01/2007(UTC)
Posts: 46
Location: Asker, Norway
Hi.
I got into Märklin trains in my childhood, in the 1960’s. A friend of mine also had a train set, but this was then 2-rail and we were kind of fighting over which system was the best (like kids of all ages tend to do... ). It was easy to find good reasons for why 3-rail was best, but when it came to the advantages of AC I was completely blank. In the end we kind of agreed that 3-rail was the best track and DC was the best power feed – a draw so to say.

40 years later I am still wondering why on earth Märklin decided to use AC power. In order to change direction of the loc Märklin had to design into every loc a quite complicated direction change relay. This made the loc not only more expensive, but also less reliable than if using DC. With DC, direction change is done simply by changing the polarity on the track.

The direction change relay usually worked fine when properly adjusted and the loc had good power pick up, but when badly adjusted or on dirty track or wheels the loc could change direction on its own or take off at high speed – should be familiar to those of you that have played with pre-digital locs. For locs with digital decoder this is not an issue any more since direction change is done by an electronic circuit.

So why did Märklin use AC? The best reason I can think of is that a mains-to-DC power source would be more complicated than a transformer in the early days. Or maybe some patent issues? confused

Best regards,
Roger
Offline RayF  
#2 Posted : 13 September 2008 01:35:23(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,870
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I think you've hit on the reason, Roger. A low voltage, variable AC supply was easy to achieve with a tranformer and variable tap on the secondary winding.

DC supplies, on the other hand, would have involved rectifiers, which were not trivial in the days before solid state electronics. There would have been a lot of heat, arcing, etc, with all the attendant safety issues.

Another issue is that small DC motors were not easy to make in those days, as the technology was not available to make small powerful magnets.

Ray
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 13 September 2008 02:11:01(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,450
Location: DE-NW
Hello!
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Roger E
<br />So why did Märklin use AC?

There were no reliable rectifiers in the beginning.
M* used AC/DC motors, but I don't know if they also used DC to operate them.

Did you know that M* locos didn't even have Mechanical Reverse Units (MRUs) in the beginning?
The first generation of MRUs didn't switch motor power off when engaged. Locos were running full speed as long as the direction change was on.
Modern MRUs allow only a small "jump" from the loco.
Still imperfect compared to Electronic Reverse Units or digital decoders.

At that early time there were also other brands using AC with mechanical direction switches in the loco. I don't remember the name of the company, but one used the smoke stack as direction switch (users had to turn the smoke stack to change the direction of the loco).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline mvd71  
#4 Posted : 13 September 2008 02:30:31(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,924
Location: Auckland,
Actually, When AC power is supplied, for a given speed setting the higher peak vaoltage in the sine wave enables you to more satisfactorily overcome poor contact when running at low speed.

Therefore, for an equal power setting, and equal dirt on the track, your AC powered loco should perform better.

This is most likely the reason why the DC manufacturers have offered track cleaning cars for so many years, when Marklin has not had the need.

Hope this helps resolve your childhood conflictswink

Cheers....

Mike.
Offline mike c  
#5 Posted : 13 September 2008 03:54:50(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 8,241
Location: Montreal, QC
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Roger E
<br />40 years later I am still wondering why on earth Märklin decided to use AC power. In order to change direction of the loc Märklin had to design into every loc a quite complicated direction change relay. This made the loc not only more expensive, but also less reliable than if using DC. With DC, direction change is done simply by changing the polarity on the track.

The direction change relay usually worked fine when properly adjusted and the loc had good power pick up, but when badly adjusted or on dirty track or wheels the loc could change direction on its own or take off at high speed – should be familiar to those of you that have played with pre-digital locs. For locs with digital decoder this is not an issue any more since direction change is done by an electronic circuit.

So why did Märklin use AC? The best reason I can think of is that a mains-to-DC power source would be more complicated than a transformer in the early days. Or maybe some patent issues? confused


Roger,

A fairly easy one to answer. Maerklin started HO scale in the 1930s. The small scale adaptation of O gauge trains included the 3 rail system.
The first competitors (see Trix Express) also used a 3 rail system.
Later, other manufacturers (Fleischmann, etc) began producing models in this scale using 2 rail DC.

Maerklin loks could be reversed by initiating a surge, which would activate a relay in the lok, causing the lok to reverse. Manual change of direction was also possible using the lever built in to the relay mechanism.

DC loks could be reversed by reversing the polarity of the tracks. Initially this was accomplished by clicking a switch on the transformer. Later transformers included a central 0 with direction selected by turning the lever clockwise or counterclockwise.
The other way to reverse the lok was to physically lift and turn the lok around.
The introduction of digital has revolutionized the DC world, making directional problems (polarity) and reverse loops a problem of the past.
Modellers who wish to be as prototypical as possible often select the 2 rail DC system for a few reasons, including:
1) Sticklers do not want a third rail as it is not prototypical
2) DC tracks offer flex tracks, slim switches and other possibilities so far offered by Maerklin only in limited items.
3) DC tracks tended to be more prototypical in terms of ties and design of the railbed.
4) DC companies took more risks in terms of models (level of detail) than did Maerklin. This was one way for these companies to compete with M. These companies saw the opportunity that followed the demise of ADE and decided to go for that niche.

There are a few prototype modellers who use DC trackage, but power their electric models using AC through the catenary. This is an interesting way to combine the two technologies.

I have been experimenting using the reverse, using AC Maerklin C-Track with DC power through the catenary.

The choice is up to each modeller, depending on requirements and personal tastes, most often based on childhood experience.

I can say that Maerklin's M-Track outlived the Triang track that we had as kids in the 1960s. The M-Track withstood all of the abuse that we could heap on it, and still can be run today, although I prefer not to mix the solid 3rd rail material with the newer track.

It is for that reason that I decided to buy my nephew a start set with C-Track. Unfortunately, due to pieces breaking off, it is too bad that they did not stick with the good old metal tracks, but that is a whole other issue.

They should have made M Tracks in radius 3 and 4 before discontinuing the line.[:(]

Regards

Mike C
Offline Roger E  
#6 Posted : 17 September 2008 02:27:36(UTC)
Roger E


Joined: 23/01/2007(UTC)
Posts: 46
Location: Asker, Norway
Thank you all for solving this mystery of Märklin AC.wink

The answer is then that AC was already well established for train power when Märklin introduced H0 scale, and that rectifiers was not trivial at the time.

I checked a bit further on this and found that selenium rectifiers were invented in 1933, only 2 years before Märklin introduced H0 scale in 1935. It is thus likely that the rectifiers would be both too big and too expensive for the purpose. Later on when other manufacturers introduced H0 products, the rectifiers had matured enough to be used in DC power supplies. It also appears that at least one brand, Trix Express, initially used AC and later changed to DC (in 1953). Märklin on the other hand, continued using AC until finally solving the issues with the introduction of digital control (and electronic reverse unit for analog operation).

Regards,
Roger
Offline TTRExpress  
#7 Posted : 17 September 2008 06:57:34(UTC)
TTRExpress

United States   
Joined: 06/04/2006(UTC)
Posts: 655
Yes, actually TRIX Express introduced the first 00/HO scale electric train to the marketplace in 1935 at the Leipzig Toy Fair before Maerklin and it was an AC system. What differentiated and made TRIX unique was the fact that the 3-rails were all electrically isolated from each other which allowed for 2 trains to be run independently on one track (3 trains with catenary). TRIX did change over to 3-rail DC in 1953 but still continued to offer AC locomotives until 1957. Both manufacturers were known for their quality and attention to detail. Now they are "one"!!<u></u><u></u>

Regards (a Scot in Wisconsin),

Maurice [ETE, TTRCA, IG-TRIX Express, Maerklin-Insider & TRIX Profi-Club]
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