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Offline Leng  
#1 Posted : 24 July 2008 11:12:09(UTC)
Leng


Joined: 24/07/2008(UTC)
Posts: 5
Location: ,
Hello! I've just started with this hobby recently with a Marklin digital starter set (29840), and everything is working fine except for one problem :(

The set includes a Class 85 loco with 4 passenger cars. The loco runs fine but the 4 passenger cars will short the circuit on the curved turnouts, causing sparks!

I did some experimenting and found that this problem affects both the turnouts (24671 and 24672) provided in the kit. As the car exits the turnout on the outer curved track towards the merged end, it will short the track, sometimes causing the CS to cut off power.

If the car is exiting the turnout on the inner track to the merged end, there is no such problem.

The other Class 55 loco with the freight cars do not have this problem. And I've set up the circuit exactly as shown in the manual.

I could do with some advice. Thanks!
Offline RayF  
#2 Posted : 24 July 2008 11:55:47(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,840
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
If it is one particular car causing the problem, check the wheel spacing on it. It could be the wheels are too close together or too far apart.

Ray
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Leng  
#3 Posted : 24 July 2008 17:06:05(UTC)
Leng


Joined: 24/07/2008(UTC)
Posts: 5
Location: ,
Unfortunately it affects all 4 passenger cars.

I checked further and found that the wheels are 'bridging' the rail and the centre spur as the car passes goes through the last segment of the turnouts.

Could I adjust the wheel spacing to prevent this? How do I do it?

Sorry for all these questions... I'm very new at model railroads.

I'm bumped that Marklin will let this through quality control though, :(
Offline dntower85  
#4 Posted : 24 July 2008 17:59:37(UTC)
dntower85

United States   
Joined: 08/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,218
Location: Shady Shores, TX - USA
Is it happening on both turnouts? or just the one? It does sound like the wheel spacing is off, measure the spacing on the fright cars and compare with the passenger cars. the wheels slide on the axles and can be moved easily. Sounds like the spaceing is too narrow and the wheel is dropping off the frog.
To prevent unnecessary shorting to your CS, I would remove the turn out and an few sections of track around it.
run the cars manually across and visually inspect the clearance. If you have an ohm meter connect it to the track and see where it makes contact. Even a simple battery, flash light bulb and some wires can be used to indicate where the short is. Then when the you have verified that the problem is fixed connect the section of track back up to the layout.
DT
Now powered by ECoS II unit#2, RocRail
era - some time in the future when the space time continuum is disrupted and ICE 3 Trains run on the same rails as the Adler and BR18's.
Offline john black  
#5 Posted : 24 July 2008 18:44:57(UTC)
john black

United States   
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 12,139
Location: New York, NY
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Leng
<br />Unfortunately it affects all 4 passenger cars.
I'm bumped that Marklin will let this through quality control though, :(

Hi Leng Smile,

M's quality is suffering badly, nowadays - but that's another story ...
The good news is your cars are innocent Smile

M's curved turnout's geometry [xx(] is notorious for trouble ever since, nobody can change this.
My best advice - get rid of them and use regular turnouts. No problems, anymore [^]

Have fun,
John

I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide

Offline steventrain  
#6 Posted : 24 July 2008 19:07:11(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,606
Location: United Kingdom
Is the wheels are Marklin 3-Rails?

I through someone else changing to 2-Rails?
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline David Dewar  
#7 Posted : 24 July 2008 22:31:42(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,343
Location: Scotland
Hi as John says try the small straight turnouts and if there is no problem with them then use them instead of the curved ones.
Somewhere on the forum there is a thread about curved turnouts which indicates problems. I have a couple on my layout which are OK but the straight ones are much more reliable.

david
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline Caplin  
#8 Posted : 25 July 2008 00:28:23(UTC)
Caplin


Joined: 23/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,497
Location: Denmark
Welcome to the forum, Leng. (Please add country to your profile wink)

I have the same set but don't recall that exact problem with the curved turnouts. I suggest that you check the wheel distance as suggested above. Here is a piece of information on wheel measurement:

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Caplin
<br />
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by DasBert33
<br />...There was a thread in here somewhere about that, with a discussion about the correct wheel distance dimensions, but I can't seem to find it. AFAIK It should be around 14.0mm for Marklin, and around 14.2mm for NEM/DC trains.
Here is one of Henrik's:

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by hxmiesa
<br />One of the reasons could be the gauge; Märklin normally needs 13.8-14.0 mm inside space between the wheels, while the DC-norm is around 14.3mm. This is the most common reason fro derailments (on switches).
I think you are spot on, thanks. I measured the distance (back to back of the bogie wheels) on both my brand new BR 64 and the old BR 01. The BR 64 measured 14,1 mm whereas the BR 01 measured only 13,6 mm. I will try to increase the distance and see what happens.


Regards,
Benny - Outsider and MFDWPL

UserPostedImage
Offline LeoArietis  
#9 Posted : 25 July 2008 02:40:12(UTC)
LeoArietis

Sweden   
Joined: 07/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 154
Location: Lindome, Sweden
Wheel-distance should be exactly 14.0 mm between the flanges. Get a proper tool for measuring, a regular ruler wont be exact enough nor will your unaided eye.

If problem still occurs despite correct wheel-distance, try to locate wich puko is causing the short, then bend that puko slightly (barely noticable) with flat pliers.
Current layout:
http://www.svensktmjforu.../index.php?topic=10990.0
The former project:
http://www.svensktmjforu...forum_posts.asp?TID=1097
With Pictures and trackplans, but in Swedish
Transitation-curves in C-track:
https://www.marklin-user...9-on-75-cm.aspx#post9281
Offline mike c  
#10 Posted : 25 July 2008 07:53:53(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,899
Location: Montreal, QC
Hello,

I had a similar problem with the curved turnouts from my 29859 Set. They were exchanged by the dealer and I have not had a problem since.

Have you pinpointed the exact spot where the short is occurring?
Are the sparks visible on the outer or inner side of the coach? (towards the outside or inside of the layout/curve)
Are the sparks from the outside or inside of the axle? (underneath the coach or on the side)
Once you have located the spot and it turns out to be a particular stud, you can try to bend that stud further away from the rail so that it does not contact the wheel.

I find it rather strange that this is occurring with only the four green coaches and not with the freight cars as they all likely have the same axles/wheelsets.

Do you have any cars/coaches other than those from the start set?
If yes, do they have the same problem?

I am not 100% sure if I understand what you mean by merged end. Do you mean going from one of the dual tracks to the oval or going from the oval to the inner or outer passing track/station?

Does the problem occur in both directions? (entering or exiting the switch).

From what I think I understand, you are having a problem on the inside of the train when the train is on the outer track. Furthermore, the same problem occurs (reversed) on either switchtrack. Is that correct?

If the train is moving at speed, a spark may occur. If the train is moving slowly, this would result in a longer short circuit, possibly slowing or stopping the train and causing the CS to reset.

What speed (%) is your train moving?

One thing that you could try is to swap the wheelset from one of the coaches with one of the freight cars and see if the problem moves with the wheelsets.

Regards

Mike C
Offline Leng  
#11 Posted : 25 July 2008 08:04:33(UTC)
Leng


Joined: 24/07/2008(UTC)
Posts: 5
Location: ,
Hello! Many thanks for the replies.

(@Caplin - I'm from Singapore.) I brought the starter set during my recent trip to Amsterdam - fantastic city! :)

Yesterday I put a small piece of tape over the centre power puko and no more sparks. Tonight I'll check the distance between the wheels and report back.

How do I adjust the wheel spacing if it is off? Do I need specialised tools like those mentioned in this article?
http://www.trainsahead.com/wheel_assembly.htm

- Leng

Offline steventrain  
#12 Posted : 25 July 2008 10:30:23(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,606
Location: United Kingdom
Welcome to the forum, Leng.Smile


Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline Leng  
#13 Posted : 25 July 2008 20:27:47(UTC)
Leng


Joined: 24/07/2008(UTC)
Posts: 5
Location: ,
Well, I've measured the distance bet wheels on all the 4 passenger cars, and all are right on at 14mm, so that's that.

Hi Mike C, I'm pretty much on my own here since I'd brought the starter set in Amsterdam. It'll be a long process to do an exchange :(

I've located the location of the sparks. It happens on the inner front wheel (towards centre of oval), on the inner surface (under the car).

Your understanding is correct, it only happens when the car goes from the dual tracks to the oval, *and* only when the car is travelling from the outer track of the dual tracks. Happens with both turnouts. Speed doesn't seem to be a factor.

I'm pretty certain now it is the wheel bridging the puko and the rail as it passes over. I can just feel the wheel scraping the centre stud when I push the car by hand. I also think it is the particular length of these 4 cars (the wheels are all the same distance apart length-wise).

Looks like I'll have to try bending the puko away - frankly I'm pretty nervous about doing that!

@steventrain - thanks, I'm so glad I found this forum :)

- Leng

Offline Caplin  
#14 Posted : 26 July 2008 01:05:28(UTC)
Caplin


Joined: 23/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,497
Location: Denmark
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Leng
<br />I'm pretty certain now it is the wheel bridging the puko and the rail as it passes over. I can just feel the wheel scraping the centre stud when I push the car by hand. I also think it is the particular length of these 4 cars (the wheels are all the same distance apart length-wise).
One easy way to make sure: just place a piece of cellotape on the outside of the puko(s) in question or apply some nail polish (quick drying).

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:...continued
<br />Looks like I'll have to try bending the puko away - frankly I'm pretty nervous about doing that!
You need not to be. Pukos do not brake like glass. I have done it on a curved turnout - even too much and then bend it slightly back again - no danger. You need a pair of flat-nose pliers of suitable size to do the job.
Regards,
Benny - Outsider and MFDWPL

UserPostedImage
Offline kimballthurlow  
#15 Posted : 28 July 2008 15:16:29(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,669
Location: Brisbane, Australia
I have found this topic very useful, because I also own a 29840 starter set.
I noticed very momentary shorting on those cars (donnerbuschen) on the same turnouts, but it has never effected the operation of either the MS or CS controllers. But I will go about fixing this problem, now that it has been addressed here.
The other thing I gleaned from this topic, was the methods used to ensure insulation.
I have a lighted Rheingold skirted car set (43237/8), and I ran them tonight. The diner shorted on every points set. The slider pick-up shoe was touching the axles. Having learnt here of one remedy, I stuck a 4x4mm piece of electrical tape on each of the upper ends of the slider. Hey presto! Everything is fine.
regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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