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Offline biotechee  
#1 Posted : 24 June 2008 16:02:08(UTC)
biotechee


Joined: 04/12/2006(UTC)
Posts: 338
Location: Doylestown, PA
Hello All-

I wanted to post my situation here in the hopes that the experts can shed some light on my problems with two recent digital conversions.

First, the players in the game:

1) 3099 steamer converted with 60760 and 5 pole motor bits
2) 3448 eloc converted with Lokpilot v3.0 (has can motor)
3) 3173 BR120 converted with Lokpilot v3.0 and 5 pole motor bits

Now the problems or lack thereof:

1) 3099 w/ 60760 decoder: Tested on analog and digital circles of track- runs like a champ.

2) 3448 w/ Lokpilot: Tested on analog and digital circles- exhibits what appears to be a constant hesitation. Remember, this has a can motor, so no brushes to worry about (taking a "set" on the brushes due to operation consistently in one direction).

3) 3173 w/ Lokpilot: Tested on analog cirle only- exhibits same hesitation as the 3448. Didn't set up a digital circle, but I would have to guess the behavior would be similar.

I have no experience with reprogramming a decoder via my 6021 so I have not messed with any of the decoder settings on the 3448 or the 3173. I was originally thinking that maybe the carbon brushes were causing the hesitation, but then I realized that my 3448 does the same thing and it has a can motor.

The circle of track is clean enough to allow operation of my other analog and digital locs without any hesitation.

Since I have read that many have success with the Lokpilot, I am somewhat perplexed as to why I am having such issues. I didn't have these issues with the 3099 w/ 60760 decoder, and that motor conversion was basically the same as the 3173 conversion. The only difference is the decoder. This makes me wonder if I should not be using Lokpilots for some reason?

I look forward to everyone's advise, and my apologies for the long post.

Jim
Offline RayF  
#2 Posted : 24 June 2008 16:26:35(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,785
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Jim, Your experience is exactly the same as mine when I first started using Lokpilots. I wrote a very similar plea on the forum asking for reasons for the constant hesitation.

It turns out that the Lokpilots are soooo much more sensitive to track contact problems. Since I started using Lokpilots, I have learned to keep my track much cleaner to avoid jerky running. Even then, sometimes I despair and relegate those locos to sitting in a siding and looking pretty!

I recently got a Roco loco which is equipped with a LP2, I believe. It is my worst one by far.

Don't worry, Jim, you are not alone!

Ray
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline biotechee  
#3 Posted : 24 June 2008 17:13:45(UTC)
biotechee


Joined: 04/12/2006(UTC)
Posts: 338
Location: Doylestown, PA
Thanks Ray... If that's the case, then I don't think I want to use Lokpilots anymore. Pity as I have an unused one sitting in my stock pile waiting. Couple this with Marklin's wonderful marketing scheme of producing the 60760 in limited run batches with hints of possibly not making them again and a robust low-cost decoder appears to be evolving into a rarity.
Offline rschaffr  
#4 Posted : 24 June 2008 17:16:53(UTC)
rschaffr

United States   
Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC)
Posts: 5,170
Location: Southern New Jersey, USA
Jim:

I have not had that problem with the LokPilots. I have not found the LoPi any more sensitive to track conditions than other decoders. I have had a problem with "surging" at road speeds. This was corrected based on a suggestion from Guus to alter the CV's. (see https://www.marklin-user...lt.aspx?g=posts&t=10061)
-Ron
Digital, Epoch IV-V(K-track/IB), Epoch III(C-track/6021/6036/6051)
http://www.sem-co.com/~rschaffr/trains/trains.html
Offline biotechee  
#5 Posted : 24 June 2008 17:32:48(UTC)
biotechee


Joined: 04/12/2006(UTC)
Posts: 338
Location: Doylestown, PA
Ron-

I'll add a ground to the driven bogie and see if that helps. Also, I guess I can start experimenting with the CVs if I set up my digital circle for testing.

I assume I can adjust CV via the 6021?

Jim
Offline rschaffr  
#6 Posted : 24 June 2008 17:36:40(UTC)
rschaffr

United States   
Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC)
Posts: 5,170
Location: Southern New Jersey, USA
I believe you can, although I have never tried it. I use a LokProgrammer. It was a good investment. Better grounding is always a good idea regardless of the decoder. I generally install a wire attached directly to the grounding bogie, to the lok frame and to the motor frame when I do my conversions.
-Ron
Digital, Epoch IV-V(K-track/IB), Epoch III(C-track/6021/6036/6051)
http://www.sem-co.com/~rschaffr/trains/trains.html
Offline tekin65  
#7 Posted : 24 June 2008 17:40:10(UTC)
tekin65

Turkey   
Joined: 11/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,151
Location: istanbul,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by RayPayas
<br />It turns out that the Lokpilots are soooo much more sensitive to track contact problems.


Ray hi,

I'm using Lokpilot often in conversions with no problems as such. Strange enough I have also had very very dirty tracks but no problems with Lokpilot. Interesting ...

Could there be a connection problem in solders or something?

Cem.
3 rail: C-track with CS2 2 rail: Trix C-track with Trix MS - K.Bay., DRG, DR, DB, SBB, TCDD

Now all eras but no ICE

My loco inventory for the interested
Offline RayF  
#8 Posted : 24 June 2008 18:51:06(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,785
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Not a connection problem. The extra sensitivity to dirty tracks has been commented before in other posts. The "alzheimers effect" is particularly annoying.

To be fair, the LP3 is much better than the LP2, and the effect is much less noticeable.

Extra grounding, clean tracks, etc, do help to eliminate the problem, but you don't need any of that with a 6080, delta, 6090, or 60901. They just drive straight through places where the LP's stop dead.

Ray
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline tekin65  
#9 Posted : 24 June 2008 21:54:59(UTC)
tekin65

Turkey   
Joined: 11/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,151
Location: istanbul,
Hýmmm,

Ok, duefully noted. Thanks.

Cem.
3 rail: C-track with CS2 2 rail: Trix C-track with Trix MS - K.Bay., DRG, DR, DB, SBB, TCDD

Now all eras but no ICE

My loco inventory for the interested
Offline tonyfh  
#10 Posted : 25 June 2008 11:47:27(UTC)
tonyfh


Joined: 17/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 100
Location: Netherlands
Hello All,

In case clean track and wheels don't solve the problem, also check the cleanliness of the axle bushes. I have a few loks that had paint in the axle bushes or hardened oil, after removing this paint or oil, the loks ran much better.

Also important is the oil you use to lubricate the axles, for example the Faller oil hardens and gave me a lot of problems. The original M* oil is much better. Also good, in my experience, is Atlas conduct a lube and LGB 50019.

And of course a good run in of the lok also helps.

Succes, Tony.
Offline biotechee  
#11 Posted : 25 June 2008 15:24:02(UTC)
biotechee


Joined: 04/12/2006(UTC)
Posts: 338
Location: Doylestown, PA
Part of the problem with both LP3 decoder installs was the locs ran just fine before the conversion- no hesitation, or stuttering at all.

Keep in mind, the loc does not stop per se, it just slows for a very brief moment and then speeds back up. This cycle repeats no matter what speed- it is of course harder to detect when at full speed, and quite obvious at lower speeds.

I'll still try the extra ground, but I suspect it has to do with decoder settings more so than anything.
Offline rschaffr  
#12 Posted : 25 June 2008 16:00:05(UTC)
rschaffr

United States   
Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC)
Posts: 5,170
Location: Southern New Jersey, USA
Jim: Ok...that is what I described as "surging" but mine only did it at road speeds...it ran fine at slow speeds. Guus' CV suggestions cured it to almost unnoticeable (it is still there slightly but is now acceptable.)
-Ron
Digital, Epoch IV-V(K-track/IB), Epoch III(C-track/6021/6036/6051)
http://www.sem-co.com/~rschaffr/trains/trains.html
Offline Robhall77  
#13 Posted : 24 May 2020 18:05:04(UTC)
Robhall77

United Kingdom   
Joined: 06/10/2016(UTC)
Posts: 3
Location: England, Bedhampton
I am in the process of converting a Marklin 3556 crocodile locomotive to digital. I am using a 60941 motor upgrade and a 60982 controller. It all seems pretty straight forward though I have an issue with lighting in the original Swiss mode. The locomotive has two circuit boards. A main controller board and a small one that seems to make the lighting work as per the Swiss setup. Can anybody with experience of this conversion let me know how it should be done. I am coming to the conclusion that the small board should be retained. Any advice welcomed
Thanks,
Rob
Offline JohnjeanB  
#14 Posted : 24 May 2020 19:16:21(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,857
Location: Paris, France
Hi Rob
Welcome to the forum.

For the Swiss lighting, if you have a CS2 or CS3 or similar to program your 60982 you can program one exit (AUX 1) for the rear light on front side and another (AUX 2) for rear light on the rear side.
Otherwise, you may use a diode in series with each extra front light so that it turn on in both directions when the other front headlights are on.
I did digitalize a 3015 Crocodile but because of the simplified decoder I used, I left the "other" front light permanently illuminated

Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
Offline Robhall77  
#15 Posted : 24 May 2020 22:22:12(UTC)
Robhall77

United Kingdom   
Joined: 06/10/2016(UTC)
Posts: 3
Location: England, Bedhampton
Hi Jean,
Thanks for the welcome.

I liked your reply and understand now the possibilities of the aux functions. Appreciated.
My Marklin railway is now 74 years old in essence and seldom in use to date. My father got it in Germany in 1947. Because of the Covid 19 debacle, I have resurrected it with plans for the future. It still works perfectly. I have got some bits and pieces over time one of the items being the 3556. It is a lovely locomotive but felt an update coming on including digitisation and a full digital controller.
I would like to keep the way the lights work at present using the digitised locomotive on an analogue circuit. I have two very old analogue locomotives. These too work absolutely perfectly.
Hence my question as to how the front to rear light switching was accomplished in the 3556. I will have to go the full digital route much sooner than planned.

Your layout looks fabulous. Thanks for sharing your information with me.

Cheers indeed,

Rob
Offline JohnjeanB  
#16 Posted : 24 May 2020 22:57:48(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,857
Location: Paris, France
Hi Rob
Thanks for liking my {previous} layout.
I don't have the 3656 (5 star analogue Ce 6/8 green, made from 1983 until late 1980, I think). The closest I have is a 3352 (analogue Ce 6/8 brown, metal case Swiss light change, 2 bulbs at each end with light ducks).
The analogue Ce 6/8 were wired so that at each end, the bulb illuminating the lower right light were permanently on (connected to track voltage, while the other bulb (illuminating the left and top lights were in series with the inductor coil so that only the front-looking side would be illuminated.

Note: this results in a slightly brighter illumination of the lower right light (the one permanently illuminated)

This is my layout now (digital and PC-controlled thanks to Rocrail). The one you have seen was a floor train

Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
Offline river6109  
#17 Posted : 25 May 2020 03:42:10(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,854
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: biotechee Go to Quoted Post
Part of the problem with both LP3 decoder installs was the locs ran just fine before the conversion- no hesitation, or stuttering at all.

Keep in mind, the loc does not stop per se, it just slows for a very brief moment and then speeds back up. This cycle repeats no matter what speed- it is of course harder to detect when at full speed, and quite obvious at lower speeds.

I'll still try the extra ground, but I suspect it has to do with decoder settings more so than anything.


ESU lokpilots are designed for different motors but you have to program them (lok programmer) and noticing one of your loco has a can motor this would be the reason for your dilemma, another problem is with Märklin locos especially it depends how old they are and what condition they have been stored, the bogie contact can also be a problem, the best way to find out is take the bogie off from the chassis and you may notice some black spots on the chassis, clean them. Märklin again tried to fix this problem with oxidation of two different metal and some locos had a nickle plated spring added between the bogie and the chassis., another spot is, the motor should have a brown wire coming from it (ground)

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Robhall77  
#18 Posted : 25 May 2020 16:17:46(UTC)
Robhall77

United Kingdom   
Joined: 06/10/2016(UTC)
Posts: 3
Location: England, Bedhampton
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Rob
Thanks for liking my {previous} layout.
I don't have the 3656 (5 star analogue Ce 6/8 green, made from 1983 until late 1980, I think). The closest I have is a 3352 (analogue Ce 6/8 brown, metal case Swiss light change, 2 bulbs at each end with light ducks).
The analogue Ce 6/8 were wired so that at each end, the bulb illuminating the lower right light were permanently on (connected to track voltage, while the other bulb (illuminating the left and top lights were in series with the inductor coil so that only the front-looking side would be illuminated.

Note: this results in a slightly brighter illumination of the lower right light (the one permanently illuminated)

This is my layout now (digital and PC-controlled thanks to Rocrail). The one you have seen was a floor train

Cheers
Jean


HI Jean,

Your description of the Ce 6/8 wiring was very informative in that the light fittings at either end of the locomotives appear to be exactly what my Crocodile has. And appears to work in a similar way. The difference seems to be the little circuit board separate from the controller board which from its wiring looks to be dedicated to the lights and the change over with direction change. I will keep it in the revised wiring. Bottom left light on permanently and other two shown at the end in direction of travel. Thanks for your helpful description of your locomotive.

The video you linked to was very interesting. Is your layout controlled from a computer. Looks like there were a lot of things going on in quite a sophisticated sequence. The integration of the rail layout with a complex road layout was also very impressive.

Thanks again for your information.

Regards

Rob
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