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morsing		#1 Posted : 15 December 2024 08:22:29(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 619 Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire		Good morning, I am setting up my layout again but have an odd problem with an S88 DC module. It measures the correct voltage on the center rail but as soon as a train enters the rails the voltage drops and the train powers off. I have tried different outputs. What could cause this? Is it faulty or is there another (rectifiable) problem? Regards, Henrik
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PeFu		#2 Posted : 15 December 2024 09:54:42(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC) Posts: 1,286		Is this an individual issue on a type of S88 module you are familiar with, or is this the first time you are using this type of S88 module? How have you connected to tracks, module and CSx? From your signature, it seems as if you are using C tracks. Generally, S88 AC modules (60881j are used for C tracks. Do you have a specific reason for using a S88 DC module?
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Goofy		#3 Posted : 15 December 2024 11:49:47(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 9,273		Originally Posted by: morsing Good morning, I am setting up my layout again but have an odd problem with an S88 DC module. It measures the correct voltage on the center rail but as soon as a train enters the rails the voltage drops and the train powers off. I have tried different outputs. What could cause this? Is it faulty or is there another (rectifiable) problem? Regards, Henrik Generally does S88 DC only works for the two rail system with L88 as general feed (link S88).
		H0 DCC = Digital Command Control
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morsing		#4 Posted : 15 December 2024 12:00:15(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 619 Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire		Originally Posted by: PeFu Is this an individual issue on a type of S88 module you are familiar with, or is this the first time you are using this type of S88 module? Hi, This layout was previously up and running, using five S88 DCs and one S88 AC. It has been disassembled and sitting in a garage for four years. Originally Posted by: PeFu How have you connected to tracks, module and CSx? I don't think the module needs to be connected to the CS3 to power the track. Ground on the module is connected to a power block, output to the center rail on the rail and it is connected via ethernet to the CS3. Originally Posted by: PeFu From your signature, it seems as if you are using C tracks. Generally, S88 AC modules (60881j are used for C tracks. Do you have a specific reason for using a S88 DC module? Yes,S88 DC is far better for 3-rail. Please see posts #10 & #11 in the below thread: https://www.marklin-user...t45384-Faulty-S88-module Regards, Henrik Morsing
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morsing		#5 Posted : 15 December 2024 12:03:32(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 619 Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire		Originally Posted by: Goofy Generally does S88 DC only works for the two rail system with L88 as general feed (link S88). Incorrect.
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morsing		#6 Posted : 15 December 2024 12:23:08(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 619 Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire		What's actually a bit weird is that other sensor sections on the same half of the module work fine but I moved the faulty section in question to another output and it still doesn't work. I'm beginning to suspect a half-short somewhere when the train is on that section of the track. Regards, Henrik
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marklinist5999		#7 Posted : 15 December 2024 13:17:43(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 3,865 Location: Michigan, Troy		The CS 3 plus recommendation is the AC S-88, correct?
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morsing		#8 Posted : 15 December 2024 14:32:57(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 619 Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire		Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 The CS 3 plus recommendation is the AC S-88, correct? Not correct, see below diagram, it just says 60881/60882: Not sure why the discussion has gone in this direction...
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morsing		#9 Posted : 15 December 2024 14:36:11(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 619 Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire		Originally Posted by: Goofy Generally does S88 DC only works for the two rail system with L88 as general feed (link S88). Sorry, it's been some years since I played around with all this. You are correct about the L88 (the CS3+ has it built in, which is why I forgot this is sometimes needed). Not sure how this relates to my problem though. You are however, completely incorrect that the DC only works for 2-rail. Explain why that would be the case? Either way, it works fine on my layout apart from this one track section. Still not very relevant to my question...
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Goofy		#10 Posted : 15 December 2024 16:06:38(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 9,273		Originally Posted by: morsing Originally Posted by: Goofy Generally does S88 DC only works for the two rail system with L88 as general feed (link S88). Sorry, it's been some years since I played around with all this. You are correct about the L88 (the CS3+ has it built in, which is why I forgot this is sometimes needed). Not sure how this relates to my problem though. You are however, completely incorrect that the DC only works for 2-rail. Explain why that would be the case? Either way, it works fine on my layout apart from this one track section. Still not very relevant to my question... To read the manual of the S88 DC it does shows only two rail system how to connect the rail and use two rail digital locomotive. There are no information about Märklin tracks, so you have to explain how the hell did you use S88 DC for the Märklin tracks!?? Do you even have pictures of the layout you have by use S88 DC? If you post the pics maybe we can see what the problem are.
		H0 DCC = Digital Command Control
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morsing		#11 Posted : 15 December 2024 16:31:21(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 619 Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire		Originally Posted by: Goofy To read the manual of the S88 DC it does shows only two rail system how to connect the rail and use two rail digital locomotive. There are no information about Märklin tracks, so you have to explain how the hell did you use S88 DC for the Märklin tracks!?? Do you even have pictures of the layout you have by use S88 DC? If you post the pics maybe we can see what the problem are. I am beginning to regret I asked... I think if you understood how an S88 DC worked you wouldn't have a problem understanding using it on 3-rail. The module has no knowledge of what you connect it to, it just reports back if it senses a current or not. It is still way better using a DC on 3-rail compared to the AC module. As I have said, it works absolutely fine, my question is *not* how to use it or set it up. Either way, I think the next step is to check the section of rail without it being connected to anything else.
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Goofy		#12 Posted : 15 December 2024 17:53:23(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 9,273		I believe you have wrong! S88 DC are ONLY for the two rail tracks. To read the manual of the S88 DC it shows only two rail system and if Märklin did wanted they could have present even for the Märklin tracks but it does not shows and saying about it.
		H0 DCC = Digital Command Control
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morsing		#13 Posted : 15 December 2024 18:07:29(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 619 Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire		Originally Posted by: Goofy I believe you have wrong! S88 DC are ONLY for the two rail tracks. To read the manual of the S88 DC it shows only two rail system and if Märklin did wanted they could have present even for the Märklin tracks but it does not shows and saying about it. So if I'm so wrong, how come it worked for several years? I got you there, didn't I...
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rhfil		#14 Posted : 15 December 2024 18:45:05(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC) Posts: 674 Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth		So it still works or not?
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Purellum		#15 Posted : 15 December 2024 18:55:52(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse		Originally Posted by: Goofy I believe you have wrong! S88 DC are ONLY for the two rail tracks. To read the manual of the S88 DC it shows only two rail system and if Märklin did wanted they could have present even for the Märklin tracks but it does not shows and saying about it. Which part of "Current sensor" don't you understand? The manual says nothing about the 60882 being only for 2 rail or not to be used on 3-rail In a lot of situations it's much better to use current sensors, since you then have "ground" on both rails; if you use the 60881 you only have "ground" on one rail Per.
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Purellum		#16 Posted : 15 December 2024 18:58:03(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse		Originally Posted by: morsing I'm beginning to suspect a half-short somewhere when the train is on that section of the track. Me too Per.
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morsing		#17 Posted : 15 December 2024 19:24:25(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 619 Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire		Originally Posted by: rhfil So it still works or not? That one section does not.
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morsing		#18 Posted : 15 December 2024 19:26:09(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 619 Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire		Originally Posted by: Purellum Originally Posted by: morsing I'm beginning to suspect a half-short somewhere when the train is on that section of the track. Me too Per. Thanks Per for being the voice of reason
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marklinist5999		#19 Posted : 15 December 2024 19:34:19(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 3,865 Location: Michigan, Troy		One final thought is that if it is only the one contact not working, and others assigned to the same S-88 do, it's not a problem with the decoder feedback but the one contact track. Does it change from grey to yellow in your screen when a train goes over it? If so, you have it in the system correctly. If not, reprogram that contact into the controller. Have you checked the wiring and terminal connectors?
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Bent		#20 Posted : 15 December 2024 21:42:51(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/11/2004(UTC) Posts: 20 Location: Copenhagen,		Originally Posted by: morsing I am setting up my layout again but have an odd problem with an S88 DC module. It measures the correct voltage on the center rail but as soon as a train enters the rails the voltage drops and the train powers off. I have tried different outputs. What could cause this? Is it faulty or is there another (rectifiable) problem? Hi Henrik I have had similar issues with my S88 feedback. The root cause have been either a small metal piece, or a bad wire connection from the section back to the S88. I also in some cases, had to clean the wheels, but this can not be the issue in your case, and was not related to a single section. Regards Bent
		Cheers, Bent
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bph		#21 Posted : 15 December 2024 22:29:57(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC) Posts: 1,144		Originally Posted by: Purellum Originally Posted by: Goofy I believe you have wrong! S88 DC are ONLY for the two rail tracks. To read the manual of the S88 DC it shows only two rail system and if Märklin did wanted they could have present even for the Märklin tracks but it does not shows and saying about it. Which part of "Current sensor" don't you understand? The manual says nothing about the 60882 being only for 2 rail or not to be used on 3-rail In a lot of situations it's much better to use current sensors, since you then have "ground" on both rails; if you use the 60881 you only have "ground" on one rail Per. Märklin actually writes that the 60882 also works on 3-rail. ref "Technik Tipp 320" quote from the s88 DC description: "Logically, however, it also works with centre conductor systems".("Er funktioniert aber logischerweise auch bei Mittelleiteranlagen") Märklin should have included this information in the manuals to avoid confusion.
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morsing		#22 Posted : 16 December 2024 10:24:46(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 619 Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire		Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 One final thought is that if it is only the one contact not working, and others assigned to the same S-88 do, it's not a problem with the decoder feedback but the one contact track. Does it change from grey to yellow in your screen when a train goes over it? If so, you have it in the system correctly. If not, reprogram that contact into the controller. Have you checked the wiring and terminal connectors? Hi, I'm only just putting this all back up and was only having a quick look around the central station. I think I remember where the sensors are defined, just need to have a look. But I have moved some wires as a lot of things were disconnected, so might have to redefine it. I will check the wiring again. If I disconnect it from the module I could measure the resistance to the centre studs. Thanks
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morsing		#23 Posted : 16 December 2024 10:27:56(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 619 Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire		Originally Posted by: bph Märklin actually writes that the 60882 also works on 3-rail. ref "Technik Tipp 320" quote from the s88 DC description: "Logically, however, it also works with centre conductor systems".("Er funktioniert aber logischerweise auch bei Mittelleiteranlagen") Märklin should have included this information in the manuals to avoid confusion. Good find, I couldn't actually find that. However, all the module does is measure current running through a train. 2- or 3-rail makes no difference regardless of what Marklin says and and the DC module is IMO a much more elegant way of sensing trains.
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PeFu		#24 Posted : 16 December 2024 14:09:16(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC) Posts: 1,286		Originally Posted by: morsing However, all the module does is measure current running through a train. 2- or 3-rail makes no difference regardless of what Marklin says and and the DC module is IMO a much more elegant way of sensing trains. An elegant way of sensing engines, not trains. I used this method when I was on M tracks, and for tworailers it’s almost mandatory. But I would guess more than 99 % of hobbyists on C or K tracks are using the ”AC” method, as it provides full train detection. And using the ”diode trick”, you still have ground on both outer rails. Pretty elegant!
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morsing		#25 Posted : 16 December 2024 15:02:18(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 619 Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire		Originally Posted by: PeFu An elegant way of sensing engines, not trains. I used this method when I was on M tracks, and for tworailers it’s almost mandatory. But I would guess more than 99 % of hobbyists on C or K tracks are using the ”AC” method, as it provides full train detection. And using the ”diode trick”, you still have ground on both outer rails. Pretty elegant! I hadn't thought of that!
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KennethH		#26 Posted : 23 December 2024 04:29:00(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/12/2024(UTC) Posts: 2 Location: Illinois, Saint Charles		Hi, are you using s88 DC for three rail AC contact track detection where the contact track is isolated from the rest of the system until the train runs over it, or for reed switch style detection? We have ended up with an s88 DC and are trying to do contact track detection but are having issues with detection. Likely need to switch to s88 AC, but am curious about what you are doing. Oh, I just looked at your other posts. So you are running the power line into an isolated section of track, and it’s detecting when a train is pulling current in that section. That’s an interesting approach, I see how it can work but are there limits to the current output of each s88 dc output? This doesn’t seem to be the design intent for ac systems but I understand why it would work. Hmm
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morsing		#27 Posted : 23 December 2024 10:00:05(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 619 Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire		Originally Posted by: KennethH Hi, are you using s88 DC for three rail AC contact track detection where the contact track is isolated from the rest of the system until the train runs over it, or for reed switch style detection? We have ended up with an s88 DC and are trying to do contact track detection but are having issues with detection. Likely need to switch to s88 AC, but am curious about what you are doing. Oh, I just looked at your other posts. So you are running the power line into an isolated section of track, and it’s detecting when a train is pulling current in that section. That’s an interesting approach, I see how it can work but are there limits to the current output of each s88 dc output? This doesn’t seem to be the design intent for ac systems but I understand why it would work. Hmm Hi, I don't really understand why everyone is so confused by this. It is *exactly* what this module was designed for. It wasn't designed for anything else but this. Really, it wasn't. Anyway, realised yesterday I had missed an isolator on one of the track connectors and thought for a second that was the problem, but it wasn't. I measured everything on the track and it all seems fine, no shorts or anything. Moved the lead to the other half of the module, same. Might have to try a different modul all together. After four years, it is also a bit tricky to look at the CS3, it's not exactly intuitive. I did a "Discovery" and it found all the S88s but despite this, no contact tracks in the CS3 reacts when a train goes over it. *This is a separate issue* to the bit of track where the train dies. Not related. Just saying that, someone suggested checking if the module at least detects the train, but nothing currently detects anything. Regards, Henrik Morsing
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marklinist5999		#28 Posted : 24 December 2024 10:18:00(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 3,865 Location: Michigan, Troy		You cluck and drag the contact track icon from the articles menu to the position on the layout you want it. Am I wrong?
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morsing		#29 Posted : 24 December 2024 11:38:12(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 619 Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire		Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 You cluck and drag the contact track icon from the articles menu to the position on the layout you want it. Am I wrong? From memory, I believe that is correct. If this is a comment to what I said above though, I don't believe the contact tracks need to be on a "map" to activate. You can just look at them in the device list.
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morsing		#30 Posted : 24 December 2024 11:40:17(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 619 Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire		I found the problem, my bad. Turns out I have one S88 AC module for detecting freight cars being reversed into sidings, and I had accidentally connected this track to the AC module. Moved it to an S88 DC and it works fine now. Not always easy when the modules are mounted up-side-down under the boards and I'm not wearing my reading glasses.
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BenP		#31 Posted : 24 December 2024 15:58:11(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 477 Location: USA		Read this thread with interest and some confusion. I use multiple s88 ac for ground sensing. What is the advantage of current sensing over ground sensing? Is it just the need for special feedback track in ground sensing? Ben
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morsing		#32 Posted : 24 December 2024 17:59:09(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 619 Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire		Originally Posted by: BenP Read this thread with interest and some confusion. I use multiple s88 ac for ground sensing. What is the advantage of current sensing over ground sensing? Is it just the need for special feedback track in ground sensing? Ben It's simpler, more elegant, and more reliable. If a train is powered on the track, it will be sensed. I know you have to be unlucky, but it is technically possible for a train to run over a track section and not ground the two rails. I just find it easier to do it this way as well, less fiddling.
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pederbc		#33 Posted : 25 December 2024 01:15:24(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 11/06/2007(UTC) Posts: 207 Location: Eslöv, Sweden		Hi Ben, Current sensing is mostly used by 2-rail system and I can’t see any advantage if using 3-rail. Current sensing in 3-rail can only sense where the slider (i e the engine) and can’t detect the cars, so if the train is going backwards, lets say into an endtrack there is no sensing until the engine comes in to the track. Peder
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rhfil		#34 Posted : 27 December 2024 17:47:33(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC) Posts: 674 Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth		Our club - ETE-ENE has a large layout, 17' X 34' with five or six contact tracks and Marklin braking modules. We use ground rail contacts to activate the blocks and controls. The advantage of ground sensing over current sensing is that eveyr car with ac wheels activates ground sensing while only cars with sliders will activate current sensing. In our operations we often have very long consists. If we used current sensing it might be possible for a consist powered by an engine with a long start-up lag to get going very slowly and leave the sensing area so a consist coming up behind might operate as if the block is clear. That would not have happened with our ground sensing as the block would not appear as clear until the last ac car had cleared the bloc.
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BenP		#35 Posted : 27 December 2024 20:01:21(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 477 Location: USA		Originally Posted by: rhfil Our club - ETE-ENE has a large layout, 17' X 34' with five or six contact tracks and Marklin braking modules. We use ground rail contacts to activate the blocks and controls. The advantage of ground sensing over current sensing is that eveyr car with ac wheels activates ground sensing while only cars with sliders will activate current sensing. In our operations we often have very long consists. If we used current sensing it might be possible for a consist powered by an engine with a long start-up lag to get going very slowly and leave the sensing area so a consist coming up behind might operate as if the block is clear. That would not have happened with our ground sensing as the block would not appear as clear until the last ac car had cleared the bloc. Sounds like that club layout is primed for PC control, like Rocrail. removing need for break modules and passive (v active) signals. Also, managing multiple trains on single loop track. I may know a suitably informed member of that club 😎.
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morsing		#36 Posted : 03 January 2025 18:08:03(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 619 Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire		Originally Posted by: pederbc Hi Ben, Current sensing is mostly used by 2-rail system and I can’t see any advantage if using 3-rail. But I can, and that's all I care about. Originally Posted by: pederbc Current sensing in 3-rail can only sense where the slider (i e the engine) and can’t detect the cars, so if the train is going backwards, lets say into an endtrack there is no sensing until the engine comes in to the track. Peder I made a pact with myself when I set up this layout, to never reverse freight trains at high speed down mainlines, but whatever floats your boat
		----- Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements! Marklin C-track + CS3+ 12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
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1 user liked this useful post by morsing		marklinist5999
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morsing		#37 Posted : 03 January 2025 18:23:48(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 619 Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire		Originally Posted by: rhfil Our club - ETE-ENE has a large layout, 17' X 34' with five or six contact tracks and Marklin braking modules. We use ground rail contacts to activate the blocks and controls. The advantage of ground sensing over current sensing is that eveyr car with ac wheels activates ground sensing while only cars with sliders will activate current sensing. In our operations we often have very long consists. If we used current sensing it might be possible for a consist powered by an engine with a long start-up lag to get going very slowly and leave the sensing area so a consist coming up behind might operate as if the block is clear. That would not have happened with our ground sensing as the block would not appear as clear until the last ac car had cleared the bloc. My blocks don't clear until the next one is fully occupied, so not a problem. And trains are never allowed to go into blocks that can't contain them.
		----- Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements! Marklin C-track + CS3+ 12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
		WWW
2 users liked this useful post by morsing		dickinsonj, marklinist5999
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