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Offline Goofy  
#1 Posted : 09 November 2024 11:32:58(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,273
Hello!
I did start thinking about if Märklin will change up digital system with difference way so i did notice a big changed if this will be happens.
A digital black box with mfx,MM2 and DCC fully functional same control like CS3 but use device control as cab control instead.
In the latest time the electronic has become expensive by produce digital system too.
This topic is just because you members here do write more control via PC and tablets/mobil phones.
Is it possible that Märklin do start to save money by change the digital system as better solution to save economy based way?
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Pasquiles  
#2 Posted : 09 November 2024 12:43:27(UTC)
Pasquiles

Luxembourg   
Joined: 04/06/2019(UTC)
Posts: 55
Location: Luxembourg, Luxembourg
Last year Märklin released the new MS. And we got this year the new software version 2.5 for CS3, for which they have just published books.

So I highly doubt that we are getting something new in 2025.
Offline kimballthurlow  
#3 Posted : 09 November 2024 22:48:47(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,762
Location: Brisbane, Australia
In the world of electronics the user has to decide on the economics of using one thing or another.
Everything costs money.

You are paying €4-500 for a locomotive, and you will want more than one locomotive!
Then does it matter that you pay €849 for the high end controller such as the CS3+ (60216) which can control hundreds of locomotives and other things?
And the MS2/3 (60667) is a long way cheaper at €229 than the CS3.

How much money can Märklin and their customers save with a black box, without the control knobs and touch screen?

Personally I like the touch and feel of the normal type (including digital) of remote control that is custom made by Märklin for model trains.

Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline David Dewar  
#4 Posted : 10 November 2024 11:14:46(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,448
Location: Scotland
My CS3 Plus is all I need. It would be nice with a larger screen but I do not clutter my desk with a monitor or phones or any other non related railway stuff. At age 83 I understand the world has changed as has our site which now has more posts on computer equipment and software than actually driving a train using the knob on the CS3. No doubt Marklin will in time produce something for the modern world which may or may not encourage younger folk to the hobby. Meanwhile I amn happy with what we have although the cost of Locos and in particular plastic coaches is too high.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline Goofy  
#5 Posted : 10 November 2024 12:07:01(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,273
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
In the world of electronics the user has to decide on the economics of using one thing or another.
Everything costs money.

You are paying €4-500 for a locomotive, and you will want more than one locomotive!
Then does it matter that you pay €849 for the high end controller such as the CS3+ (60216) which can control hundreds of locomotives and other things?
And the MS2/3 (60667) is a long way cheaper at €229 than the CS3.

How much money can Märklin and their customers save with a black box, without the control knobs and touch screen?

Personally I like the touch and feel of the normal type (including digital) of remote control that is custom made by Märklin for model trains.

Kimball


MS2 and MS WLAN are strongly limited in function if you compare with Rocos Z21 black box.
So to see a Märklin black box and use other device (mobil phone or tablet) as cab control make also fun of play.
To produce electronic with PCB has become expensive but also touch screen display cost.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline Copenhagen  
#6 Posted : 10 November 2024 13:06:39(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 493
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
I agree with Kimball. What is of importance to Marklin is getting a revenue, an income, a profit and have a healthy economy. It's not their main priority to make users and consumers save as much money as possible... and it shouldn't be either.
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Offline marklinist5999  
#7 Posted : 10 November 2024 13:57:53(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,868
Location: Michigan, Troy
Yep, that's basically it. Hobbies in general aren't considered commodities nor a necessity, so are usually more expensive to produce and purchase. Of course there are always entry level and budget items for newcomer's, and limited funds. I started with Athearn anbd Bachmann. Had I lost interest, I wouldn't have spent much.
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Offline Goofy  
#8 Posted : 15 November 2024 08:12:22(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,273
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post
I agree with Kimball. What is of importance to Marklin is getting a revenue, an income, a profit and have a healthy economy. It's not their main priority to make users and consumers save as much money as possible... and it shouldn't be either.


Märklins priority are customer and most of them have middle economic.
Many of them are Märklinist and lot of them do not use same digital system like CS3.
There are other manufacture who produce cheaper digital system like Rocos Z21.
Too expensive digital system scares away customer.
Ecos do have power feeder follow with digital system as package.
Do Märklin even do that?
If i did own factory Märklin i would give customer with better cheaper way and it´s a black box with fully same functional as CS3 but without screen window and cab control.
Of course also with power feeder in the same package.
Cool
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline jonas_sthlm  
#9 Posted : 15 November 2024 08:54:37(UTC)
jonas_sthlm

Sweden   
Joined: 12/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 977
Location: Stockholm, Södermalm
It would likely be better if they put a little more effort into having a dialogue with the users about what was needed in the current CS3. Additionally, they should aim to translate things more accurately. There's still a significant number of issues, particularly with the graphical interface on mobile devices. So they should focus more on improving what they already have instead. MSW must have been an expensive and rather outdated idea.

It feels like there's a lack of imagination among the Göppingen team.
Collecting Swedish items since the 80s / CS3+ / MSW / 60175 Booster / 60881 S88 AC / TC10 Gold / K, C-Tracks / Favorites Class Ra / modelltag.se - Forum modelltag.se - Facebook modelltag.se - YouTube
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Offline Copenhagen  
#10 Posted : 15 November 2024 11:10:52(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 493
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
To Goofy:
"If i did own factory Märklin i would give customer with better cheaper way and it´s a black box with fully same functional as CS3 but without screen window and cab control." Running Märklin isn't simple and easy: "On 4 February 2009 Märklin filed for insolvency at the Göppingen municipal court. A year and a day later, on 5 February 2010, Märklin announced a return to profitability."
One could also look at what happened with Swedish owned companies like Volvo and Saab.

So the fact that Ecos comes with a power supply and the CS3 doesn't (but you have to buy one separately) makes a huge difference in your opinion? They are both still quite costly.
Märklin has the cheap Mobile Stations and the two expensive CS3 models. Would something in the price range in between make sense? Who knows? (I don't). It could be costly and risky for Märklin to go that route.

"Märklins priority are customer and most of them have middle economic."
To say that their "priority is the customer" doesn't really say anything. Priority in what sense? It's not a charity organisation.

The "most of them have middle economic" thing is the reason why Märklin has entry level models and cheap starter sets with everything in the box. Still, the hobby is, and has always been, crazy expensive. And still, Märklin seems to be making good sales with the top end stuff also.
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Offline Goofy  
#11 Posted : 15 November 2024 13:35:54(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,273
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post
To Goofy:
"If i did own factory Märklin i would give customer with better cheaper way and it´s a black box with fully same functional as CS3 but without screen window and cab control." Running Märklin isn't simple and easy: "On 4 February 2009 Märklin filed for insolvency at the Göppingen municipal court. A year and a day later, on 5 February 2010, Märklin announced a return to profitability."
One could also look at what happened with Swedish owned companies like Volvo and Saab.

So the fact that Ecos comes with a power supply and the CS3 doesn't (but you have to buy one separately) makes a huge difference in your opinion? They are both still quite costly.
Märklin has the cheap Mobile Stations and the two expensive CS3 models. Would something in the price range in between make sense? Who knows? (I don't). It could be costly and risky for Märklin to go that route.

"Märklins priority are customer and most of them have middle economic."
To say that their "priority is the customer" doesn't really say anything. Priority in what sense? It's not a charity organisation.

The "most of them have middle economic" thing is the reason why Märklin has entry level models and cheap starter sets with everything in the box. Still, the hobby is, and has always been, crazy expensive. And still, Märklin seems to be making good sales with the top end stuff also.


LOL LOL LOL
Still you read here in the forum when members complain about prices of the Märklins train models.
Charity organisation supports by customer, if there is possible.
Volvo and Saab...what´s difference when they are joint stock company like other else?
I did started TS to discuss a possible by Märklin to add another digital accessories to support buyer with another way.
Do you see difference "buddy"?
Cool

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Copenhagen  
#12 Posted : 15 November 2024 14:32:55(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 493
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post
To Goofy:
"If i did own factory Märklin i would give customer with better cheaper way and it´s a black box with fully same functional as CS3 but without screen window and cab control." Running Märklin isn't simple and easy: "On 4 February 2009 Märklin filed for insolvency at the Göppingen municipal court. A year and a day later, on 5 February 2010, Märklin announced a return to profitability."
One could also look at what happened with Swedish owned companies like Volvo and Saab.

So the fact that Ecos comes with a power supply and the CS3 doesn't (but you have to buy one separately) makes a huge difference in your opinion? They are both still quite costly.
Märklin has the cheap Mobile Stations and the two expensive CS3 models. Would something in the price range in between make sense? Who knows? (I don't). It could be costly and risky for Märklin to go that route.

"Märklins priority are customer and most of them have middle economic."
To say that their "priority is the customer" doesn't really say anything. Priority in what sense? It's not a charity organisation.

The "most of them have middle economic" thing is the reason why Märklin has entry level models and cheap starter sets with everything in the box. Still, the hobby is, and has always been, crazy expensive. And still, Märklin seems to be making good sales with the top end stuff also.


LOL LOL LOL
Still you read here in the forum when members complain about prices of the Märklins train models.
Charity organisation supports by customer, if there is possible.
Volvo and Saab...what´s difference when they are joint stock company like other else?
I did started TS to discuss a possible by Märklin to add another digital accessories to support buyer with another way.
Do you see difference "buddy"?
Cool


How do you expect anyone to take what you say seriously when you respond with a row of laughing smileys??.

Of course I have read about the price complaints! I even said that this hobby is crazy expensive. But if Marklin couldn't make a profit they wouldn't make expensive models. Marklin also has cheaper, beginner friendlier, product lines as well. Also all other brands are expensive as well.
"Charity organisation supports by customer, if there is possible." This sentence doesn't make sense. So I won't comment. (Marklin does have lots of customer support in several meanings of the word).
The reason I mentioned Volvo and Saab is that they, like other great Swedish companies, have been through heavy crises barely managing to survive. So the idea that "if only I were the leader of this and that things would be different and successful" is easy to say but not realistic.
I know that you wonder why Marklin doesn't have something like the Z21. And I have also adressed it. We can only guess the reasons behind Marklin's decisions behind its line of products
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Offline marklinist5999  
#13 Posted : 15 November 2024 14:50:50(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,868
Location: Michigan, Troy
I have to agree with Copenhagen. Goofy sometimes rambles like one of my older neighbors. No offense Goofy, but she blames Amazon for all the stores closing, as if she can still go shopping, stuff like that. Out of touch, about things she has no control over.
Constantly complains about her husband, who does her laundry, and most of the housework becauuse she can't make stairs anymore. She says she does it all though riding up and down the sidwalk on her power chair.
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Offline mvd71  
#14 Posted : 15 November 2024 19:42:38(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,916
Location: Auckland,
Actually, I think Goofy has raised a valid question, and it is something I discussed years ago with a digital guru, and it was suggested that a good option would be a simple “black box” as a central processor, that the individual could plug into with the control module of their choice. That way everything from 6021 to ms2, tablets and phones, uhlenbrock lissy etc…. Could all be used at the customers discretion, but through a Märklin box.
Offline Copenhagen  
#15 Posted : 15 November 2024 21:16:44(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 493
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Originally Posted by: mvd71 Go to Quoted Post
Actually, I think Goofy has raised a valid question,


That's a fair question. I only got involved in the discussion because of some of the assumptions or claims that was made in the opening post and then later on.

A good question would also be what the consumer price would be of such a product - held up against the amount of resources (costs) that Marklin would have to put into such a thing and whether it would be an economically sound decision for Marklin?
Also I don't know what the price of a system like Z21 really is.
Offline kimballthurlow  
#16 Posted : 15 November 2024 21:41:12(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,762
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: mvd71 Go to Quoted Post
Actually, I think Goofy has raised a valid question, and it is something I discussed years ago with a digital guru, and it was suggested that a good option would be a simple “black box” as a central processor, that the individual could plug into with the control module of their choice. That way everything from 6021 to ms2, tablets and phones, uhlenbrock lissy etc…. Could all be used at the customers discretion, but through a Märklin box.


All very well, but what you have described is a computer/routers combined ......
A simple router is €70-100 and a business quality Meraki router (network routing, VPN, traffic shaping etc) is €5-700.
I think it would be impractical for Märklin to go down that route.

Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
Offline David Dewar  
#17 Posted : 15 November 2024 21:41:45(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,448
Location: Scotland
Not sure why you would want to buy a box that does little until you spend more buying what has to be connected to it in order to run the railway. Why clutter a table or desk with various items when one controller will do. Cant see this taking over from a complete control item which in time will be improved on the current CS3.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline mbarreto  
#18 Posted : 15 November 2024 22:05:58(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,334

I also don't see any need for a black box style controller. I prefer Marklin focuses in getting
CS3/CS3+ free software updates.
I accept thought that other people may have different preferences. I am not sure if having several styles of controllers is acceptable from a sales and proffit perspective.


Miguel


Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


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Offline Martti Mäntylä  
#19 Posted : 15 November 2024 22:42:25(UTC)
Martti Mäntylä

Finland   
Joined: 15/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 429
Location: Uusimaa, Helsinki
Originally Posted by: mvd71 Go to Quoted Post
Actually, I think Goofy has raised a valid question, and it is something I discussed years ago with a digital guru, and it was suggested that a good option would be a simple “black box” as a central processor, that the individual could plug into with the control module of their choice. That way everything from 6021 to ms2, tablets and phones, uhlenbrock lissy etc…. Could all be used at the customers discretion, but through a Märklin box.


As far as I am concerned, Märklin already has a product like this, and it's the MS2 connector box 60016. I connect it to my Mac Mini with a CAN Digital CC-Schnitte and use Rocrail for the rest. It's even black as desired.
- Martti M.
Era III analog & digital (Rocrail, CAN Digital Bahn, Gleisbox/MS2, K83/K84), C & M tracks, some Spur 1
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