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Offline Cor Sanders  
#1 Posted : 14 April 2024 17:54:53(UTC)
Cor Sanders

United Kingdom   
Joined: 08/04/2024(UTC)
Posts: 39
Location: North-West Wales, UK
I have been reading for some months now about various discussions on this great forum to make up my mind on how to upgrade my 30 year plus old Marklin loco's and also my 2-rail dc loco's to a modern standard. Modern for me in such a way that everything will work like when I was 12, analogue but also a kind of semi digital.

It is not a problem if one would have grown up with the developments in model railroading in what ever system you grew up with but not so much if you are thrown into the deep end...

I can tell you, the reader, that I understand that the mLD3 decoder option to be the most suitable for me as that will do just what I want. That much I have learned here from some of my new-found friends, with thanks Love

But, and this is the main point of my story today, but what if I have done the work and I find a new or second hand train of my liking. How do I know if the decoder will work on my modernised "digalogue" track system?

So, question, is there an easy to find "sticky" on this forum that some folk have put together that shows what will work together and what not. A bit like the London Underground maps, but then with serial numbers, functions and perhaps even a price indication.
If this is a silly question the please remove it.

Dutch greetings from Wales.
Cor
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Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 14 April 2024 18:31:20(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,360
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
MM protocol was developed on behalf of Märklin in the early days of digital MRR.
DCC protocol was developed at the same time on behalf of Märklin.
mfx was developed 20 years ago on behalf of Märklin.

Having these three protocols in modern controllers, you can use anything made for Märklin H0 tracks.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#3 Posted : 14 April 2024 19:46:11(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,366
Location: Paris, France
Hi Cor
Digitalize or not is evidently a matter of personal choice.
Here a Märklin fan having started in analog from 1961 with M track, a few all-metal locos with a direction relay.

Here is a bit of history on digital
Sounds came around 1969 with "horns" and a rather complicated and expensive system (an AC oscillator would activate a little loudspeaker in a loco).
Then came a power station (6600) to make progressive starts, stops and direction changes. This was in 1983
Then came digital in 1985 (MM1) which was a real progress for multi-train control, then MM2 around 1995 (Bye Bye Alzeimer of locos forgetting their direction of travel and hello 4 fonctions per loco)
Then came around 2005 the sound locos.

I have followed all these evolutions and digital brings really something in this:
- larger layouts with rather simple wiring
- no more a zillion insulated sections to stop a loco where you wish
- access to simple programming of a layout (shunting, forming a train or parking it in a branch track)
- regulated operation: no more relays to increase / decrease voltage uphill / downhill. The loco goes exactly as told.

I still have wonderfull locos of the early 50s (CCS800, DL800, G800, CE800) but what a racket they make, what a current they need (smells ozone everywhere), what a huge quantity of wiring they need.
In those days, to control a loco, you had a separate track loop.

So analog has its charm, especially on smaller layout where decoration is as important as rail operation.

Cheers
Jean
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Offline Cor Sanders  
#4 Posted : 14 April 2024 20:07:13(UTC)
Cor Sanders

United Kingdom   
Joined: 08/04/2024(UTC)
Posts: 39
Location: North-West Wales, UK
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Cor
Digitalize or not is evidently a matter of personal choice.
Here a Märklin fan having started in analog from 1961 with M track, a few all-metal locos with a direction relay.


So analog has its charm, especially on smaller layout where decoration is as important as rail operation.

Cheers
Jean



Hi Jean, thank you for your comments, as usual to the point, in particular where you mention "smaller layout". Obviously I missed the developments whilst my riding my motorcycles and helping the wife raising our children. (I tried to introduce trains to them but they have obviously something wrong in their genes as no interest in either trains nor motorcycles Crying ... )

To come back to my point in question, I have been reading quite a number of discussions here to make up my mind as to what to do and although all very interesting there is too much "opinion" and too little "facts". I have read other peoples questions that started whole discussions about what people like or think but no real answer to those questions. What I need is this trafo will work with these decoders but not those, these can do analogue but not digital and visa versa. Like a spreadsheet with columns and lines with "YES" and "NO" what does work and what doesn't. Is there anything like that here on the forum as a "sticky" as that is my question.

Anyway, Perhaps I will be the next train enthusiast riding off into the dark hoping that I have made the correct choices and not wasted my dosh, Glare

For now I will be building on my little modules and see how things run

Cheers,
Cor
Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 14 April 2024 21:14:55(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,360
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Cor Sanders Go to Quoted Post
What I need is this trafo will work with these decoders but not those, these can do analogue but not digital and visa versa. Like a spreadsheet with columns and lines with "YES" and "NO" what does work and what doesn't.
The recent transformers 6646, 6647, 6647x can be used for analogue operation of all Märklin H0 loco decoders and of all analogue Märklin H0 locos
Transformers not rated for 230 V should not be used for early mfx decoders in Europe with a nominal 230 V mains voltage.
Not a spreadsheet, but that's the YES shortlist.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Martti Mäntylä  
#6 Posted : 15 April 2024 17:34:25(UTC)
Martti Mäntylä

Finland   
Joined: 15/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 401
Location: Uusimaa, Helsinki
To adopt digital or not is not necessarily a binary choice.

My setup allows both modes of operation. My switches and signals are controlled digitally (with Märklin K83 decoders), but I can switch the track power of various track segments between digital and analog (with Märklin K84 decoders). I can even run a digital locomotive simultaneously with an analog locomotive when really necessary.

To keep track of my trains, I use contact tracks hooked to CAN Digital Gleisreporter units; note that contact track sensing is independent of what kind of track power is being applied, and indeed will work even if there is none as long as the tracks are connected to the ground potential.

So I use happily both digital and analog locomotives, achieving roughly the same level of automation in both with the help of Rocrail. Several other members of this forum have adopted a similar approach.

All in all, I think that digital operation is wonderful, but it is flexible enough to also accommodate analog locomotives, adding a great amount of value also to them. Having said that, I have converted a few analog and especially DELTA locomotives to full digital, but in general I find that a well-functioning analog locomotive gains quite little from the conversion.

If I had a multilevel layout with grades, I might think differently, because the load balancing that comes with digital (with c90 and beyond) would simplify the operations on a hilly ground immensely. To me it is the most important value added by digital.
- Martti M.
Era III analog & digital (Rocrail, CAN Digital Bahn, Gleisbox/MS2, K83/K84), C & M tracks, some Spur 1
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Offline Cor Sanders  
#7 Posted : 15 April 2024 19:17:40(UTC)
Cor Sanders

United Kingdom   
Joined: 08/04/2024(UTC)
Posts: 39
Location: North-West Wales, UK
Originally Posted by: Martti Mäntylä Go to Quoted Post

My setup allows both modes of operation. My switches and signals are controlled digitally (with Märklin K83 decoders), but I can switch the track power of various track segments between digital and analog (with Märklin K84 decoders). I can even run a digital locomotive simultaneously with an analog locomotive when really necessary.

.


Thank you Matti for your explanation. I do understand that digital is brilliant although I don't see for me the point to go "full digital". What I want to do is nibble on the digital edges as it were. I want to make my 2-rail dc trains work on my Marklin layout and I understand that digital (mLD3) decoders can do that.

But now my problem that is still not answered: There are quite a number of these mLD3 decoders, all with their own specific purposes. So, is there a detailed list like a spreadsheet that make the decision easier and safer?

But not to worry as I will post something here when I find it, eventually. I am not the only one that is puzzled by the many options Confused

Thanks for your comment though Matti

Cor

Offline kiwiAlan  
#8 Posted : 15 April 2024 20:27:36(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,257
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Cor Sanders Go to Quoted Post

But now my problem that is still not answered: There are quite a number of these mLD3 decoders, all with their own specific purposes. So, is there a detailed list like a spreadsheet that make the decision easier and safer?


I think you will find that all the mLD/3 decoders are the same, the only difference is in the interface connection.

One comes as a 21 pin mtc plug on decoder, and comes with a matching back plate that you do all the connections on.

One comes with an NMRA 8 pin plug that is designed to plug straight into a loco that is already fitted with an NMRA 8 pin socket.

One comes with wire leads for soldering straight into the loco.

I think there are another couple of options as well.
Personally I would suggest you get the version with the 21 pin MTC connector. as it makes replacing the decoder easy without needing to resolder anything. It also makes it easy to change to a sound decoder if desired.

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Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 15 April 2024 20:30:41(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,360
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Cor Sanders Go to Quoted Post
I want to make my 2-rail dc trains work on my Marklin layout and I understand that digital (mLD3) decoders can do that.
You can also achieve that with ESU or TRIX or Uhlenbrock decoders. But you still have to rewire the locos for three-rail operation and maybe replace the wheelsets to get them going on Märklin tracks.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Cor Sanders  
#10 Posted : 15 April 2024 21:47:05(UTC)
Cor Sanders

United Kingdom   
Joined: 08/04/2024(UTC)
Posts: 39
Location: North-West Wales, UK
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Cor Sanders Go to Quoted Post
I want to make my 2-rail dc trains work on my Marklin layout and I understand that digital (mLD3) decoders can do that.
You can also achieve that with ESU or TRIX or Uhlenbrock decoders. But you still have to rewire the locos for three-rail operation and maybe replace the wheelsets to get them going on Märklin tracks.




Thank you for your message.

Do you have manufacturers part numbers for those components that will do the job as that is what I am after.

Cheers,
Cor?
Offline Cor Sanders  
#11 Posted : 15 April 2024 21:49:58(UTC)
Cor Sanders

United Kingdom   
Joined: 08/04/2024(UTC)
Posts: 39
Location: North-West Wales, UK
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Cor Sanders Go to Quoted Post

But now my problem that is still not answered: There are quite a number of these mLD3 decoders, all with their own specific purposes. So, is there a detailed list like a spreadsheet that make the decision easier and safer?



One comes as a 21 pin mtc plug on decoder, and comes with a matching back plate that you do all the connections on.

One comes with an NMRA 8 pin plug that is designed to plug straight into a loco that is already fitted with an NMRA 8 pin socket.

One comes with wire leads for soldering straight into the loco.

I think there are another couple of options as well.
Personally I would suggest you get the version with the 21 pin MTC connector. as it makes replacing the decoder easy without needing to resolder anything. It also makes it easy to change to a sound decoder if desired.

Thank you KiwiAlan, that is info that I can do something with.

Cheers,
Cor

Offline Cor Sanders  
#12 Posted : 16 April 2024 13:20:02(UTC)
Cor Sanders

United Kingdom   
Joined: 08/04/2024(UTC)
Posts: 39
Location: North-West Wales, UK
Whilst reading the responses from various forum members I still continue to search the web and found this little gem.
I think that this is the sort of information that helps little old noobs like me on my way.

https://www.bogobit.de/decoder/dectype.html

If there is more of this about then please send me links of them so that not only I but perhaps someone else can benefit from it.

Thanks everyone in advance.

Cor
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Offline Cor Sanders  
#13 Posted : 19 April 2024 22:16:22(UTC)
Cor Sanders

United Kingdom   
Joined: 08/04/2024(UTC)
Posts: 39
Location: North-West Wales, UK
An update regarding my progress making up my mind.

¬ After reading more comments, ideas and advice on this forum I have decided to purchase a used Marklin digital trainset. It's about 20 odd years old and is the model with the Delta decoder. I have to admit that after receiving a bit of tlc and oil the train runs really nicely, in particular the electronic reversing is fab. So from that point of view I am sold to digital even if I will probably only ever use it in the simple analogue way.

¬ I am contemplating the need for all the D trains I have that will need modifying to Marklin 3-rail, perhaps I could just sell what I don't "need" and buy one or two used or new Dutch model Marklin units.

In the meantime I continue designing layout options on AutoCad and building the modules.

Thank for the info given here and the private chats.

Cor
Offline Cor Sanders  
#14 Posted : 04 July 2024 11:34:06(UTC)
Cor Sanders

United Kingdom   
Joined: 08/04/2024(UTC)
Posts: 39
Location: North-West Wales, UK
We are now a few month further and I have been selling off some of my DC Dutch model trains.

I also purchased a couple of train decoders to experiment with, mainly Delta as those will work with the old motors rather than the modern permanent magnet system.

Main reason for this update is that I stumbled today on this WIKKI file with a lot of info/detail that I have been looking out for:


https://en.wikipedia.org...0switch%20track%20power.


Some of you may know about this already but if you don't then here it is.

Back to the trains and soldering iron it is then :-)

C.
Offline Cor Sanders  
#15 Posted : 16 October 2024 16:07:49(UTC)
Cor Sanders

United Kingdom   
Joined: 08/04/2024(UTC)
Posts: 39
Location: North-West Wales, UK
A lbs

Time goes by and one grows older (wiser?) I decided to purchase a new (obsolete) digital trainset and boy am I impressed by this.

I went carefully with a mobile station controller and BR 74 engine as that has worked in the Netherlands a couple of years after the war in the series NS 5900 (before returned to its owners in Germany). I will keep as much as I can analogue but will update my remaining era I-Iii engines to digital (mM1-2 and Delta)
Just a heartfelt Thank you to those who said that I should not be so stubborn.

It has been said that learning new things grows braincells, so perhaps there’s hope for me studying this new tech…
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Offline marklinist5999  
#16 Posted : 16 October 2024 16:15:16(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,454
Location: Michigan, Troy
Learning and doing new things does keep us more lucid. Retirement is to be active as long as we can. Excercise, hobbies, reading, travel too.
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Offline Cor Sanders  
#17 Posted : 16 October 2024 22:26:04(UTC)
Cor Sanders

United Kingdom   
Joined: 08/04/2024(UTC)
Posts: 39
Location: North-West Wales, UK
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
Learning and doing new things does keep us more lucid. Retirement is to be active as long as we can. Excercise, hobbies, reading, travel too.



Ting is when the memory is getting a bit dodgy it becomes harder to remember the functions of the various buttons. And the instructions, although probably correct, needs to be understood with the thinking of the writer...

despite my little moan, once I had that BR74 engine programmed into the mobile station unit it was great to see it move ever so slowly :-)

So back to my AutoCad drawing of my dream layout I am working on. Hopefully I can manage the engines/trains digitally in the stations and send them out onto the "Dutch" mainline in Analogue... (see picture of drawing in my album
Offline Goofy  
#18 Posted : 17 October 2024 06:23:36(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,162
You can control your trains digital and signals/turnouts analog. This is what we call as semi-digital. Complete digital control uses by digital freaks who wants to have 100% complet digital layout. 😎
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline ChrisKenna  
#19 Posted : 20 October 2024 01:51:49(UTC)
ChrisKenna

Australia   
Joined: 10/10/2024(UTC)
Posts: 26
Location: NSW Australia
Originally Posted by: Martti Mäntylä Go to Quoted Post
To adopt digital or not is not necessarily a binary choice.

My setup allows both modes of operation. My switches and signals are controlled digitally (with Märklin K83 decoders), but I can switch the track power of various track segments between digital and analog (with Märklin K84 decoders). I can even run a digital locomotive simultaneously with an analog locomotive when really necessary.

To keep track of my trains, I use contact tracks hooked to CAN Digital Gleisreporter units; note that contact track sensing is independent of what kind of track power is being applied, and indeed will work even if there is none as long as the tracks are connected to the ground potential.

So I use happily both digital and analog locomotives, achieving roughly the same level of automation in both with the help of Rocrail. Several other members of this forum have adopted a similar approach.

All in all, I think that digital operation is wonderful, but it is flexible enough to also accommodate analog locomotives, adding a great amount of value also to them. Having said that, I have converted a few analog and especially DELTA locomotives to full digital, but in general I find that a well-functioning analog locomotive gains quite little from the conversion.

If I had a multilevel layout with grades, I might think differently, because the load balancing that comes with digital (with c90 and beyond) would simplify the operations on a hilly ground immensely. To me it is the most important value added by digital.


Many thanks, Martti, for your helpful comments. It seems that M-track and C-track can be connected together - info about a Marklin connector rail please, and any other requirements/cautions about this? And I think that Marklin digital locos will run with an analogue transformer, so long as it is a 'modern' one and not an old blue metal one? With thanks, Chris K
With respect and thanks to Ngannawal, Ngambri and all First Nations people
Offline ChrisKenna  
#20 Posted : 23 October 2024 14:46:20(UTC)
ChrisKenna

Australia   
Joined: 10/10/2024(UTC)
Posts: 26
Location: NSW Australia
Originally Posted by: Martti Mäntylä Go to Quoted Post
To adopt digital or not is not necessarily a binary choice.

My setup allows both modes of operation. My switches and signals are controlled digitally (with Märklin K83 decoders), but I can switch the track power of various track segments between digital and analog (with Märklin K84 decoders). I can even run a digital locomotive simultaneously with an analog locomotive when really necessary.

To keep track of my trains, I use contact tracks hooked to CAN Digital Gleisreporter units; note that contact track sensing is independent of what kind of track power is being applied, and indeed will work even if there is none as long as the tracks are connected to the ground potential.

So I use happily both digital and analog locomotives, achieving roughly the same level of automation in both with the help of Rocrail. Several other members of this forum have adopted a similar approach.

All in all, I think that digital operation is wonderful, but it is flexible enough to also accommodate analog locomotives, adding a great amount of value also to them. Having said that, I have converted a few analog and especially DELTA locomotives to full digital, but in general I find that a well-functioning analog locomotive gains quite little from the conversion.

If I had a multilevel layout with grades, I might think differently, because the load balancing that comes with digital (with c90 and beyond) would simplify the operations on a hilly ground immensely. To me it is the most important value added by digital.


Hi Martti, thanks for helpful info. Is is right that recent Marklin digital controllers well operate locos fitted with Delta? Many thanks, Chris
With respect and thanks to Ngannawal, Ngambri and all First Nations people
Offline PeFu  
#21 Posted : 23 October 2024 18:32:27(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,240
A bit off topic, but I will reply short.

Originally Posted by: ChrisKenna Go to Quoted Post
It seems that M-track and C-track can be connected together - info about a Marklin connector rail please, and any other requirements/cautions about this?

Adapter between M and C tracks as follows:

https://www.marklin.com/...ts/details/article/24951

Originally Posted by: ChrisKenna Go to Quoted Post
And I think that Marklin digital locos will run with an analogue transformer, so long as it is a 'modern' one and not an old blue metal one?

Blue transformers should not be used for digital engines, as the ”reverse” command could damage the decoder.

Originally Posted by: ChrisKenna Go to Quoted Post
Is is right that recent Marklin digital controllers well operate locos fitted with Delta?

Yes. However, performance of digital engines is much better than delta engines.
Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold V10
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Offline H0  
#22 Posted : 23 October 2024 19:04:25(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,360
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: PeFu Go to Quoted Post
However, performance of digital engines is much better than delta engines.
That is not true. Recent Delta models perform better than early Digital models with AC/DC motors.
And some Delta locos had DC motors, making them better than digital locos with AC/DC motors.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline PeFu  
#23 Posted : 23 October 2024 20:07:31(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,240
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PeFu Go to Quoted Post
However, performance of digital engines is much better than delta engines.
That is not true. Recent Delta models perform better than early Digital models with AC/DC motors.
And some Delta locos had DC motors, making them better than digital locos with AC/DC motors.

OK, agree. I should have written ”performance of digital engines is since the 6090-decoders in 1991 much better than delta engines.”

BigGrin

Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold V10
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Offline H0  
#24 Posted : 24 October 2024 07:15:36(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,360
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: PeFu Go to Quoted Post
OK, agree. I should have written ”performance of digital engines is since the 6090-decoders in 1991 much better than delta engines.”
37641 is a Märklin loco that was in the catalogue from 1999 to 2003 - and it did not have fx and it did not have load regulation. It behaves much like a Delta loco: starts moving at speed step 3 on straight track, but will then stop at turns or turnouts - will move on at a higher speed step setting.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Goofy  
#25 Posted : 24 October 2024 17:22:59(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,162
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PeFu Go to Quoted Post
OK, agree. I should have written ”performance of digital engines is since the 6090-decoders in 1991 much better than delta engines.”
37641 is a Märklin loco that was in the catalogue from 1999 to 2003 - and it did not have fx and it did not have load regulation. It behaves much like a Delta loco: starts moving at speed step 3 on straight track, but will then stop at turns or turnouts - will move on at a higher speed step setting.



This model was equipped with digital decoder adjustable (einstellbarem).

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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