Joined: 09/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 37
Location: norway
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Hi,
I picked up a very nice 39710 ICE-S set recently. It’s near mint so I suspect few running hours. The front and rear lighting is LEDs, but they exhibit a constant flickering (regardless of train movement). It reminds me of the flickering some LEDs exhibit when you connect them to AC current without a rectifier. But it seems hard to believe that Marklin delivered these sets with flickering lights… , what could be wrong.. ?
Best Kaspar
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 Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC) Posts: 3,563 Location: Paris, France
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Hi Kaspar
The 39710 is a Club modell of an ICE-S with C-Sine motor, made in 1999.
At the time, the digital unit was the 6021 Central Unit only one protocol (MM2) and Märklin managed to have a balanced signal to avoid flickering.
Now with more recent digital units (MS2, CS2, CS3) because of multiple protocols the signal can be very unbalanced (far away from a sinusoid signal) and the result is flickering.
One simple way to cure is to use LEDs (or Bulbs) that are connected on one side to the AUX ouput and to the common+ to the other side.
NOTE: be very careful with cabling etc as this C-Sine motor electronics is VERY fragile and there are no spares available
Cheers
Jean |
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 2 users liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,443
Location: DE-NW
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Originally Posted by: Kaspar  But it seems hard to believe that Marklin delivered these sets with flickering lights… , what could be wrong.. ? Maybe the flickering is more apparent on modern controllers like CS2 and CS3, but was hardly notable with the CU 6021 that was used when the ICE-S was published. It is well known that light bulbs in older 37xx locos with a c90 decoder flicker a lot when used with CS2 or CS3, but not with CU 6021. The shape of the track signal makes a difference here. A rectifier in the loco can be used to reduce or eliminate the flickering. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS  |
1 user liked this useful post by H0
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,443
Location: DE-NW
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Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB At the time, the digital unit was the 6021 Central Unit only one protocol (MM2) and Märklin managed to have a balanced signal to avoid flickering. ESU still achieve that with CS1, CS1 reloaded, and ECoS. Märklin do not achieve this with CS2 and CS3. Such a pity. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
1 user liked this useful post by H0
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Joined: 09/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 37
Location: norway
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Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Hi Kaspar
The 39710 is a Club modell of an ICE-S with C-Sine motor, made in 1999.
At the time, the digital unit was the 6021 Central Unit only one protocol (MM2) and Märklin managed to have a balanced signal to avoid flickering.
Now with more recent digital units (MS2, CS2, CS3) because of multiple protocols the signal can be very unbalanced (far away from a sinusoid signal) and the result is flickering.
One simple way to cure is to use LEDs (or Bulbs) that are connected on one side to the AUX ouput and to the common+ to the other side.
NOTE: be very careful with cabling etc as this C-Sine motor electronics is VERY fragile and there are no spares available
Cheers
Jean Thanks for the information Jean. I am not really sure what you mean with “the simple cure”. The LED board does not appear to be grounded directly to chassis, all cables go the decoder (orange I believe is ground) 
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 Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC) Posts: 1,157
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Note, that the front/rear LED board in the 39710 has reversed polarity compared to the newer LED boards/decoders from Marklin.
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1 user liked this useful post by bph
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Joined: 09/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 37
Location: norway
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Originally Posted by: Kaspar Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Hi Kaspar
The 39710 is a Club modell of an ICE-S with C-Sine motor, made in 1999.
At the time, the digital unit was the 6021 Central Unit only one protocol (MM2) and Märklin managed to have a balanced signal to avoid flickering.
Now with more recent digital units (MS2, CS2, CS3) because of multiple protocols the signal can be very unbalanced (far away from a sinusoid signal) and the result is flickering.
One simple way to cure is to use LEDs (or Bulbs) that are connected on one side to the AUX ouput and to the common+ to the other side.
NOTE: be very careful with cabling etc as this C-Sine motor electronics is VERY fragile and there are no spares available
Cheers
Jean Thanks for the information Jean. I am not really sure what you mean with “the simple cure”. The LED board does not appear to be grounded directly to chassis, all cables go the decoder (orange I believe is ground) I think I see the problem: in the rear engine unit there is no decoder board and the rear LEDs are grounded to the chassis. Because the switchover mechanism is located here also, this “polluted” ground is sent forward through the carriages and to the front LED. Meaning some serious rewiring is needed here in order to avoid the LEDs getting ground straight from the track. I suppose rectifiers could be added but complicated ..
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Joined: 09/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 37
Location: norway
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Originally Posted by: Kaspar Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Hi Kaspar
The 39710 is a Club modell of an ICE-S with C-Sine motor, made in 1999.
At the time, the digital unit was the 6021 Central Unit only one protocol (MM2) and Märklin managed to have a balanced signal to avoid flickering.
Now with more recent digital units (MS2, CS2, CS3) because of multiple protocols the signal can be very unbalanced (far away from a sinusoid signal) and the result is flickering.
One simple way to cure is to use LEDs (or Bulbs) that are connected on one side to the AUX ouput and to the common+ to the other side.
NOTE: be very careful with cabling etc as this C-Sine motor electronics is VERY fragile and there are no spares available
Cheers
Jean Thanks for the information Jean. I am not really sure what you mean with “the simple cure”. The LED board does not appear to be grounded directly to chassis, all cables go the decoder (orange I believe is ground)
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Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC) Posts: 1,157
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Originally Posted by: Kaspar I think I see the problem: in the rear engine unit there is no decoder board and the rear LEDs are grounded to the chassis. Because the switchover mechanism is located here also, this “polluted” ground is sent forward through the carriages and to the front LED. Meaning some serious rewiring is needed here in order to avoid the LEDs getting ground straight from the track. I suppose rectifiers could be added but complicated ..
The pickup shoe switchover is located in the motorised end. the switch in the unmotorized end only switches the "rear" led board red/white according to direction, and the chassis ground is not sent forward. (each wagon/locomotive has its own ground pickup) you might find some more relevant information here: https://www.marklin-users.net/forum/posts/t49115-ICE-S-39710-Sine-C-upgrade--new-msd3-decoder-and-driver--Keeping-the-original-motor
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 Joined: 08/12/2021(UTC) Posts: 141 Location: California, Sonoma County
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Please be very careful with the hard white wires connected to the C-sine motor. Jean mentions this in Post #1. I have first hand experience. The soldered connections are very sensitive to movement and you will notice Marklin put a translucent white glue on the end of the wires. This lok does not use a ribbon wire like the later C-sine models do. I broke my white wire connector wires somehow. The electrical connection became very bad. You touch the wires and the lok moves, then it stops etc, so I broke the connections.
I had to use the 3750 motorized lok as replacement. It is not C-sine, but no one knows, when I run this train now.
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2 users liked this useful post by Bill L
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Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 3,898 Location: Michigan, Troy
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Hello all, regarding the motors, I don't recall the topic post, and I don't want to bump this thread....So, besides the led retrofitting, for replacing dead C sine motors and upgrading to digital for older analog 3 pole types, I saw that Micromotor makes bell armature can motors and mounting blocks for Marklin, Fleischman,etc. locos. Modellbahn Union shop Kamen has them.
The mounting blocks appear to be 3 D fabricated.
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1 user liked this useful post by marklinist5999
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