Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline einotuominen  
#1 Posted : 02 March 2023 16:03:03(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Kaarina
Hi guys,

just out of curiosity, I ordered a Z starter set and a few extra tracks to have ~170cm wide dogbone track.

I'm quite sure that in the future I will move from H0 to a smaller scale, but not yet sure if it will be Z or N. Both have their cons and pros. I'm really interested in analogue, though I'm having a blast with my digital H0 layout (which is also under construction), so that's one thing to consider. Although there seems to be a couple of decoder options for Märklin Z available...

Anyways, I'll build the track on to foamboard. Just a temporary solution, no scenery or anything like that (well maybe a grass matt), but I guess I have to fix the tracks to the foamboard anyways. I will store the whole board in up-right position, so the track has to be fixed. Also what I've seen on youtube, the track is a bit wobbly, so that's another reason.

However, even thou this little amount of track is not that expensive, I'd still like to be able to use them later on, if I choose to go with Z all the way and build a proper layout with it.

What would be the best solution to have a good fix, but still keep the tracks in good shape? I guess glue is out of the question here...

Best regards,

-Eino
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by einotuominen
Offline mvd71  
#2 Posted : 02 March 2023 16:42:20(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,717
Location: Auckland,
I’ve seen double sided tape used
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by mvd71
Offline einotuominen  
#3 Posted : 02 March 2023 17:01:37(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Kaarina
Originally Posted by: mvd71 Go to Quoted Post
I’ve seen double sided tape used


Well that’s an interesting idea. I’ve never hand held anything Z scale, nor have I seen them live, so it will certainly come as a surprise to me how light they must be.

So a tape could actually hold the tracks I guess.

Thanks!

-Eino
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by einotuominen
Offline Zme  
#4 Posted : 03 March 2023 07:24:19(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 764
Location: West Texas
Hei. Hope you are well.

Great to hear of your layout. I have a dogbone layout also, but mine is a bit longer. I put in a hill and this has caused me issues with pulling wagons. One thing about the zscale locomotives is that they are fairly lightweight and it takes a bit of searching to find those which can pull many wagons.

Search this forum because I know Chris has a record of locomotives by weight. If you like longer trains, a locomotive with more weight will give you the best results. Starter sets usually have locomotives which will give you very good performance with the wagons provided. Adding many more wagons could reach a limit quickly.

I built my layout on a foam board also and I used the Marklin track with nails randomly. The track is on a cork bed and is ballasted. I used a white glue found here which is similar to what is also used by hobby crafters. This glue is water based and thinner and once dry, holds the track firm. I expected that if I needed to remove or change the the track I would just used water to soften the glue. I would clean and dry the track and it could be reused. This may be possible but I have not tried it.

Marklin track is light and may shift around if not fastened. I believe Noch made a premade ballast strip which uses the double sided tape with ballast material attached. You could make your own also, it will likely hold well enough.

Best wishes with your new layout.

pidä hyvää huolta. Take good care!

Dwight
Offline einotuominen  
#5 Posted : 03 March 2023 08:26:51(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Kaarina
Thanks Dwight,

I'm a bit far from building a full blown Z layout at this point, since I'm going to finish my H0 layout first anyways, but curiosity took the better of me, so I thought spending roughly 250 €, in order to have experience wheter Z is what I want in the future or not, would be a great idea! BigGrin

If I someday choose to go with Z, it'll be 3 meters by 1 meter. However what I'm after now, is just an experiment in order to have some first hand experience with the Z gauge. I'm most likely going to have similiar experiment with N also.

-Eino
Offline Toosmall  
#6 Posted : 03 March 2023 12:12:39(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 614
Location: Sydney
You really need to be careful laying track. Fish plates can go under the rail. Get some spare ones 8954 which also includes 10 isolating joiners. But once the track is down it is pretty bullet proof.

Nailing 8999 the track down is not that difficult, you may want to drill a 0.4mm to 0.5mm pilot hole if going into timber.

Stick with straight turnouts. I would avoid gradients altogether, but if you have to do them no more than 2%.

Get a BR 221 diesel hydraulic 8820 or 8821 you can't go wrong with these, I have 5 of them.

The 660mm 8594 track is great for straight and also curves to reduce joins, but that is more work.

If running parallel tracks, make some spacing guides out of styrene sheet or stiff cardboard. Even with the best of care it hard to get track perfectly straight.

Solder wires to the outside edge of the rail, about every 2m or as needed, a quality soldering iron makes the job easier.

Go for longer runs, a long loop or two, Z gauge really lends itself to this type of layout. A transient curve 8591, from curve to straight looks a lot better, especially with passenger carriages.
Offline Poor Skeleton  
#7 Posted : 03 March 2023 22:02:26(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 550
Location: England, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: Zme Go to Quoted Post

Search this forum because I know Chris has a record of locomotives by weight.

For the benefit of anyone interested, this is the latest data

Part No Description Weight
(g)
8874 BR216 (V160) B-B Diesel Hydraulic 37
81071 BR218 B-B Diesel Hydraulic 24
81176 BR V200 31
81450 BR232 Co-Co Diesel Electric 33
81551 BR111 B-B Electric 23
81870 BR 111 B-B Electric 24
88025 Klv 20 VW "Bully" 8.5
88131 BR234 Co-Co Diesel Electric 36
88132 BR W 232.01 Co-Co Diesel Electric 34
88133 BR232 Co-Co Diesel Electric 34
88136 BR W 232 Co-Co Diesel Electric 54
88150 V188 70
88167 BR 798 railcar 18
88203 BR220 (V200.0) B-B Diesel Hydraulic 33
88234 Class 1293 Bo-Bo Electric 32.5
88227 BR 194 "Crocodile" 38
88353 BR14 B-B Electric 29
88501 AE 6/6 C-C Electric 30.8
88699 BR212 B-B Diesel Hydraulic 26
88740 BR 64 2-6-2 21
88742 BR 64 2-6-2 21
88780 BR218 (V164) B-B Diesel Hydraulic 26
88783 BR216 B-B Diesel Hydraulic 23
88784 BR216 B-B Diesel Hydraulic 24
88786 BR218 (V164) B-B Diesel Hydraulic 24
88803 V80 B-B Diesel Hydraulic 21.4
88804 V80 B-B Diesel Hydraulic 21.5
88807 BR218 B-B Diesel Hydraulic Cotbus 26.24
88889 BR85 2-10-2 33
88931 BR85 2-10-2 33
88942 BR 94 0-10-0 31
88943 BR 94.5 0-10-0 31
88956 BR 130 2-6-0 28
88962 BR 86 2-8-2 25

In my experience, there is some correlation between pulling power and weight, but not a direct one. In particular, the pony trucks of stem locos detract significantly from the effective weight, so my 0-10-0s at 31g pull much (three times?) more than my 33g 2-10-2s.

Hope this is of interest


Chris
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Poor Skeleton
Offline Toosmall  
#8 Posted : 03 March 2023 23:22:17(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 614
Location: Sydney
BR 221 diesel hydraulic 8820 or 8821 with lead in the roof 44g.

ICE loco with lead absolutely everywhere 53g.

Custom build solid brass loco using crocodile 92g. If I swapped out the brass for platinum 192g!

60221.jpg

IMG_191.jpg

To minimise frustration, I would start with 4 axle diesel, then 4 axle electric. Then 6 axle electric (only 4 axles actually touch the rails).

If you want to run steam keep your track level.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Toosmall
Zme
Offline Toosmall  
#9 Posted : 04 March 2023 01:41:59(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 614
Location: Sydney
Increasing mass.

I have done lost wax casting with silver and also centrifugal lost wax casting to increase fine detail. Quite enjoyable and satisfying but long process from start to finish.

I would use the brass loco and place the parts in casting silicone. Vacuum set to remove air bubbles, easy to do with water venturi, but just another important step.

From the silicone moulds would create a wax equivalent. Adding casting spurs as required.

Set wax object in mould, burn off wax in kiln.

The part which hurts the most, having bought platinum... AND the extra required for spurs. Let's say a minimum on 250 grams for the 168 grams for the actual casting.

So at AU$53 per gram, that's AU$8,900 just for the loco itself, the spurs can be recycled for the next casting, another AU$4,300. So about AU$13k of platinum to get going. It is a treadmill of spurs, but the more locos you do the more you can amortize the cost of the spurs over many castings.

Then add traction tyres!
Offline einotuominen  
#10 Posted : 04 March 2023 12:11:22(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Kaarina
Thanks, this is excelent information and for the reasons above, I’m first going to experiment before investing too much money.

-Eino
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by einotuominen
Offline einotuominen  
#11 Posted : 05 March 2023 18:20:09(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Kaarina
Here’s an additional question.

In the book ”Electronics and wiring for model railways” by Andrew Duckworth, there is this concept of ”Passing loop” where turnouts will cut power from a track segment where the turnout is not switched to.

Does Märklin Z turnouts work this way or what would the common practice to build stations and yards that are controlled with only one speed controller?

I’m from the digital world, but so interested in going analog.

-Eino
Offline Zme  
#12 Posted : 05 March 2023 19:00:50(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 764
Location: West Texas
Hei. Hope all is well

This is certainly possible. Here is a track planning guide which includes Märklin accessories which may perform this function. It should help you with this question and perhaps help with future work on your layout.

https://www.maerklin.de/...Buch_Spur_Z_komplett.pdf

This is a large document which takes a long time to download.

Take good care.

Dwight
Offline einotuominen  
#13 Posted : 05 March 2023 19:45:52(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Kaarina
Oh this is great! Thank you!

-Eino
Offline Poor Skeleton  
#14 Posted : 06 March 2023 12:48:41(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 550
Location: England, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post


Does Märklin Z turnouts work this way or what would the common practice to build stations and yards that are controlled with only one speed controller?



I'm afraid not, Marklin Z turnouts are permanently live in both directions, so if you want to isolate a passing loop you have to insert a pair of isolating tracks or use insulating rail joiners.

I think Rokuhan turnouts are self isolating though personally I don't care for the look of them.

Hope this is of help


Chris

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Poor Skeleton
Offline einotuominen  
#15 Posted : 06 March 2023 13:22:20(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Kaarina
So guys, the starter set arrived today, and it's both a bit disappointment and great joy at the same time.

It is the cheapest starter set, but I guess starter sets should work well as standalone products...

The loco does not have enough force to pull the other of the wagon. It struggles a bit with the other too, but manages. Have a look at this YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/UbpaxboqxiI

So is there a trick to get this set working?

Anyways I'm really pleased with the scale now that I've seen Z live and the looks of the models and rails are fantastic too. This is definitely something I will pursue in the future, after I've driven my H0 layout enough. Also a great thing is that since I'm already in the hobby and very pleased with my H0 layout (although retrospectively, I should have started with a smaller scale in the first place), I stay calm and keep buying Z things with a reasonable pace and not go into insane shopping frenzy. BigGrin



Originally Posted by: Poor Skeleton Go to Quoted Post


I'm afraid not, Marklin Z turnouts are permanently live in both directions, so if you want to isolate a passing loop you have to insert a pair of isolating tracks or use insulating rail joiners.

I think Rokuhan turnouts are self isolating though personally I don't care for the look of them.

Hope this is of help


Chris



Thanks, this answers the previous question. :)

Best,

-Eino

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by einotuominen
Offline Bahner  
#16 Posted : 06 March 2023 16:58:47(UTC)
Bahner

United States   
Joined: 18/11/2017(UTC)
Posts: 166
Location: California, East Bay
.

Edited by user 08 March 2023 04:57:54(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Poor Skeleton  
#17 Posted : 06 March 2023 17:45:34(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 550
Location: England, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post

The loco does not have enough force to pull the other of the wagon. It struggles a bit with the other too, but manages. Have a look at this YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/UbpaxboqxiI



It's hard to tell from the video but when the power is applied but the train's not moving are the loco's wheels turning? When Z locos are "overloaded" the wheels spin on the track, I've never been able to stall a loco by putting too many coaches in the train.

It almost looks to me that the second truck is shorting out the rails. (I've never heard of that before but Z scale is full of unexpected surprises!) It could conceivably be a faulty controller too - you could try connecting a 9V battery directly to the track and observing what happens then.

Good luck


Chris
Offline einotuominen  
#18 Posted : 06 March 2023 18:22:05(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Kaarina
Hi guys,

the wagon is actually shorting. I've made a video. You can hear the multimeter beep. You can also hear my wife singing, don't mind her BigGrin

So this is most likely something that need to be replaced, no fixes available?



Thanks,

-Eino

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by einotuominen
Offline Poor Skeleton  
#19 Posted : 06 March 2023 19:50:56(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 550
Location: England, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post
Hi guys,

the wagon is actually shorting. I've made a video. You can hear the multimeter beep. You can also hear my wife singing, don't mind her BigGrin

So this is most likely something that need to be replaced, no fixes available?



The wheels have a plastic bush on one side that insulates the axle from the wheel. I'd suggest you remove the wheelset and inspect it under some magnification - I suspect there is a sliver of metal causing the short. Failing that, a good clean might just do the trick.

This seems very fixable to me - don't give up!


Chris
Offline Toosmall  
#20 Posted : 06 March 2023 21:26:40(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 614
Location: Sydney
I have hundreds of carriages including almost 50 of the 8630 alone & 18 ICE carriages. Never had a shorting issue on any carriage. That's new to me.

I couldn't be stuffed with the little locos. The larger 4 axle diesel & electric locos are the go.

As much as I like steam I only have 2 of them, couldn't be stuffed with their issues.

As far as turnout isolation, You use an isolation fish plates, momentary switches & latching relays.

60017.jpg

DSC_0669_114559.jpg

DSC_0667_114605.jpg

DSC_0668_114603.jpg
Offline Zme  
#21 Posted : 06 March 2023 22:23:17(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 764
Location: West Texas
Hello. Hope you are well

I have never seen any problem like this one. I remove, clean and reinstall wheelset all the time. I mix them up and just put them back on without issues.

Did you get other wagons with your set. There should be a green low board wagon. Leave the other wagon aside for the time being. Put on the other wagon. What happens? Does it short out also? If the wagon is added at a point other than the terminal track, what happens? Inspect the terminal track, any issues with it?

Where was this set purchased? From a dealer? The set is under warranty if you did and might need to be switched with another one.

This is a very strange problem, unseen by me at least.

This locomotive should pull up to 5 or 6 wagons on a flat layout easily. Maybe more.

Take good care. This might just be some bad luck. These set are usually relatively easy to get working.

Dwight


Offline einotuominen  
#22 Posted : 07 March 2023 06:24:14(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Kaarina
Originally Posted by: Poor Skeleton Go to Quoted Post

The wheels have a plastic bush on one side that insulates the axle from the wheel. I'd suggest you remove the wheelset and inspect it under some magnification - I suspect there is a sliver of metal causing the short. Failing that, a good clean might just do the trick.

This seems very fixable to me - don't give up!


I'll do that, let's see if there is something you describe!



Originally Posted by: Toosmall Go to Quoted Post

I couldn't be stuffed with the little locos. The larger 4 axle diesel & electric locos are the go.

As much as I like steam I only have 2 of them, couldn't be stuffed with their issues.

As far as turnout isolation, You use an isolation fish plates, momentary switches & latching relays.



Yeah, I'm going for the 4 axel diesels and electics for sure.

I love steam. Have great steams in my H0 layout, but anything older than about 2005 and there are so much problems with derailments. The starter loco on this Z set is only three wheels though.

Your control panel looks like something I have planned in my mind BigGrin


Originally Posted by: Zme Go to Quoted Post
Did you get other wagons with your set. There should be a green low board wagon. Leave the other wagon aside for the time being. Put on the other wagon. What happens? Does it short out also? If the wagon is added at a point other than the terminal track, what happens? Inspect the terminal track, any issues with it?

Where was this set purchased? From a dealer? The set is under warranty if you did and might need to be switched with another one.




Yes there's the other wagon and it works perfectly. I've also inspected the terminal track with multimeter and it is fine. The set is purchased from a dealer and I've also contacted Märklin about the issue. Let's see what they say.

What would the hobby be if there were no issues like this to solve, right?

Best,

-Eino


Offline Toosmall  
#23 Posted : 07 March 2023 16:19:27(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 614
Location: Sydney
Anything with 3 or more axles, only the 2 end axles are actually driving. All the intermediate axles are raised about 0.5mm. So a 6 axle diesel only has 4 axles in contact with the rail, the 2 outer axles on each bogie.
Offline hennabm  
#24 Posted : 21 April 2023 18:12:25(UTC)
hennabm

Scotland   
Joined: 22/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 2,041
Location: Edinburgh,
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post
Here’s an additional question.

In the book ”Electronics and wiring for model railways” by Andrew Duckworth, there is this concept of ”Passing loop” where turnouts will cut power from a track segment where the turnout is not switched to.

Does Märklin Z turnouts work this way or what would the common practice to build stations and yards that are controlled with only one speed controller?

I’m from the digital world, but so interested in going analog.

-Eino


Hi Eino

I have set up my layout to operate automatically with 2 trains and a passing place.
As said already the points do not isolate so to make this happen you need to use isolated track sections and feeds.

I ended up cutting the track to for make a short enough isolation section and then soldered the wires to it.
I then used 2 8945 to control the signals, isolating track feeds and points.

I attach a drawing of the diagram M provided with an 8945.

IMG_1329.jpg

Mike
1957 - 1985 era
What's digital?
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by hennabm
Offline Alsterstreek  
#25 Posted : 22 April 2023 10:55:53(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,669
Location: Hybrid Home
Originally Posted by: Zme Go to Quoted Post
Here is a track planning guide which includes Märklin accessories which may perform this function. [...]

https://www.maerklin.de/...Buch_Spur_Z_komplett.pdf

I love the 2800 x 800 mm layout concept presented on pages 84-87:

"Old and New Main Lines on a Layout
While a modern train such as the ICE is at home on the upper line, older models can also be run on the lower, existing line. Past and present come together on one layout - certainly not an everyday theme for a layout."
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
Offline einotuominen  
#26 Posted : 22 April 2023 18:56:48(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Kaarina
Originally Posted by: hennabm Go to Quoted Post


Hi Eino

I have set up my layout to operate automatically with 2 trains and a passing place.
As said already the points do not isolate so to make this happen you need to use isolated track sections and feeds.

I ended up cutting the track to for make a short enough isolation section and then soldered the wires to it.
I then used 2 8945 to control the signals, isolating track feeds and points.

I attach a drawing of the diagram M provided with an 8945.

IMG_1329.jpg

Mike


This is excelent! Thanks.

BR,
Eino

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by einotuominen
Users browsing this topic
OceanSpiders 2.0
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2024, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.936 seconds.