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Offline phils2um  
#1 Posted : 28 June 2018 08:17:36(UTC)
phils2um

United States   
Joined: 12/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 165
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Hi folks,

My CS3 (purchased new in late 2016, SN 953) has been giving me trouble from day one. I'm running LGB outside with a mix of of Mfx+, ESU MM4, Massoth DCC, and LGB MTS decoders and using LGB switch decoders. I'll be running one or two locos and everything seems fine. But, more often than not, when I turn on loco lights the internal booster's temperature inexplicably begins to rise from 45 to 50ºC to the high 60ºs C. Simultaneously, the command signal is garbled to the point that the locos and turnout don't respond. The Track Current never indicates an overload and is always less than 5A. Sometimes much less. Power to the tracks never trips off and the locos continue on at whatever setting was last understood. The only way to get them to stop is to hit the STOP button. I've also noticed that the internal booster is showing some Main Track current flow, 0.075A, even with the STOP activated and nothing connected to the track output. Is this normal? Has anybody out there experienced similar issues with their CS3?

The Programming Track output shows 0 A as would be expected with nothing connected. It is not a power supply problem. The CS3 was being supplied with a 19V, 6.3A switching PS. The same thing happens when its powered by the new 60195 120V 100w Märklin PS.

Last week I purchased a 60175 booster and started using it instead of the CS3 internal booster. When mated to the CS3 it appears to function as expected and without any problems. So I don't think the issue is track related.

Any help would be appreciated!

Phil S.

Phil S.
Offline JohnjeanB  
#2 Posted : 28 June 2018 10:48:11(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Hi Phil

I am not a CS3 specialist but I have 2 CS2 that I repaired. I operate a HO system with the 100W Märklin Power supply unit 60101.
From what you describe it seems to me:
- that your layout is OK as evidenced by your use of a booster (does not provide signal distorsion)
- your CS3 seems to works OK except for the main power output stage.

It would be interesting to connect your layout to your CS3 programming output (of course with less locos and power absorbing devices).
This is just to evidence the good fonctionning of the rest of your CS3 (except the main output stage).

With a return to Märklin for repair I think you must prepare to wait for 3 months and pay 300 Euros (this is only my belief and past experience on returning CS2 to Göppingen) This happened to me twice and they usually change the whole motherboard.

Another solution is to keep on using your separate booster.

Good luck

Jean
Offline kiwiAlan  
#3 Posted : 28 June 2018 17:40:22(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: phils2um Go to Quoted Post
Hi folks,

My CS3 (purchased new in late 2016, SN 953) has been giving me trouble from day one. I'm running LGB outside with a mix of of Mfx+, ESU MM4, Massoth DCC, and LGB MTS decoders and using LGB switch decoders. I'll be running one or two locos and everything seems fine. But, more often than not, when I turn on loco lights the internal booster's temperature inexplicably begins to rise from 45 to 50ºC to the high 60ºs C. Simultaneously, the command signal is garbled to the point that the locos and turnout don't respond. The Track Current never indicates an overload and is always less than 5A. Sometimes much less. Power to the tracks never trips off and the locos continue on at whatever setting was last understood. The only way to get them to stop is to hit the STOP button. I've also noticed that the internal booster is showing some Main Track current flow, 0.075A, even with the STOP activated and nothing connected to the track output. Is this normal? Has anybody out there experienced similar issues with their CS3?

The Programming Track output shows 0 A as would be expected with nothing connected. It is not a power supply problem. The CS3 was being supplied with a 19V, 6.3A switching PS. The same thing happens when its powered by the new 60195 120V 100w Märklin PS.

Last week I purchased a 60175 booster and started using it instead of the CS3 internal booster. When mated to the CS3 it appears to function as expected and without any problems. So I don't think the issue is track related.

Any help would be appreciated!

Phil S.



Where did that power supply come from? It sounds like an old laptop power supply.

What did you set the power supply model to on the CS3? It sounds like you had it set up for a 100W supply model, but using a less than 100W power supply. This means that the overcurrent protection in the output stage is set incorrectly, and this may have damaged the output stage, which could be why it still gets hot when using a 100W supply.

Also note that Marklin tell you to use a 100W supply with G1 or LGB.
Offline phils2um  
#4 Posted : 28 June 2018 22:04:18(UTC)
phils2um

United States   
Joined: 12/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 165
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
In response to KiwiAlan -
Yes, the 19V, 6.3A switching PS is one sold as laptop supply replacement. Not old but new. As I'm sure you're aware, for DC P=VA and 19V x 6.3A = 120W so lack of available power should not have been an issue when set for the 60101 100W PS. Also, when I first started using the CS3 it was powered by a Märklin 60065 PS with the recommended 60061 setting. This was the configuration for my first nine months or so of use. I was having the same loss of control issue when less than 3A was flowing. But the track power would cut out if too much current was being drawn (too many loco motors and/or too much wagon lighting) like it should. The only reason I mentioned power not cutting out was to emphasize that the current draw as indicated by the CS3 when the temperature spiked was well within what should have been the CS3's normal capability.

As to your final note, my reading is that Märklin warns not to use a 100W PS with smaller scales, not that a 100W PS is required when running G1 or LGB. I'm pretty sure this is concern over the typical wire sizes used in the smaller scales being inadequate for 5A. I still believe the PS is not and did not cause the problem. But, thanks for your input.

Jean - I had not thought of using the programming track output to power the layout. I'll have to do some testing. The current limit is listed as 1.5A in the English version the the CS3 manual. That should be enough to let me operate a couple of single motor locos to check things out.

It still concerns me that the CS3 indicates a current draw of 0.075A on the track output even with nothing connected.

Phil S.
Phil S.
Offline phils2um  
#5 Posted : 29 June 2018 09:03:56(UTC)
phils2um

United States   
Joined: 12/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 165
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Hi All - Here is a followup to my initial post to this thread.

Today I did some testing of the CS3 using its programming track output to power my outdoor layout as suggested by Jean. I was only able to use two single motor LGB locos due to the limited current, 1.5A, available at the programming track output. When both locos were running at moderate speed with lights on the current draw varied between 1.1 and 1.3 amps at 19V. Power was supplied by a 60065 PS. I operated this way for about 2 hours checking locomotive and turnout response to CS3 commands. All functioned as expected the entire time. The CS3's internal booster indicated a maximum temperature of about 47ºC .

I then switched the layout to the track power output. Within about 10 minutes of loco running the loss of control issue reared its head. I had just halted one of the locos. I attempted to restart it and it failed to move. Then, I tried turning off its lights. It did not respond, the lights remained on. I attempted to operate some turnouts. Again, none responded. The running loco continued to run even after its controller was dialed back to zero. I also noted that the booster temperature began to rise reaching a maximum of almost 59ºC before I activated STOP killing power to the layout. The indicated current output never rose above 1.5A throughout.

I immediately switched back to programming track power to check if that output was similarly affected. It was not. Everything still worked fine and responded properly to CS3 commands using programming track power.

I swapped back to the track power output a second time. The CS3 was still unable to issue commands to locos or turnouts when the layout was connected to Track Power.

I continued to swap back and forth another couple of times just to verify what I had observed.

I ended using programming track power for about another hour periodically checking loco and turnout response. It was normal. Also, the booster temperature came back down below 50ºC before I quit.

Based on today's observations and the fact the the CS3 operates normally when using an external 60175 booster, I can only conclude there is a fault in the internal Track Power circuitry of my CS3. Also, overheating of the internal booster was not the cause of the fault but rather a result of the fault.

I will have to contact Märklin here in the States to see what my options for repair or replacement are.

Thanks again Jean for suggesting this test. It has helped to greatly clarify just where my CS3's problem lie.

Phil S.

Edited by user 29 June 2018 21:30:42(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Phil S.
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#6 Posted : 04 July 2018 11:06:01(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Hi Phil

The aggravating part is that most probably only the two power semi-conductors on the track power are to be replaced and may cost not so much (10 or 20$).
I believe the existing pair has been damaged and the "rest current" is way too high.
Cheers

Jean
Offline Goofy  
#7 Posted : 04 July 2018 12:32:32(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Märklin recommended 60 VA with H0 scale while the big scale 100 VA.
With CS3 you can set power limit by choise 60 or 100 VA.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline BenP  
#8 Posted : 24 March 2023 18:56:28(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
I have a similar heating problem. My CS3+ just stopped powering the layout. It boots up as normal.
I disconnected everything, reset unit to factory ("leer.zip") and use a 1 m track and small loc to test functionality. I noticed that the temperature of the CS3 increases to over 50C, even when there is no load. The software shows the correct 19V, but voltage does not reach the track connector (not a wiring issue).
I tried both the main and programming track connects (and even no track connected). No difference. It shows hotter with time, without any use.
Looks like an internal heating issue, but I'm not sure what/how to test. Suggestions?
Ben
Digital M (+ some K) track layout with mostly vintage rolling stock and accessories, and small Z scale layout.
https://youtube.com/play...0kgVYbh0CeDTF-bYXoD_2-V9
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by BenP
Offline Minok  
#9 Posted : 24 March 2023 19:43:51(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Ben, from the description, it sounds as thought there is a failed component in the inside the output stage within the CS3. Time to send it to Maerklin.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Minok
Offline JohnjeanB  
#10 Posted : 24 March 2023 20:02:54(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Hi Ben
There are multiple factors at play here:
- how is installed the CS3 (air circulation around it or on a blanketBigGrin ? Seriously there must be some air circulation especially under the unit.
- what is the ambiant temperature with 20-25°C the internal temperature of 45-50°C is not shocking. The transistors are ok to work up to 100°C and much more in theory ("Absolute maximum ratings")
- the temperature measuring component may be slightly off (pessimistic) and anyways is NOT of a diabolical precision (same as the current sensor)
- the idle current in the power stage is too high. This is important factor in heat built-up when there is no outside load.

The MOS FET used in the CS3s and last versions of CS2 are very high current transistors (way above the 5 A limit) working with a very low internal resistance
The power circuit is so efficient that there is NO heat dissipator (radiator)
Just to give an idea, here is the motherboard of late CS2 60215 using the same output stage components (in the red frame)
Sans titre.jpg

Cheers
Jean
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Offline BenP  
#11 Posted : 24 March 2023 22:21:31(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Thx for responses. Maybe it is not heat, but having no out voltage from both main and programming connects is bad sign.
Anybody have experience with mailing and repair in Germany? I can get a new CS3 for under $650 (don't need plus) and expect that repair is several hundreds, and hundred for insured mailing from+to US, and 3-4 months of no running layout.
No cs3 repair done in US (talked with repair honcho).
What about other controller brands, as I use Rocrail for everything?
Ben
Digital M (+ some K) track layout with mostly vintage rolling stock and accessories, and small Z scale layout.
https://youtube.com/play...0kgVYbh0CeDTF-bYXoD_2-V9
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by BenP
Offline Minok  
#12 Posted : 24 March 2023 22:35:30(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Ben, if you purchased the CS3 from a US based Maerklin dealer, you should be able to send it to Maerklin in the US, and they then send it to Germany.. that would at least reduce the postage costs a bit, but doesn't do much for the time to fix it.
Given how this works on electronics, I expect what Maerklin would do when they get it is do some basic tests and if they see there is an electronic problem, just ship out a replacement unit and not try fixing yours to return it to you.
So of course, back up the config/settings/layout/etc to a flash drive first, so you can restore the settings and configuration etc to the replacement.

None of this addresses you being without a train controller for months though.

If you just use the CS3 as the power supply and interface, you would presumably need another MFX capable controller that works with your accessories (S88 and decoders and signals). Going to a different brand can be an issue - so be sure your signals/decoders/S88 solution will work with the new controller.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Minok
Offline marklinist5999  
#13 Posted : 25 March 2023 13:21:14(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,075
Location: Michigan, Troy
The hotter temperature is one thing but not feeding track power is bad. Mine gets warmer at the top of the screen and rear edge the longer it is on. Electronic components can be pesky things. Some don't even operate if they've not been used in a long time.
CD players for example. I have a Technics by Panasonic 60 disc changer. It isn't even dusty inside but will not read. Play or power off. There are sandwiched mode switches in some that have a disc shaped circuit board and a triple prong wiper contact which rotates to actuate the platter and or drive/load modes. They can oxidize inside and the dielectric grease dries out. On some the modes are read by optic sensors which get dirty or fail.
Sometimes capacitors and resistors fail, or power supplies.
Offline bph  
#14 Posted : 25 March 2023 14:44:59(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 985
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
Thx for responses. Maybe it is not heat, but having no out voltage from both main and programming connects is bad sign.
Anybody have experience with mailing and repair in Germany? I can get a new CS3 for under $650 (don't need plus) and expect that repair is several hundreds, and hundred for insured mailing from+to US, and 3-4 months of no running layout.
No cs3 repair done in US (talked with repair honcho).
What about other controller brands, as I use Rocrail for everything?
Ben


you can look into using an ms2 tack box, and a can interface box from can-digital-bahn.com (Rocrail compatible), or other similar solutions, at least as a temporary backup solution.....
Offline Goofy  
#15 Posted : 25 March 2023 16:55:32(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
I did checked in my CS3 without locomotives/wagons standing on the track and accessories connect.
Just after 5 minutes the heat did increased from 29° to 31,9° celsius.
You can see that there is power consumption on the main track and programming track and only CS3 alone connect on.
DSC_0005.JPG
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline BenP  
#16 Posted : 06 October 2023 02:14:34(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Follow-up.
My CS3+ had a failed mainboard power amplifier, based on Marklin-DE repair. A new board was needed. After some back and forth, they accepted the warranty status (broken within 24m), and repaired and return mailed free of cost. Unit works again flawlessly.
Classy Märklin!

(BTW, the original poster of this item suddenly passed away earlier this year. A nice guy with a stunning outdoor LGB layout and beautiful rolling stock. Sad news.)
Digital M (+ some K) track layout with mostly vintage rolling stock and accessories, and small Z scale layout.
https://youtube.com/play...0kgVYbh0CeDTF-bYXoD_2-V9
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by BenP
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