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Offline Sobek  
#1 Posted : 01 February 2023 15:30:39(UTC)
Sobek

Sweden   
Joined: 01/02/2023(UTC)
Posts: 4
Hello everyone.

A few of my Märklin Z steam locos with the older 5-pole motor are acting up, and will probably need replacement motors.

Would it be possible to (easily) retrofit a new motor with bell-shaped armature instead?

For example, let's look at BR 85.

Compare the exploded view of the older 88885 here:
https://static.maerklin.de/damcontent/7d/c9/7dc92a1759fed5e29ed7b369cea078951434542645.pdf

with the exploded view of the newer 88889 on page 8 here:
https://static.maerklin.de/damcontent/b5/f2/b5f2866bc6510f1f39744159d676d5841571119489.pdf

It looks like the new motor would be a direct fit.

Has anyone tried this?

Any reason why it wouldn't work?
Offline husafreak  
#2 Posted : 02 February 2023 00:25:21(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 537
Location: California, Bay Area
This is a pretty unusual transplant, maybe you could be the first? I have not seen much in the subject except for a couple of amazing craftsmen. I can’t recall any threads here. Maybe ask your question on Trainboard? There are some masters there ;)
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Zme
Offline Zme  
#3 Posted : 02 February 2023 06:33:44(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 690
Location: West Texas
Hello, hope you are well.

Your question is a good one, and how difficult could this transition be? It might work easy for the two locomotives you are comparing. I have not heard of a transition like this that has not required machining of the metal frame or the shell. There may be someone who is doing this work. Maybe this site could give you some advice or they may have identified easily transitioned models:

https://www.z-hightech.d...g=6&sprache=englisch

I tend to believe if it is truly easy, we would see more about it. A YouTuber is hard to keep quiet because they are usually out in front, proud of their accomplishments. I do recall someone posting a video some time back but since then, I have not seen further work. I will look thru my bookmarks to see if I have a link.

I just would not take on machining myself, but perhaps you have the type of equipment needed and have worked or are experienced yourself. A failure to get this machining right may be an expensive error to recover from.

I would suggest starting with a simple, less costly locomotive which Marklin has transitioned to the new motor, and which looks easy. I believe the new motors are selling for around $30-40. If an 8885 were used as a starting point, it might cost over $100. (Is assume you already have this). With these two expenses, you might as well decide you are committed.

One caution I would consider is that with the new model from Marklin, I have noticed, that not all parts shown on the diagrams are assigned a part number. I don’t know if these parts are still available or if they are not something which a user could purchase. Look over the new diagram you have, there might be some part which is shown but not listed on the part number listing.

I would look forward to what you discover if you take on this task. Please let us know how it goes. In the meantime, I will look for a link for a video on this.

Take good care.

Dwight
Offline Zme  
#4 Posted : 02 February 2023 06:39:43(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 690
Location: West Texas
Hi.

I think this is a YouTube concerning this :

https://www.youtube.com/...esktop&v=gbCOZYIQ7EA

Thanks

Dwight
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Offline Sobek  
#5 Posted : 03 February 2023 14:23:15(UTC)
Sobek

Sweden   
Joined: 01/02/2023(UTC)
Posts: 4
Thank you for your input, everyone.

Just like you, I do belive there are obstacles to overcome, otherwise there would be more information out there. With replacement 5-pole motors no longer being produced, we do however need to find some kind of solution.

Unfortunately I don't have the skills nor the equipment to do any machining if that turns out to be necessary, but I might buy a motor anyway and see if I can make it fit without too much trouble. If I do I will post my findings here. Smile


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Zme
Offline Zme  
#6 Posted : 03 February 2023 19:42:59(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 690
Location: West Texas
Hello. Hope you are well.

Great to hear you will try something. Perhaps your work will give some of us the courage to try it ourselves.

In Germany, there are likely vendors who will modify your frame. I have not heard of any here, I don’t know if you have someone in your location. I would be handy to give a frame to someone who has the knowledge, experience and correct equipment to perform this task. In my dreams I guess.

You are right, the 5 poles are phasing out. They call it planned obsolescence, it is just a marketing scheme to get us to buy the new models. Eventually, we will see all locomotives converted by Marklin, the newly announced V60 and BR 139 are current examples. I am sure you can think of others.

Best wishes, take good care.

Dwight

Edited by user 04 February 2023 00:19:19(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Carim  
#7 Posted : 06 February 2023 11:59:57(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 630
Location: London
I suspect that the conversions are beyond the skill of most miniclub users Crying. So what's going to happen when existing 3 or 5-pole motors die - are we going to have a lot of "display only" models? I have asked Märklin this question directly - let's see if they reply.

Carim
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Zme
Offline Carim  
#8 Posted : 06 February 2023 16:19:22(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 630
Location: London
I have found someone who can do the conversions: https://www.lokomotiven-bahls.de/indexVI.html

Carim
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Zme
Offline Carim  
#9 Posted : 07 February 2023 09:27:41(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 630
Location: London
Well, I had asked Märklin whether they would ever be selling spare 5-pole motors again or would they have a service to fit the new motors in non-functioning 3 or 5-pole locos. Otherwise, what should we do in this situation?

They replied:

"vielen Dank für Ihr Interesse an unseren Produkten und Ihre Anfrage. Wir konnten folgende Information dazu ermitteln:

Die entsprechende 3-pol und 5-pol Motoren aus den Spur Z Modellen sind leider nicht mehr erhältlich.

Wir bedauern, Ihnen keine erfreulichere Nachricht geben zu können und bitten um Ihr Verständnis."

[Thank you for your interest in our products and your inquiry. We were able to determine the following information:
Unfortunately, the corresponding 3-pole and 5-pole motors from the Z gauge models are no longer available.
We regret not being able to give you better news and ask for your understanding.]

Great! Huh

Carim
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Offline parakiet  
#10 Posted : 07 February 2023 10:40:58(UTC)
parakiet

Belgium   
Joined: 20/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 257
Location: Flanders!
A few remarks :)

Buying a new loc could be a better choice instead of letting someone else change the motor, at least in the commercial world. You'll need to chip in 120+ euro/dollar for the motor, work hours and of course shipping to and back to you! Perhaps the whole process will even cost more! That's almost the price of a new loc! The new one probably has better detail etc.

Buying a second loc and make one good out of two 'bad'. It could be as simple as buying a used loc and just change the shells. Or as complicated as dismantling both to make one new and keep a stash of spares.

Buying a second loc with the same chassis. Some locs are just different shells on the same chassis. Same process as above.

Buying second hand spare parts.. this exists too :)

Than there is good old tinkering. With some wood, plastic, glue,... or even a 3d printer

Lets just say there are plenty of options.
Offline husafreak  
#11 Posted : 07 February 2023 17:32:52(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 537
Location: California, Bay Area
As supplies dwindle people are going to “stock up” on spares. So there are probably lots of spare motors that will never see the light of day ;) Or the new fleabay pricing model will have them going for as much as a new loco. It’s a bit hysterical since the vast majority of motors will never wear out. For those who do run motors for 100’s of hours buying old locos for the motor may be the best way. I think buying old locos is a safe bet that they were not run much and the motors will have a lot of life left in them. I’m afraid Modifying the chassis and drive to accept modern motors will always be expensive, time consuming, and require special skills.
I started to focus on buying new locos for several reasons. Mostly because the older ones I was buying required a lot of effort to get running, but the new ones often look better too.
I can’t fault Marklin for leaving the past behind. It’s “marketing 101” isn’t it? Most of those old locos were pre bankruptcy and work only too well!
It’s an interesting situation though. New modelers come in and buy old locos, run them constantly until they die, then leave the hobby in disgust when they can’t get parts for a 50 year old toy! I can certainly see that happening.
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Offline Toosmall  
#12 Posted : 07 February 2023 21:52:16(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 566
Location: Sydney
All my locos are 3 pole except for the twin engine custom build "6 pole" cutting two locos in half as an experiment. Why not modify a few things, so what if there is the odd failure or hopefully success. I have flogged to death some of my locos so I can see why manufacturers want to build in as much obsolescence as possible.

The hammer is a failed design. It just simply lasts too long... not enough landfill products!

If you want to modify locos get a mill.
IMG_191.jpg
(couldn't cut off the the extra wheels without a rebuild of the chassis)
Offline husafreak  
#13 Posted : 08 February 2023 00:03:00(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 537
Location: California, Bay Area
Expert in the house! Fantastic creation BTW. I'll add "mill" to my list of things to buy :)
Offline Toosmall  
#14 Posted : 08 February 2023 09:35:15(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 566
Location: Sydney
If you want to see experts. Have a look people who make watches and clocks, cutting gears etc. Frightening stuff the skills of watchmakers.
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Offline Zme  
#15 Posted : 10 February 2023 20:02:44(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 690
Location: West Texas
Hello everyone. Hope you are well.

Earlier I mentioned that the parts diagram doesn’t assign a part number to all parts shown and I didn’t know if these parts are available to us.

Today I was reading the operator’s instructions for one of the new locomotives. The parts diagram did not have numbers assigned to all the parts shown.

As I looked down further on the sheet, at the bottom it states. “ Parts that are not listed here can only be repaired by the Märklin repair service department.”

I guess that unfortunate statement clarifies this issue for me.

Take good care.

Dwight
Offline Sobek  
#16 Posted : 12 February 2023 10:07:10(UTC)
Sobek

Sweden   
Joined: 01/02/2023(UTC)
Posts: 4
An interesting find: http://www.nigellawton009.com/VeeTipper.html

In the products section on the left, go to Micro Motor (6mm x 12mm). As you will see, he has installed a small coreless motor with a shaft adapter in a 8805 loco. Both the motor and the shaft adapter are available for purchase.

Not really plug and play, but there are instructions and a few short videos showing how well it runs afterwards.
Offline Carim  
#17 Posted : 12 February 2023 11:44:00(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 630
Location: London
Hi,

You don't even have to go to Nigel Lawton, Märklin sells a number of the new motors as spare parts already. A number of people on the ZFI forum are re-motoring 3 & 5-pole engines to the new motors just to get the better performance. The problems that are often faced are getting the new motor to sit in the old chassis (may require removing material and then putting in a support for the new motor) and also getting drive shafts of the correct length.

Carim
Offline Sobek  
#18 Posted : 12 February 2023 12:21:15(UTC)
Sobek

Sweden   
Joined: 01/02/2023(UTC)
Posts: 4
Originally Posted by: Carim Go to Quoted Post
Hi,

You don't even have to go to Nigel Lawton, Märklin sells a number of the new motors as spare parts already. A number of people on the ZFI forum are re-motoring 3 & 5-pole engines to the new motors just to get the better performance. The problems that are often faced are getting the new motor to sit in the old chassis (may require removing material and then putting in a support for the new motor) and also getting drive shafts of the correct length.

Carim

Thanks, I'll check out the ZFI forum then. I wasn't aware of it.

I know Märklin sells the new motors, and they do seem to fit the older locos, that is why I originally started this thread.
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Offline husafreak  
#19 Posted : 12 February 2023 17:29:50(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 537
Location: California, Bay Area
Gosh, the Z scene seems big in Europe! Just looking at ZFI now on a Sunday I see 30 users online! And my browser could translate the forum, what fun! I look forward to reading the threads.
The link to Nigel Lawton was very interesting too. Very complete instructions for a motor retrofit. I found it interesting that some are doing the conversion just for better running. I only have one 3 pole loco and I don’t mind the performance of my 5 pole locos. But one thing stuck in my mind:

“This is a cheap way to get a dead Z scale loco working, or to improve running if 'cogging' of the original motor is a problem.”

Buying dead locos cheap and re motoring them with cheap can motors is a nice idea for anyone with skills on a budget.
Maybe my last post wondering if the effort was worth it or if the motors were really wearing out was a bit insensitive. I actually hoped to spark some discussion on who has had motors die? I have not and I have some pretty old locos from fleabay and other shops.
What I imagined to be a hopeless subject has sparked a really interesting discussion now!
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Offline Mark5  
#20 Posted : 23 February 2023 23:18:37(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,404
Location: Montreal, Canada
This is really interesting!
So can you tell me if there is a way of re-motoring a 3-pole 8892 to a 5-pole or can motor. I have a special project and the Snail Controller is ideal for this, however, I want to get the best slow speed movement I can. I cannot find a 211909 but there is a 211906 out there. Has anyone altered them to fit, or are there other types of motors that would work?

Thanks for posting!
Mark
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
Offline Zme  
#21 Posted : 24 February 2023 00:50:01(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 690
Location: West Texas
Hello hope all is well.

In most cases, going from a 3 pole motor to a 5 pole does not require extensive modification. A concern with steam type locomotives, is that the motor might need to be soldered into the circuit board. This could be a challenge to some. Other modern electric/hydraulic locomotives can easily be upgrade be removing the old one and inserting the new 5 pole.

I would check which motor you need for your locomotive. Sometimes a motor number is switched to a new number unexpectedly. You could check with a reputable dealer such as z hobo, to verify which is correct for you. Www.zscalehobo.com. It is possible, he may still have your motor available.

I five poles motor is said to be quieter and starts to move before a three pole. The three poles takes more to get moving, but is is stronger in pulling power. Others say there is really not much difference and an upgrade is a waste of money.

Take good care.

Dwight
Offline Mark5  
#22 Posted : 24 February 2023 02:45:28(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,404
Location: Montreal, Canada
Thanks so much Dwight,
I was just messaged from a rather serious Z-scaler who said as much, I will need to verify.
......" Hello Mark
as far as I know the 211909 engine
This engine is now discontinued, and replaced by the 211911 ...."

Do you have any experience with this?

Originally Posted by: Zme Go to Quoted Post
...... Sometimes a motor number is switched to a new number unexpectedly. You could check with a reputable dealer such as z hobo, to verify which is correct for you. Www.zscalehobo.com. It is possible, he may still have your motor available.

DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
Offline Zme  
#23 Posted : 24 February 2023 06:39:32(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 690
Location: West Texas
Hello again.

Is that a question for me?

Yes, I have upgrade a 8891 to a five pole and it works today.

With a reasonable amount of skill and a few tools you can do it too. Do you know if anyone has worked on your locomotive before and does it currently work.

I am not totally familiar with your model and could not find a parts diagram for it. I believe it is similar to the 8891. Check this diagram

https://static.maerklin....c3d0c6406b1434542608.pdf

Search this forum about upgrading Z motors and if you will replace a motor when you find one, search “quartering”. If you have not quartered the wheels before, that will be perhaps the most difficult process you will encounter. You could try removing the motor without removing the wheels, but I just broke down the entire locomotive. If you come up with a question or problem, search the forum because it may be something already covered or just ask.

Try not to lose anything because the parts are small. Take your time, cleaning the parts is an important task.

You need a good soldering tool removing the motor. Careful not to melt anything around it. I did not have a good one, but got thru it anyway. I have since obtained a good one and it is so much better to work with.

You likely know all this, but it is good to realize you can do this. If you would rather, contact z hobo, he does this kind of work too. Only one I know of.

Best wishes for your successful results.

Take good care.

Dwight
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Offline husafreak  
#24 Posted : 24 February 2023 17:56:55(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 537
Location: California, Bay Area
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Offline Taulov  
#25 Posted : 27 March 2023 23:05:13(UTC)
Taulov

Denmark   
Joined: 13/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1
Location: Hovedstaden, Kbh
5 mins after I read your thread here I fell over this on facebook;
Screenshot 2023-03-27 at 22.54.07.png (1,377kb) downloaded 25 time(s).
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Offline Toosmall  
#26 Posted : 28 March 2023 02:05:58(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 566
Location: Sydney
When I joined 2 motors to together, filing half of the shaft of each motor at the correct angle offset, to have 6 pole even spread, you realise how small these things are.
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