 Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,422 Location: Montreal, Canada
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Applor and I have been discussing the E19 and a few details concerning the prototype and their lights in the "I want to buy" category and thought it best to move the topic here. I am still curious to know under what conditions the third light might have operated if it was installed on the locomotive or is the model of the prototype incorrect to even have the light mount on it. Was the use of the two lights only under normal running conditions, and the third light used in special circumstances? For context, here is the last post of previous thread to see the short clip of the model (E19) running on applor's layout. Originally Posted by: applor  Well congrats on your purchase. I installed LED's in mine (2 lights) and loksound 3.5 decoder back in the day. Here you can see it in action, pulling the F-train Glückauf as per build from 1955. Blue E 19 12 AB4ü-23 Hecht WR4üe-35 DSG AB4üe-36/52 https://www.tapatalk.com...-8-t3358-s60.html#p39795But yes we can continue discussion on this topic in another thread if you like, start one in the prototype thread if you want to learn more. And ...Here is the link to the thread for background to the discussion. You can only access the previous thread if you are a logged in member of the forum. https://www.marklin-user...Blauer-Enzian#post653629 |
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
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 3 users liked this useful post by Mark5
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,454
Location: DE-NW
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In era IIIa, the third light was not used. It was always on beginning with era IIIb.
In era II and earlier, it was used to convey information to the personnel along the route - at a time when phones were not installed everywhere. It informed about trains not present in the regular schedule.
So for era IIIa, it is a bit stupid that models by Märklin and Fleischmann always show three lights, not two. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS  |
2 users liked this useful post by H0
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 Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,769 Location: Brisbane, Queensland
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The top light in question when used before 1957 mainlines (into era IIIb) is for signal Zg7 (oncoming train signal: a special train is coming from the opposite direction). With the normal control peak signal (signal Zg1), it remained dark. You can read about it in the thread below when I asked the question on Stummiforum in 2011 because I was confused why electric locomotive models representing even before the war had 3 light fixtures, while steam and diesel only had 2. Of course Marklin (and im sure others) always had the top light illuminated even though it would and should normally remain dark; probably because they believed the uninformed would think the model was faulty if the light fixture was there but it was not lit. https://www.stummiforum....e-e-lok-Epoche-IIIa.htmlWhen you know the right terms etc it is also to find the right article about it in wikipedia.de (use google translate) so you can read about it here: https://de.m.wikipedia.o.../Dreilicht-SpitzensignalUnfortunately there are still cases where Marklin release era3a or earlier electric locomotive models but still have the top light lit, such as the 26195 set with E69. In which case I modify the locomotive so the top light is dark. There are also other electric models which do not have the top light from the factory, I am assuming it must be mounted/connected only when it was required - like they do on steam engines and must have done the same on diesels; but the models I am referring to are for example the E71.1 Insider 2022 only has 2 headlights. The Liliput E10 pre-series L132525 also only has the 2 headlights. In the case of E19 12, the revision date for the model I think is 1958 but if you ignore the revision date the model is accurate for era3a assuming you disconnect the top light. You could therefore use the model for era3a or era3b depending if the top light was lit or not. If you use it with 42615 set the top light should remain dark. Of course many railroaders, even those who must know better, still leave the top light on - they probably do not want to modify the model ie. in case of resale. A bit after 1954 but here is E 19 12 (Nuremberg depot) reaches Würzburg main station with an eilzug train. (May 1, 1957)  Those are the DRG standard design E30/36 type eilzug wagons with 8 doors. Unfortunately I don't have any photos from E 19 12 in 1954 specifically. |
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany |
4 users liked this useful post by applor
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Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,422 Location: Montreal, Canada
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Thank you for the great photo and links Applor. If and when I can get to it, I think I would like to wire/set the lights and decoder so that I use one function to turn the top light on/off when required to model various time frames. Will have to read Strummi with deepl.com translation to see if I can understand more. Wonder if anyone reading this has ever set multiple light functions with their decoders and how one would go about it. Originally Posted by: applor ....
In the case of E19 12, the revision date for the model I think is 1958 but if you ignore the revision date the model is accurate for era3a assuming you disconnect the top light.
You could therefore use the model for era3a or era3b depending if the top light was lit or not. If you use it with 42615 set the top light should remain dark.
Of course many railroaders, even those who must know better, still leave the top light on - they probably do not want to modify the model ie. in case of resale.
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DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,454
Location: DE-NW
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Originally Posted by: applor The Liliput E10 pre-series L132525 also only has the 2 headlights. Yep. The second footnote on the Wikipedia article leads to this statement: "Nachdem die Verständigungsmöglichkeiten auch zu den Bahn- und Schrankenwärtern nach dem Zweiten Weltkrieg stark verbessert und nachprüfbar wurden, verwendete die DB die Signale Zg 7 und Zg 8 ab 1951 nicht mehr und schaffte sie 1957 auch offiziell ab." DB no longer used Zg 7 and Zg 8 after 1951 - and some locos built after that date (like E 10 pre-series and V 200 pre-series or the railbus) only had two headlights. The triple headlight was tested in 1956 and became mandatory in 1957, so the third headlight was added to the rolling stock that did not yet have it. Zg 7 came into use in 1935. E 71.1 had been built long before that year, so it had only two permanent headlights - and probably a hook for a temporary third light. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
4 users liked this useful post by H0
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Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,769 Location: Brisbane, Queensland
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Originally Posted by: H0 Originally Posted by: applor The Liliput E10 pre-series L132525 also only has the 2 headlights. Yep. The second footnote on the Wikipedia article leads to this statement: "Nachdem die Verständigungsmöglichkeiten auch zu den Bahn- und Schrankenwärtern nach dem Zweiten Weltkrieg stark verbessert und nachprüfbar wurden, verwendete die DB die Signale Zg 7 und Zg 8 ab 1951 nicht mehr und schaffte sie 1957 auch offiziell ab." DB no longer used Zg 7 and Zg 8 after 1951 - and some locos built after that date (like E 10 pre-series and V 200 pre-series or the railbus) only had two headlights. The triple headlight was tested in 1956 and became mandatory in 1957, so the third headlight was added to the rolling stock that did not yet have it. Zg 7 came into use in 1935. E 71.1 had been built long before that year, so it had only two permanent headlights - and probably a hook for a temporary third light. Thanks Tom for the explanation that all makes sense now, always learning something new! Quite interesting. Still waiting on a manufacturer to give us a pre-series V200 with two lights  Originally Posted by: Mark5 Thank you for the great photo and links Applor.
If and when I can get to it, I think I would like to wire/set the lights and decoder so that I use one function to turn the top light on/off when required to model various time frames. Will have to read Strummi with deepl.com translation to see if I can understand more.
It is not difficult as there is usually a spare aux output you can use for the top LED. However this E19 has bulbs from factory so in this case you'd need to install LED's (with resistors) for each of the lights, or a shared LED for the two bottom and a separate one up top wired to a spare aux. |
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany |
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