Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline Michael4  
#1 Posted : 14 September 2022 11:52:27(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 553
Location: England, South Coast
I've just been carrying out some repairs to sets of points making use of bits from the standard curve 5100.

It got me thinking...

A single piece of 5100 has:

1 x track bed
2 x rails
2 x fishplates (joiners)
1 x stud track
2 x central insulators
2 x plastic end insulators
2 x joint contact 'tongues'

Twelve components in all for the most basic unit of track.


One assumes that over the years assembly of these components would have become increasingly automated. The manufacture of the components would have been straightforward but automated assembly, presumably in a number of stages, would be interesting to understand.

Any info out there?
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Michael4
Offline river6109  
#2 Posted : 14 September 2022 13:12:17(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,998
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
K=track is much simpler BigGrin or could be simpler
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by river6109
Offline JohnjeanB  
#3 Posted : 14 September 2022 14:48:18(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,187
Location: Paris, France
Hi Michael
Here is a video about the Märklin manufacturing in 1963
See, from 3:50 into the video for tracks' production


Cheers

Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
marshalling yard
thanks 11 users liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline ccranium  
#4 Posted : 14 September 2022 20:04:58(UTC)
ccranium


Joined: 30/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 27
Location: Seattle area
Thank you, Jean! What a find; the assortment of machines and manual processes is impressive even today, but these were all conceived on drafting tables using paper, pencil and pantographs. I wonder how, if at all, they pursued continuous improvement and changed the processing over time as someone said "I think we could do this step faster/more consistently?"
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by ccranium
Offline JohnjeanB  
#5 Posted : 14 September 2022 20:31:18(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,187
Location: Paris, France
Hi
Originally Posted by: ccranium Go to Quoted Post
I wonder how, if at all, they pursued continuous improvement and changed the processing over time as someone said "I think we could do this step faster/more consistently?"

Regarding Märklin, I am not a specialist but:
- in the 50s, Märklin was using the traditional drawing board and sliding rule
- in the 80s, Märklin started using computers for designing items,
- in 2010 onwards, Märklin uses Dassault System's Catia (France) a sophisticated design systems used by Boing, Airbus, Dassault aviation and many more. This last system allows to simulate the stress, wear, mobility this means that the prototype phase is reduced to a minimum (almost zero).

Regarding the topic above, M Track manufacturing has evolved drastically from its introduction in 1956 up to 1999.
The first M tracks, even when brand new, was not very precise (ballast not the same level), a little dangerous (I cut myself many times handling new M track in 1960s) and not very prototypical (huge side hole for cables, visible clamps to hold the stud line, etc)

Later (in the 70s and 80s) the M track was modernised:
- small switch lanterns to render compatible long passenger cars
- cosmetic redesign of M tracks so that contact clamps and stud insulation is much more discrete
- precision tooling making that the joint between new M tracks becomes invisible
- redesign of R1 switches allowing a much smaller track spacing
- redesign the double slip switches for cost cutting (no more electrical switches for the current feed)
- redesign, cost cutting of M tracks: removing the paint code under the track (lightmaroon or kaki replaced with metal color)
- replacement of old contact track with slider-operated, directional contact tracks
- new switches were introduced: 3-way switch, double curved switch
- new compact solenoids to drive switches.

Yes this track ended being fabulous 1980-2000 BUT its precision is vastly overtaken by the C Track
Cheers

Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
marshalling yard
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline Michael4  
#6 Posted : 14 September 2022 23:20:14(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 553
Location: England, South Coast
Thanks for all this information. The machinery to make M track loos fascinating, I wonder if it still exists.

One question about C track. Can you stand on it, straighten it out afterwards and use it again and again?!
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Michael4
Offline Alsterstreek  
#7 Posted : 14 September 2022 23:43:25(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,323
Location: Southwesternmost
Originally Posted by: Michael4 Go to Quoted Post


One question about C track. Can you stand on it, straighten it out afterwards and use it again and again?!


As C-track does not deform when stepped on, there is no need to straighten it out before using it again. During a carpet train session, my not exactly lightweight father-in-law once stepped on a Märklin train that was standing on C-track. A flat car in the consist was flattened, but the C-track did not suffer at all.

Edited by user 15 September 2022 10:15:29(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
Offline kiwiAlan  
#8 Posted : 15 September 2022 00:57:29(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 7,001
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Michael4 Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for all this information. The machinery to make M track loos fascinating, I wonder if it still exists.


It all looks to me like standard powered presses that would be used in almost any machine shop. The only "modification" is the jig that is made to suit the parts being assembled.

But I am intrigued that one woman early in the sequence uses a machine press to put the parts on the track bed of a double slip, and then moves the piece to an adjacent purely hand operated press to perform a second operation - which I presume is just pushing the folding tabs down properly because it couldn't be done is the same operation as everything else on the powered press.

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
Offline Michael4  
#9 Posted : 15 September 2022 23:18:49(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 553
Location: England, South Coast
Jean's post reminds me that I did not know of the purpose or existence of 5206 until I was over 70...
Offline mvd71  
#10 Posted : 16 September 2022 08:17:23(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,485
Location: Auckland,
The films from that era are fantastic. It often feels like it was a magical era in which almost anything was possible with the technology of the age.

Also what is neat is that the human component with the technology was still there.

We can compare the modern Märklin and in so many ways the detail, control, and a myriad of other things are better. But the artwork of a 1960’s Märklin loco box captured the imagination in a way that nothing produced today seems to do.

Thanks for sharing the film!

Btw, c track does deform if the right person steps on it 😊
Offline Alsterstreek  
#11 Posted : 16 September 2022 08:26:21(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,323
Location: Southwesternmost
Originally Posted by: mvd71 Go to Quoted Post


Btw, c track does deform if the right person steps on it 😊
It would rather crack then Wink.
However, I dare to claim that if the "right" person making C track crack stepped on M track, the latter could not be straigthened out anymore.RollEyes

Edited by user 16 September 2022 15:42:45(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline JohnjeanB  
#12 Posted : 16 September 2022 17:59:54(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,187
Location: Paris, France
No this was true in the past with aging, early C track pieces
With recent C track a "normal or overweight" person can step on it PROVIDED the track is on a FLAT surface and provided the soles are normal (rubber or leather, no nails, etc)
With very old C track (1996) more than 10 years after purchase, a simple 20 cm drop on hard floor was enough to break it but not any more
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
marshalling yard
Offline BenP  
#13 Posted : 16 September 2022 20:01:52(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 145
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
No this was true in the past with aging, early C track pieces
With recent C track a "normal or overweight" person can step on it PROVIDED the track is on a FLAT surface and provided the soles are normal (rubber or leather, no nails, etc)
With very old C track (1996) more than 10 years after purchase, a simple 20 cm drop on hard floor was enough to break it but not any more
Jean


Just a matter of time until Märklin returns to (updated) metal track ;-)
Ben
Digital M track layout with mostly vintage rolling stock and accessories.
Offline mvd71  
#14 Posted : 16 September 2022 21:59:12(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,485
Location: Auckland,
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
No this was true in the past with aging, early C track pieces
With recent C track a "normal or overweight" person can step on it PROVIDED the track is on a FLAT surface and provided the soles are normal (rubber or leather, no nails, etc)
With very old C track (1996) more than 10 years after purchase, a simple 20 cm drop on hard floor was enough to break it but not any more
Jean


Just a matter of time until Märklin returns to (updated) metal track ;-)
Ben


Less use of plastics. Environmental benefit? BigGrin
Offline Alsterstreek  
#15 Posted : 16 September 2022 22:59:58(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,323
Location: Southwesternmost
In my youth I used M track for one decade before discarding it. After returning to the hobby after several decades, I am using C track for two decades now, and no end in sight. So, for me C track is more long-lasting and thus ecological. Flapper
Offline JohnjeanB  
#16 Posted : 17 September 2022 01:58:28(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,187
Location: Paris, France
Hi
I started Märklin by using M track the 1960 version and the 1980 version (quite a significant improvement). Then I switched to C track from 1996.

C Track was great at beginning but then I start wondering what these small plastic bits were on the floor. I found later they were small plastic springs to lock C track in place.
I learned about the C Track plastic aging rapidly and then Märklin changed the plastic used, same look but 2 things:
- they slowed the aging process quite a lot by changing the type of plastic used
- they also start embossing the manufactirng date under each track piece

Well I still have this C track but still also have my M track, I also purchased a box full of "Modelgleis" 3800 and 3900. This is a sort of super M Track, with metal bed, plastic sleepers, 3 individually insulated rails, large radii (1.20m and 1.10m diameters), at the time, twice the price of the new M Gleis (in 1956 when all 3 types were available: the M track, the Modellgleis and the old 3 rail track 3600).

So I can compare anytime all those 4 types of tracks and my conclusions are:
- C track is now very robust and very precise (much more than M track or the 1953 Modellgleis)
- C Track needs painting of the rails sides in rust brown and then are perfect
- now the arrival of the sleek DSS (Double SlipSwitch, 24720 DKW) crowns this C track and I am sure Märklin will work to make it better
- Agreed, C track switch motors are not perfect but when shorting the end-position microswitches they last very very long.
- I cannot see any noticeable aging of the C track (surely there is one but much slower now)

- M track or ModellGleis are not very precise and you can see wagons dancing on the tracks when they cross a switch or a DSS (Double SlipSwitch)
- agreed M track have little motor issues on switches (except internal bending of the core path inside the coils when they heated too much)
- M track is deliciously kitch and associated with high-class toy-trains.
- 3 rail track (3600) was not stable in bed color, in rail types (hollow iron or extruded blackened copper) or in switch motor types (one coil, 2 coils)

Just my opinion
Cheers

Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
marshalling yard
Offline BenP  
#17 Posted : 17 September 2022 05:52:59(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 145
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi
I started Märklin by using M track the 1960 version and the 1980 version (quite a significant improvement). Then I switched to C track from 1996.

C Track was great at beginning but then I start wondering what these small plastic bits were on the floor. I found later they were small plastic springs to lock C track in place.
I learned about the C Track plastic aging rapidly and then Märklin changed the plastic used, same look but 2 things:
- they slowed the aging process quite a lot by changing the type of plastic used
- they also start embossing the manufactirng date under each track piece

Well I still have this C track but still also have my M track, I also purchased a box full of "Modelgleis" 3800 and 3900. This is a sort of super M Track, with metal bed, plastic sleepers, 3 individually insulated rails, large radii (1.20m and 1.10m diameters), at the time, twice the price of the new M Gleis (in 1956 when all 3 types were available: the M track, the Modellgleis and the old 3 rail track 3600).

So I can compare anytime all those 4 types of tracks and my conclusions are:
- C track is now very robust and very precise (much more than M track or the 1953 Modellgleis)
- C Track needs painting of the rails sides in rust brown and then are perfect
- now the arrival of the sleek DSS (Double SlipSwitch, 24720 DKW) crowns this C track and I am sure Märklin will work to make it better
- Agreed, C track switch motors are not perfect but when shorting the end-position microswitches they last very very long.
- I cannot see any noticeable aging of the C track (surely there is one but much slower now)

- M track or ModellGleis are not very precise and you can see wagons dancing on the tracks when they cross a switch or a DSS (Double SlipSwitch)
- agreed M track have little motor issues on switches (except internal bending of the core path inside the coils when they heated too much)
- M track is deliciously kitch and associated with high-class toy-trains.
- 3 rail track (3600) was not stable in bed color, in rail types (hollow iron or extruded blackened copper) or in switch motor types (one coil, 2 coils)

Just my opinion
Cheers

Jean


I seem to have 3 families of M track with pukos (studs). One with half round side cutouts, from my youth (pre-1970); with variably beige tints and surface roughness. One with smaller, square side cutout that is younger model (1980+?) and more consistent color. Third, M tracks without the puko end connection showing on top and with folded edges. Looks are best of the bunch, but deforms too easily when screwed down. Is this last version of M?
All have lovely clackaty-clack sound of yesteryear.
Digital M track layout with mostly vintage rolling stock and accessories.
Offline Mr. Ron  
#18 Posted : 17 September 2022 06:39:36(UTC)
Mr. Ron

United States   
Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 261
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi
Originally Posted by: ccranium Go to Quoted Post
I wonder how, if at all, they pursued continuous improvement and changed the processing over time as someone said "I think we could do this step faster/more consistently?"

Regarding Märklin, I am not a specialist but:
- in the 50s, Märklin was using the traditional drawing board and sliding rule
- in the 80s, Märklin started using computers for designing items,
- in 2010 onwards, Märklin uses Dassault System's Catia (France) a sophisticated design systems used by Boing, Airbus, Dassault aviation and many more. This last system allows to simulate the stress, wear, mobility this means that the prototype phase is reduced to a minimum (almost zero).

Regarding the topic above, M Track manufacturing has evolved drastically from its introduction in 1956 up to 1999.
The first M tracks, even when brand new, was not very precise (ballast not the same level), a little dangerous (I cut myself many times handling new M track in 1960s) and not very prototypical (huge side hole for cables, visible clamps to hold the stud line, etc)

Later (in the 70s and 80s) the M track was modernised:
- small switch lanterns to render compatible long passenger cars
- cosmetic redesign of M tracks so that contact clamps and stud insulation is much more discrete
- precision tooling making that the joint between new M tracks becomes invisible
- redesign of R1 switches allowing a much smaller track spacing
- redesign the double slip switches for cost cutting (no more electrical switches for the current feed)
- redesign, cost cutting of M tracks: removing the paint code under the track (lightmaroon or kaki replaced with metal color)
- replacement of old contact track with slider-operated, directional contact tracks
- new switches were introduced: 3-way switch, double curved switch
- new compact solenoids to drive switches.

Yes this track ended being fabulous 1980-2000 BUT its precision is vastly overtaken by the C Track
Cheers

Jean


I am surprised that Germany recovered so quickly from the war. It must have been about 16/17 years after the war that Germany was again manufacturing and that the manufacturing was for model trains and not other "non-hobby" manufacturing. Of course, the VW bug came out in 1950, I think. A 1959 Karmann Ghia was my second car followed by a 62 micro bus, two of the nicest cars I have ever owned.
Offline Michael4  
#19 Posted : 17 September 2022 09:57:46(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 553
Location: England, South Coast
One great advantage of M track is that is, nowadays, very cheap and at times free.

There must be many thousands of boxes of the stuff in attics all round the world!
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Michael4
Offline ccranium  
#20 Posted : 18 September 2022 20:12:46(UTC)
ccranium


Joined: 30/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 27
Location: Seattle area
"I am surprised that Germany recovered so quickly from the war. It must have been about 16/17 years after the war that Germany was again manufacturing and that the manufacturing was for model trains and not other "non-hobby" manufacturing."
My first Marklin set was the one my Dad got at the US Army PX while stationed near Heidelberg in 1948. My understanding is that Marklin restarted train production in 1947.
Users browsing this topic
OceanSpiders 2.0
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2022, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.845 seconds.