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Offline Michael4  
#1 Posted : 17 August 2022 17:39:46(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 642
Location: England, South Coast
It is a while since I built or rebuilt my layout, my memory is not what it was.

A question about using multiple transformers. If I remember anything incorrectly please tell me.

Obviously it is important to make sure that the polarity of the transformers is the same. This I remember. It is not difficult to check with UK plugs.

The positive (red) should be kept separate.

The negative (brown) can be connected at the transformers

This is the one I am not sure about:

The accessory power (yellow) can be connected at the transformers or should it be kept separate for each track or is it simply a question of load?
Offline PacoM  
#2 Posted : 17 August 2022 19:19:44(UTC)
PacoM

Spain   
Joined: 20/08/2020(UTC)
Posts: 60
Technically, identification between "brown" and "negative" is not accurate, since Alternate Current implies a change of polarity 50 or 60 times in a second. So, let us say "ground" or "common".
Red and yellow identify two different power sources: "red" and "brown" (common) supply power to the track (from 0 to 16V, and 24V to change direction), while "yellow" and "brown" (always common) supply power to accesories (16V): turnouts, lights...
If polarity ofseveral transformers is the same, you may keep in contact the "brown" connectors, and it is done in practice when you divide the layout so that each transformer governs a section of the track: no isolation of the rails is necessary, only in the central contacts.
Each "yellow" contact should supply a number of accesories, in order not to overload that transformer.

Edited by user 18 August 2022 11:31:28(UTC)  | Reason: correct V

Offline cookee_nz  
#3 Posted : 18 August 2022 12:12:31(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,953
Location: Paremata, Wellington
As PacoM states...

Brown (O) can be considered as 'ground' or 'earth', (from the German "Masse") or more what we might think of as 'common' so yes the brown outputs can be safely joined together.

Red (B) and Yellow (L) on the other hand must not be mixed with the same outputs of other Trafo's, the specific difference is that Red is a Controlled output, matching the Red knob, while Yellow is uncontrolled.

So long as the power requirements don't exceed the rated output of each Trafo, you should have reliable operation.

Hope this helps

Cookee
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline Michael4  
#4 Posted : 18 August 2022 17:45:38(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 642
Location: England, South Coast
Thanks,

So the accessories (points/signals etc etc) on each track must be kept separate from other tracks and powered by that track's transformer unless the load becomes too great?

If the load is too great I can employ something like trafo 6611.
Offline PacoM  
#5 Posted : 18 August 2022 18:59:16(UTC)
PacoM

Spain   
Joined: 20/08/2020(UTC)
Posts: 60
In order to make it clearer, is your track “M” type or not (C or K)? In any case, if there are two transformers that govern each the train in one section of track, it is indifferent whether the accesories belong to one section or the other, whether they are supplied by one transformer or the other or some by one transformer and and others by the other.
Offline Michael4  
#6 Posted : 18 August 2022 19:35:02(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 642
Location: England, South Coast
All M track. Thanks I think understand what you are saying.

I think what everyone has told me is that the yellow supply from different trafos should not be joined together.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Michael4
H0
Offline BenP  
#7 Posted : 18 August 2022 20:30:47(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: Michael4 Go to Quoted Post
All M track. Thanks I think understand what you are saying.

I think what everyone has told me is that the yellow supply from different trafos should not be joined together.


Yes
Brown join is fine; common ground.
Red join not. Track power (segmented sections).
Yellow join not. Accessories power (anywhere).
Use new white transformers and ditch old blues; latter are not protected well for shorts and overload.
Digital M (+ some K) track layout with mostly vintage rolling stock and accessories, and small Z scale layout.
https://youtube.com/play...0kgVYbh0CeDTF-bYXoD_2-V9
Offline PacoM  
#8 Posted : 18 August 2022 21:16:45(UTC)
PacoM

Spain   
Joined: 20/08/2020(UTC)
Posts: 60
Originally Posted by: Michael4 Go to Quoted Post
All M track. Thanks I think understand what you are saying.

I think what everyone has told me is that the yellow supply from different trafos should not be joined together.


Exactly.
With M track, all the track is grounded, connected to ground (brown) with the only exception of the central line of studs. Signals that have a sort of fork in their base may be grounded (connected to brown) by inserting that piece under the rail.
Offline cookee_nz  
#9 Posted : 18 August 2022 22:30:15(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,953
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Michael4 Go to Quoted Post
All M track. Thanks I think understand what you are saying.

I think what everyone has told me is that the yellow supply from different trafos should not be joined together.


Yes
Brown join is fine; common ground.
Red join not. Track power (segmented sections).
Yellow join not. Accessories power (anywhere).
Use new white transformers and ditch old blues; latter are not protected well for shorts and overload.


This can be true in some cases but not all.

Blue Trafo's with Plastic cases are generally fine, and even more so if being used with Loco's and accessories from the same era or older.

The latest series of Blue Trafo's with METAL cases 'may' be ok but the PVC mains cord should be checked regularly for deterioration.

Older Blue Metal Trafo's from the 1950's (280A style) have well-known issues with the rubber insulation perishing on the mains cords, these MUST be replaced with a modern cord and preferably by a qualified appliance or electrical technician who can also do the safety tests.

Generally, although the cords fail, the rest of the unit is usually in good condition internally and again, fine to use with Loco's and Accessories of the same era.

Quite apart from that, replacing multiple Transformers (unnecessarily) could be an expensive exercise. Safety of course is not measured in $ & c but some caution and common sense will win out.

Cheers

Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline Michael4  
#10 Posted : 18 August 2022 23:24:55(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 642
Location: England, South Coast
Fear not, I have blue plastic trafos and white plastic trafos. The metal ones (blue and a scary looking black one) are in a box at the back of the cupboard.
Offline hxmiesa  
#11 Posted : 19 August 2022 08:19:08(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,520
Location: Spain
As stated, BROWN should be connected together among all trafos.

Regarding the polarity; Dont trust the wall-plugs, but DO the actual test:
Once BROWN has been connected between 2 trafos, set the speed-knob to "100" on both of them. Grab a 16-24V light bulb, and connect one wire to RED on trafo 1 and the other wire to RED on trafo 2. The bulb should remain dark!
If the bulb lights up, then one of the trafos wall-plugs must be TURNED 180º.
-If your british-type wall-plugs doesnt allow that, the plug must be remade by cutting the cable and re-connecting the wires.

Once BROWN is shared on all trafos, the accessories can be freely connected to the yellow connector on any of the trafos, as long as the total power consumption doesnt surpass the trafos rating; If you use the trafo for running trains, you might calculate around 10VA for each loco, plus 1VA for each bulp (lights, signals, interior passenger coach lighting).
Old-style coach-lighting can really add up, with 2 bulps per coach!
Solenoid actuated accessories consumes around 3VA, but only during their actual activation, and ususally they are only activated one at a time.
Older blue plastic trafos can give around 30VA and the newer white ones around 32VA.
(Older blue ones are great for powering lights and accesories!)
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by hxmiesa
Offline PJMärklin  
#12 Posted : 19 August 2022 12:06:05(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,210
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post

… Regarding the polarity; Dont trust the wall-plugs, but DO the actual test …

That is the principal concern with a reversible two-pin household plug : it depends on how it is plugged in for correct connection to “active” vs “neutral” connection.

Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post

… If your british-type wall-plugs doesnt allow that, the plug must be remade by cutting the cable and re-connecting the wires.

Laugh It is not that the “British-type” (and also the plug type used in Australasia, South Africa, South America and other countries) “does not allow that” - it is the situation that this plug type ensures correct connection to the “active” vs “neutral” points in the first place .

Regards,

PJBigGrin
Offline BenP  
#13 Posted : 19 August 2022 12:14:26(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post


(Older blue ones are great for powering lights and accesories!)


For dedicated lights transformer, you can also use red (instead of yellow) and brown, allowing you to dim them (variable voltage).
Digital M (+ some K) track layout with mostly vintage rolling stock and accessories, and small Z scale layout.
https://youtube.com/play...0kgVYbh0CeDTF-bYXoD_2-V9
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by BenP
Offline 1borna  
#14 Posted : 01 September 2022 21:05:38(UTC)
1borna

Croatia   
Joined: 21/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,346
Location: Hrvatska
No one answered Why can't it be connected next to the brown exits and the yellow exits?!
In this case, it can happen when only one transformer is connected to the current that current is induced in the other and then we also have 230 volts on its plug, which can burn us well (or worse).
I experienced it when I was very young and it is not very pleasant. Later, I always permanently connect several transformers to a current distributor with several inputs, so that I then turn them all on at once.
Offline PacoM  
#15 Posted : 02 September 2022 09:51:11(UTC)
PacoM

Spain   
Joined: 20/08/2020(UTC)
Posts: 60
That is why yellow outputs should never be connected together
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