Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline marklin61  
#1 Posted : 29 March 2022 09:12:03(UTC)
marklin61


Joined: 05/01/2007(UTC)
Posts: 102
Location: Tuki Tuki Valley
Looking for a possible solution to a problem I am having with my new RAm Tee (39706). Before I get into the detail I want to give some background.!

I am currently halfway through a layout build that measures 10m x 7m. It is a large build, and most of the track has been laid and tested ( Admittedly with a few old test locos.) I have Windigipet PC and Cs3 plus as the main control system along with 10 Boosters. Now this is where the problem begins.! Each side of the layout consists of 5 Boosters each ( 5x Left and 5x Right sides). Each Booster section has their power feed Isolated. Then the left and right sides have their power & both rail sides isolated.
I have been testing the layout as I move forward with the build and everything appears to work correctly.
Now I am at a stage where I wanted to test with a series of different locos to see if I had any clearance or function issues before proceeding further.
So far the only issue I have is with my new RAm Tee. While travelling in the forward direction ( Power car at the front) the RAm seems to work just fine across the whole layout, no issue at all. But while travelling in the reverse direction the RAm Tee will stop ( I mean stop with no lights or sound) at each of the booster transition points between the left and right side. I have to push the loco so both wheel sets passed the fully isolated section then off it goes. It doesn’t happen between the common booster sections only the fully isolated sections and only in the reverse direction. All my other locos with a single slider seem to work fine both in the forward and reverse direction.
I am hoping there might be a programming procedure to correct this obscure problem or something I haven’t set up correctly. Any suggestions will be appreciated. Unfortunately my layout requires both forward and reverse travel , so travelling in one direction isn’t an option. But being a beautiful set I am keen to fine a resolution and any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Steve...............

Life with Pinot Noir, Chocolate and Marklin trains..........
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by marklin61
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 29 March 2022 09:34:14(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,443
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: marklin61 Go to Quoted Post
Then the left and right sides have their power & both rail sides isolated.
Why are both rails isolated? Is this required by your booster manufacturer?
I can imagine that this is the root of the problem.
Maybe just bridge the outer rails when the train stops to see if it will carry on (unless bridging is forbidden by the booster company).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline marklin61  
#3 Posted : 29 March 2022 10:01:31(UTC)
marklin61


Joined: 05/01/2007(UTC)
Posts: 102
Location: Tuki Tuki Valley
The reason for isolating both rails was to avoid an overload condition with the number of Boosters I have. My understanding is Marklin recommended only a max 300VA on a single earth. By separating the layout into 2 lots of 5 booster each, I would avoid this overload condition with electrical separation of both rails and power feed. I did exactly as you suggested with a heavy duty earth wire and bridged the left and right sections and it works... But now I m asking myself have I just push the boundaries of the system and Marklins own recommendations of no more than 300VA.? 10 Boosters is alot more than 300 VA of power. Each booster (60174)has a rating of around 58 VA, which makes my system 580 VA..!!!
Steve...............

Life with Pinot Noir, Chocolate and Marklin trains..........
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 29 March 2022 10:05:39(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,443
Location: DE-NW
So the Märklin RAm cannot work in reverse direction when you follow Märklin's guidelines.

How many trains will be running at the same time? Do you really need that many boosters?
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline marklin61  
#5 Posted : 29 March 2022 10:17:01(UTC)
marklin61


Joined: 05/01/2007(UTC)
Posts: 102
Location: Tuki Tuki Valley
On the face of it, it does look like an oversight.... unless I have missed something.? I have already reduced the number of boosters I planned to use. It not so much the number of Boosters, its more of where the trains will be at any given time. I planned to have the boosters power each section of the layout with a maximum 3 trains at any one time controlled between signals blocks. I think 10 booster is about right for the size, even if I could reduce this by a couple I would be still way over Marklin's recommended limit.
Steve...............

Life with Pinot Noir, Chocolate and Marklin trains..........
Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 29 March 2022 10:33:23(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,443
Location: DE-NW
The left/right splitting is part of the problem as trains often pass between left and right.

An inner/outer splitting for the double isolation would reduce transitions of trains across the double isolation.

A different approach would be changing the wiring inside the RAm. It seems to use the centre-rail on the control car, but the outer-rail on the motor unit. This makes it stop on your isolated spot.
You may encounter the same issue with other trains that have two sliders for push/pull operation.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#7 Posted : 29 March 2022 10:49:53(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,771
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: marklin61 Go to Quoted Post
10 Boosters is alot more than 300 VA of power. Each booster (60174)has a rating of around 58 VA, which makes my system 580 VA..!!!


Only if you are using the 60va power supply's to power your boosters. If you were using the 100va power supply's......

On that note why don't you use the 100va power supply's and reduce the number of booster sections? I know Marklin doesn't recommend this but plenty of folks on the forum use them for H0. The important is to make sure all of your feeder wires and power bus wiring uses a minimum wire size of 0.75mm2.

thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Bigdaddynz
Offline mike c  
#8 Posted : 29 March 2022 17:00:55(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 8,229
Location: Montreal, QC
The 39706 is designed to switch power source so that the power comes from the leading slider depending on the direction that the trainset is travelling.
I do not know if this includes all functions (lighting) or whether lighting is still powered from the slider at the rear of the train.
I also do not know whether all power connections are via the current conducting coupler or whether each bogie still serves as ground (return) for that coach.

If we assume that all power is collected from the leading slider and that the return is also connected via the PC board and couplers, then there should be no issues affecting the power supply.
If like the older 3471/3071, the power is collected from the leading slider, but the lights are powered by the trailing slider, then there maybe some instances where the train is receiving power from two sections. If there is some bleed over from lights to motor, this may cause some issues.

It has been a while since I have seen a Maerklin model where the instructions include a wiring diagram. Normally, the instructions include basic instructions and an exploded diagram.
I don't recall seeing any documentation which identifies what current is transmitted by which contact via the couplings.

The problem may be that the trainset is trying to collect power from the lead slider (in this case, the pilot coach), which is in one booster section, but the powerhead (motor) is connected to the ground/return in another booster section and the voltage loop is not completed, as the returns are not interconnected.

I would suggest that the solution may be to connect the live from each booster to the centre rails of each section, using separators between each section. The return wires should go from the boosters to a common terminal, which would then be connected to each section. As long as the boosters are all properly connected to the mains and are properly wired to ensure polarity, you should not have any issues.

Another solution would be to come up with a system where there is a neutral (switchable) section between each booster zone and the train would drive in powered by the section that it is leaving and the section would then switch over to the next booster once the last car tripped a sensor which would cut off power supply A and trigger power supply B for that zone. This way, the train would not straddle two zones at the same time.

Regards

Mike C
Offline mike c  
#9 Posted : 29 March 2022 17:11:22(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 8,229
Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: marklin61 Go to Quoted Post
Looking for a possible solution to a problem I am having with my new RAm Tee (39706). Before I get into the detail I want to give some background.!

I am currently halfway through a layout build that measures 10m x 7m. It is a large build, and most of the track has been laid and tested ( Admittedly with a few old test locos.) I have Windigipet PC and Cs3 plus as the main control system along with 10 Boosters. Now this is where the problem begins.! Each side of the layout consists of 5 Boosters each ( 5x Left and 5x Right sides). Each Booster section has their power feed Isolated. Then the left and right sides have their power & both rail sides isolated.



You don't state whether your layout consists of a single track or of two or more parallel tracks. Am I to take it that you have split your layout into "left" and "right" and each side has been divided into 5 sections? It is also not clear whether the CS3 + is directly powering any section of track (in addition to the boosters).
10m x 7m (30+ ft x 21+ft) is a pretty large surface, especially if we are talking multiple tracks.
If you have parallel tracks, does each track have it's own sections or are all tracks in a certain location connected to a particular booster?
Perhaps you can limit your zones to a single track, which might allow you to have larger sections per booster?
The need for boosters depends on the size of each section, but also related to the number of trains likely to be in any one section at any time.

Regards

Mike C
Offline JohnjeanB  
#10 Posted : 29 March 2022 17:18:06(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,563
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: marklin61 Go to Quoted Post
The reason for isolating both rails was to avoid an overload condition with the number of Boosters I have. My understanding is Marklin recommended only a max 300VA on a single earth. By separating the layout into 2 lots of 5 booster each, I would avoid this overload condition with electrical separation of both rails and power feed. I did exactly as you suggested with a heavy duty earth wire and bridged the left and right sections and it works... But now I m asking myself have I just push the boundaries of the system and Marklins own recommendations of no more than 300VA.? 10 Boosters is alot more than 300 VA of power. Each booster (60174)has a rating of around 58 VA, which makes my system 580 VA..!!!

Hi Steve
The result of isolating both output (B and O) on each booster results in the RAm TEE stopping. Why?
Because the ground pick-up is in the loco (no switch-over there) while the slider of the rear is used because you run backwards.
So this is normal and the simple result of your improper wiring
I don't know which type of Boosters you are using. Definitely with Märklin 60175, only the center rail (stud) needs isolating.
There is NO risk of overload (adding all the current from each individual booster) by doing this.
The only recommended practice is to avoid stopping trains where the power feed changes (risk to connect both boosters in parallel) for a long period of time.
No slider rocker needed either

So don't touch your RAm, it is very fine. Update the wiring
Cheers
Jean
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 29 March 2022 17:27:31(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,443
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
The return wires should go from the boosters to a common terminal, which would then be connected to each section. As long as the boosters are all properly connected to the mains and are properly wired to ensure polarity, you should not have any issues.
He wrote that he uses 10 boosters with a total capacity of about 600 VA.

In that case Märklin strongly recommends not having common ground between all boosters.
The return wire needs a diameter that can handle 600 watts or 30 A without problems.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline franciscohg  
#12 Posted : 29 March 2022 18:35:54(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,298
Location: Patagonia
Hello
As Tom pointed before, with only 3 trains running at any given time, 10 Boosters seems like an excess to me. You will need plenty of feeders to ensure power distribution, but not so many booster, i think
Regardsd
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by franciscohg
Offline kiwiAlan  
#13 Posted : 29 March 2022 22:46:52(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,475
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
The return wires should go from the boosters to a common terminal, which would then be connected to each section. As long as the boosters are all properly connected to the mains and are properly wired to ensure polarity, you should not have any issues.
He wrote that he uses 10 boosters with a total capacity of about 600 VA.

In that case Märklin strongly recommends not having common ground between all boosters.
The return wire needs a diameter that can handle 600 watts or 30 A without problems.


Only if you have a slider bridging every center stud isolation point at the same time so that all booster outputs are in parallel at once. marklin have to cover themselves in their advice by allowing for this possibility, but realistically such an event is very low likelihood, and the possible problem really only exists if there was then a fault condition causing them all to be shorted.

Realistically the probability is quite low, especially if there are only a small number of trains running at any one time. Assuming that the isolation points are not in areas such as stations or where a train could stop at a signal but be bridging an isolation point, the the likelihood of a long term bridging of many sections at the same time as a fault occurs becomes very small, and very short term.

I would recommend not isolating the rails except where using an isolated rail for detection purposes.

Offline marklin61  
#14 Posted : 29 March 2022 23:12:17(UTC)
marklin61


Joined: 05/01/2007(UTC)
Posts: 102
Location: Tuki Tuki Valley
Let me clarify a bit more.
Boosters are Marklin 60174 all powered by the 60061 switch mode power supplies. I don’t use the CS 3 for powering the layout. ( although I do use the CS3 to power a separate DCC tram system). The track design is a central terminal station which feeds into a large double track on a U shape baseboard at a number of different elevations. Given the layout size , it was designed with movability in mind for future relocation.
The return earth wire is heavy duty and is rated to handle up to 20 Amps ( Each red power feed is rated at 7 amps)The aim was to run around 15-20 trains via timetabling with no more than 3 trains in any given booster section. Each of the 10 boosters have their respective power feeds isolated from each other and then further divided the layout into 2 separate earth sections ( left and right by isolating both outer rails).This allows me to keep the earth potential below Marklin’s recommended 300VA for each side of the layout.
I should also point out that I have 4 more boosters powering just accessories as I have over 150 decoders used for control of animation using WDP software. Obviously these are not connected to the track system but via the CAN bus.
By bridging the earth return of right and left sides the RAm works in both directions, removing the bridge wire causes the RAm to stall at the isolated transition point while driving in the reverse direction only.
So do I keep the bridge wire in place , but increase the power rating well above Marklins recommendation.? Or reduce the booster and train count to bring it down to under the 300VA threshold.
. I wonder how big layouts handle this issue.? I don’t believe wiring of the boosters is a problem. I think it is more to do with these double slider car sets and how they treat two separate earth points.
Steve...............

Life with Pinot Noir, Chocolate and Marklin trains..........
Offline H0  
#15 Posted : 30 March 2022 09:29:59(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,443
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: marklin61 Go to Quoted Post
I wonder how big layouts handle this issue?
Unless you work for Märklin, feel free to ignore the guidelines issued by Märklin.
Märklin show one approach to achieve a safe layout - but it is not the only possible way.

The 300 VA limit makes sense if you have five red wires and just one brown wire. But if pairs of red and brown are distributed everywhere, then red and brown will have similar loads at a low level.

I remember a post on Stummi's forum: a chap used a 12 V power supply for halogen lamps (8+ A) for an MRR layout using the thinnest possible wires to feed power to lamps. He made a short and the wire vaporized. The wire was too thin to cause a fire because it vaporized, so no harm was done. Bad approach.

It's good to think about the combined power you have and use appropriate wire gauges.

MiWuLa has smoke detectors under the layout. They had a few incidents where locos caused an undetected short and started to melt. When the smoke detector alarm starts, the loco and the track is FUBAR. But no catastrophe happened.
AFAIK they use 2.5 A per booster section, but trains derailing at a booster junction (combined 5 A available) can lead to this issue.
Märklin boosters can handle 5 A, but with 2 such boosters you can get 10 A at a junction - and that's difficult to handle. Good approach to stick to 3 A per booster.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by H0
Offline marklin61  
#16 Posted : 31 March 2022 23:59:44(UTC)
marklin61


Joined: 05/01/2007(UTC)
Posts: 102
Location: Tuki Tuki Valley
Thanks Tom. After reviewing my designed I was able to remove a couple more boosters without effecting my operation to much. I completed some extensive testing last night , with a number of trains running and booster monitoring, all appeared to work without a glitch. The loading at each booster appears to be well within spec , so will leave my bridge in for now. So far so good..!
Now I have a complete loop up and running (after 7 years of building.!) I have become sidetracked with running trains instead of building the layout....My delight of running a loco or two got the better of me after all these years instead of just back and forward testing. But so did the time .... I had to crept into bed at 2.45am and try not to wake my wife, then get up at seven and pretend nothing had happen..!!!!!
Steve...............

Life with Pinot Noir, Chocolate and Marklin trains..........
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by marklin61
Users browsing this topic
Guest (4)
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2025, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.689 seconds.