Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline Mr. Ron  
#1 Posted : 08 June 2021 04:59:47(UTC)
Mr. Ron

United States   
Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
As the title suggests; can I run 2-rail American rolling stock on Marklin M track? I also want to use Kaydee couplers on all stock. I'm sure it can be done although I realize it is not an easy job. I'm comfortable with European passenger rolling stock, but would like to use American style freight cars. Is it possible to use Marklin trucks on American freight cars? Am I asking the impossible or is this something others have done?
I understand the rail profile of K track is different from M track. I seem to recall that somewhere model railroaders were using American rolling stock on K track with no problems; have you heard this?
Another question: How hard is it to take an American prototype engine and change it over to 3-rail? It would appear that all that would be necessary would be to attack a pickup shoe to the American engine and off course change the wiring as needed. Only one wheel of the engine would be picking up track voltage along with the center 3rd rail shoe. A rectifier circuit would be used to power the DC motor.
As a model railroader from a long time ago, I grew up modifying stock to run as I felt needed. There was not a whole lot of model railroad stuff around in the 40's and 50's. One example was a diesel locomotive that was made of wood by a company called Strombecker. It was designed as a static model, but we would find a way to motorize it by adding trucks and a motor. True it was crude by today's standards, but that's all we had to work with. Off course being able to buy "off the shelf" trains in later years made it easy to build a model railroad, but it lacked the ingenuity us older model railroaders were used to. As they say; "old habits are hard to die". When I started back in the 40's, we would use car batteries or big old industrial rectifiers to power our trains. As for track, it was mostly lay your own rails using wood ties and spikes. There was no sectional track as we know it today. In fact, I have been trying to lay my own 3-rail track, but I don't care for the center rail appearance. I can accept puckos, but haven't been able to duplicate it.
Turnouts were another matter. We made our own from stock rail. There were no switch machines. We controlled turnouts with trackside throws or by using chock cable wires and bell cranks routed to and grouped at a central location, like an interlocking station.
I have gotten off track, so please forgive me. I suspect there are some "old timers" in other countries who had to improvise after the war, who didn't have it as good as we in the U.S. and since Marklin is a world wide system, they may have had many difficulties to deal with and solve. It would be interesting to hear from some old timers and their model railroading experiences.
Although I am American, I am struck by the fine detail of European trains made by Marklin and other companies. It seems that Europeans are much more atuned to railroads than us Americans. I guess it must be due to the fact Europeans rely on railroads much more than we do here in the U.S. In fact, down here in south Mississippi, there are no model railroad shops. Everything has to be bought online from a few big companies like Walthers.
When I as growing up in New York City, we were surrounded by 4 or 5 major railroads, so there was a lot of activity which attracted young uns to model railroading. In New York City, there were many model railroad shops. There was one just a few blocks away from my home in Long Island where I could run down on my bike and pick up some rails and spikes and "Truscale" roadbed in a few minutes. That is long gone today. It is all done online.
My earliest encounter with model railroads was with a friend who had a pre war Marklin train set. I remember trying to run my American ho cars on the Marklin track; didn't work. Today, maybe K or C track can accommodate them. Well That is it for now. I could go on and on, but I don't want to bore you any more than I have already. I'm an 86 year old codger who finds it hard to abandon his old ways, although I have adopted the computer mindset out of necessity. Just try to focus on my first paragraph query.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Mr. Ron
Offline kimballthurlow  
#2 Posted : 08 June 2021 07:58:07(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,095
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Ronald,

Of course you can run 2 rail rolling stock on Märklin track.
However I have only done this on C track using Athearn, Atlas, Mantua and other US brand stock.
I don't have M track to try it.
Most of my stock was converted to metal wheels - they roll better.
I also found some stock did not work so well so you have to pick and choose the stock.

I had to ensure that the Kadee trip pin was properly adjusted which you have to do on any brand of track anyway.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by kimballthurlow
Offline hxmiesa  
#3 Posted : 08 June 2021 17:26:27(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,296
Location: Spain
What you CAN do, is to re-gauge the wheels to 13,9 / 13,8 mm inner spacing between flanges.
Also, be sure that you are not using RP25 finescale flanges, as these will hop off the track immediately.
That would make a lot of stuff work right away.

Anyway, there is no guarantee that EVERYTHING will work. Some of the more tricky stock will probably requiere a complete wheel-change to the proper AC-wheel profile.
Adding extra weight can also help keep bouncing waggons better on the track.

Locomotives is another story. You have to ensure a decent power-pickup, and find a place to fit a slider somewhere. If you are running digital, the motor part of it might not be too bad, as newer Märklin controllers work with DCC too, now.
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by hxmiesa
Offline Mr. Ron  
#4 Posted : 08 June 2021 18:13:28(UTC)
Mr. Ron

United States   
Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
Thank you all for your response's. What I will do is to get an HO scale American style car and see how it runs on the M-track. I have about $1000 worth of M-track, so I am committed to M. That means any changes I make will involve using Marklin wheels on American stock.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Mr. Ron
Offline DaleSchultz  
#5 Posted : 08 June 2021 20:47:05(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,891
though I have not done this myself, I have read of many instance where people have done this - and with varying success. My feeling is that as soon as you start mucking about changing couplers and wheels you get yourself into a long period of frustration. You may end up spending more on therapy than the M-track value.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
Offline Alsterstreek  
#6 Posted : 09 June 2021 11:55:02(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,197
Location: Southwesternmost
As I’ve been there, my advice is :

A lot of pain: Abstain !

thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
Offline hvc  
#7 Posted : 09 June 2021 16:04:28(UTC)
hvc

Australia   
Joined: 03/06/2013(UTC)
Posts: 341
Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia
As others have reported, I too have run US rolling stock - they kind of work but with their standard wheels lots of derailments result, because the European H0 track is slightly different gauge and profile. Also many US cars are designed for a minimum radius of Marklin R3 - in other words all M track is too tight a curve for the US rolling stock. European models were designed for smaller houses, and they achieve tighter curves by attaching the coupling to the bogies. US cars with the coupling attached to the frame will struggle to get around M-track curves.

On the subject of laying your own track, you can still do so if you like, and then buy sections of pukos which you can add - a German supplier with lots of track building parts and also pre-fabricated sections is Weichen-Walter - puko rail parts here:

https://www.weichen-walt...ex.php?cPath=29_89_10_27

- Herman
- Herman
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by hvc
Offline Alsterstreek  
#8 Posted : 09 June 2021 17:14:10(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,197
Location: Southwesternmost
Originally Posted by: hvc Go to Quoted Post
On the subject of laying your own track, you can still do so if you like, and then buy sections of pukos which you can add - a German supplier with lots of track building parts and also pre-fabricated sections is Weichen-Walter - puko rail parts here:

https://www.weichen-walt...ex.php?cPath=29_89_10_27



Axel Schnug offers stud contact strips made by Erbert:
http://www.schnug-modell...auf%20Dateien/Pukos.html

SMF market their own stud contact system:
https://smf-modelle.de/z.../14-punktkontakt-system/

Peco offers stud contact strips for track and turnouts:
https://peco-uk.com/search?q=stud
Offline kiwiAlan  
#9 Posted : 09 June 2021 19:57:00(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,359
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: hvc Go to Quoted Post
On the subject of laying your own track, you can still do so if you like, and then buy sections of pukos which you can add - a German supplier with lots of track building parts and also pre-fabricated sections is Weichen-Walter - puko rail parts here:

https://www.weichen-walt...ex.php?cPath=29_89_10_27



Axel Schnug offers stud contact strips made by Erbert:
http://www.schnug-modell...auf%20Dateien/Pukos.html

SMF market their own stud contact system:
https://smf-modelle.de/z.../14-punktkontakt-system/


Looking at the product information in the second link it looks very similar to the Erbert pukos in the first link, to a point (pun BigGrin ) where I think they come out of the same factory.

Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post

Peco offers stud contact strips for track and turnouts:
https://peco-uk.com/search?q=stud


I have seen a layout using the Peco studs (it used to be on the exhibition circuit here in the UK) and quite frankly it was what Americans would call "plug ugly". It is the sort of thing to use only if you are desperate.

I haven't used the Weichen-Walter studs, but have some in my posession and it looks like a very nice product. I haven't seen the Erbert stuff 'in the flesh' but it certainly looks as though it could be a starter.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
Offline jvuye  
#10 Posted : 10 June 2021 16:41:07(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Hi!

Having lived half my life on one side of the Atlantic and the other half here in Europe, may I offer my own version of 65 years of "problem solving"LOL LOL in this instance?

A) US rolling stock on Märklin tracks (excluding Locos) will work in most instances, but as Henrik said you really need to regauge the inner flange distance to 13.8 mm
In practically all cases you *don't* need to look for other axles. (Which can be even more frustrating than derailments!!)

The only problem you may *still* encounter is on switches /crossings where the NMRA style skinny flanges will tend to "dive" in the gaps and give a wobbly look at your train.
Contrary to common belief , the smaller track radii is *usually* not a problem (except very long vehicles ) , since US rolling stock doesn't have buffers!

All my US style rolling stock runs with Kadee couplers . (regardless of maker, wether European, US, Chinese, Japanese, Korean ,etc.)
If height is correctly adjusted they won't interfere with pukos. But in case they sag a bit, you can always bend that little pesky uncoupling c-shaped hook a little more (with the Kadee smart little tool)
And since Kadee has several length of plug-in Kadee coupler with NEM stems, the adaptation of Marklin rolling stock is instantaneous.

B) If you prefer to run Kadee couplers on your European style vehicles, I will certainly *not* discourage you to do so.
They are excellent in all regards , except for electrical connection between vehicles.
Again for all the recent NEM KK pocket equiped European equipment (which makes 99.5% of today's production over here) you can use the Kadee NEM compatibles.

Just do me a favor though : if you have **a lot ** of stock to convert that way, let me know: I want first to buy some Kadee shares, as I suspect their stock will increase in value significantly as a result of your massive purchase Smile Wink Wink

C) Converting US power to 3 rail operation is an all different ball game!
I could write a book (maybe even two! Crying Wink Smile!) on this subject.

Some brands will be more "cooperative" than others.
But always it will require some in depth "surgery" and "remodeling".

My favorite brand here is KATO diesels (and the associated brands like e.g. Steward which I suspect come from the same "hands) , but I have converted equipment from many other makers.
Although the flanges are the skinny version, they seem to work very well on C and Ktrack, (providing they are adjusted to the proper spacing)
I haven't had an Mtrack layout for decades, so hard for me to vouch for their performance in that case.

For example, in KATO's case, I simply disable one of the power bogies, remove the gears as to provide the space and clearance to mount the pick up shoe.
The pick up is mounted like on a Märklin loco, after fitting a custom-machined mounting piece under the bogie. (Usually a strip of platic equiped with a small M2 threaded brass insert)

Then I take the wheels off the remaining powered bogie and cut a groove in each of them (on a lathe) and install a Märklin traction tire.

After that all what remains to do is adjusting the remaining axles to the Märklin compatible 13.8 mm flange spacing .(Did I say that before?Confused BigGrin

Done.

Works marvelously ( maybe ask Alsterstreek?Wink )

Steamers are way more complicated , because re-gauging may require to disassemble the complex driving mechanism .

In short: converting locos is possible and a nice challenge , but be prepared to spend a lot of time on it...
Aadapting cars and coaches, on the other hand, is easy

Enjoy

Jacques












Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
thanks 5 users liked this useful post by jvuye
Offline Mr. Ron  
#11 Posted : 10 June 2021 20:32:11(UTC)
Mr. Ron

United States   
Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Hi!

Having lived half my life on one side of the Atlantic and the other half here in Europe, may I offer my own version of 65 years of "problem solving"LOL LOL in this instance?

A) US rolling stock on Märklin tracks (excluding Locos) will work in most instances, but as Henrik said you really need to regauge the inner flange distance to 13.8 mm
In practically all cases you *don't* need to look for other axles. (Which can be even more frustrating than derailments!!)

The only problem you may *still* encounter is on switches /crossings where the NMRA style skinny flanges will tend to "dive" in the gaps and give a wobbly look at your train.
Contrary to common belief , the smaller track radii is *usually* not a problem (except very long vehicles ) , since US rolling stock doesn't have buffers!

All my US style rolling stock runs with Kadee couplers . (regardless of maker, wether European, US, Chinese, Japanese, Korean ,etc.)
If height is correctly adjusted they won't interfere with pukos. But in case they sag a bit, you can always bend that little pesky uncoupling c-shaped hook a little more (with the Kadee smart little tool)
And since Kadee has several length of plug-in Kadee coupler with NEM stems, the adaptation of Marklin rolling stock is instantaneous.

B) If you prefer to run Kadee couplers on your European style vehicles, I will certainly *not* discourage you to do so.
They are excellent in all regards , except for electrical connection between vehicles.
Again for all the recent NEM KK pocket equiped European equipment (which makes 99.5% of today's production over here) you can use the Kadee NEM compatibles.

Just do me a favor though : if you have **a lot ** of stock to convert that way, let me know: I want first to buy some Kadee shares, as I suspect their stock will increase in value significantly as a result of your massive purchase Smile Wink Wink

C) Converting US power to 3 rail operation is an all different ball game!
I could write a book (maybe even two! Crying Wink Smile!) on this subject.

Some brands will be more "cooperative" than others.
But always it will require some in depth "surgery" and "remodeling".

My favorite brand here is KATO diesels (and the associated brands like e.g. Steward which I suspect come from the same "hands) , but I have converted equipment from many other makers.
Although the flanges are the skinny version, they seem to work very well on C and Ktrack, (providing they are adjusted to the proper spacing)
I haven't had an Mtrack layout for decades, so hard for me to vouch for their performance in that case.

For example, in KATO's case, I simply disable one of the power bogies, remove the gears as to provide the space and clearance to mount the pick up shoe.
The pick up is mounted like on a Märklin loco, after fitting a custom-machined mounting piece under the bogie. (Usually a strip of platic equiped with a small M2 threaded brass insert)

Then I take the wheels off the remaining powered bogie and cut a groove in each of them (on a lathe) and install a Märklin traction tire.

After that all what remains to do is adjusting the remaining axles to the Märklin compatible 13.8 mm flange spacing .(Did I say that before?Confused BigGrin

Done.

Works marvelously ( maybe ask Alsterstreek?Wink )

Steamers are way more complicated , because re-gauging may require to disassemble the complex driving mechanism .

In short: converting locos is possible and a nice challenge , but be prepared to spend a lot of time on it...
Aadapting cars and coaches, on the other hand, is easy

Enjoy

Jacques


Thank you for your enlightening words. I do love the European model trains (except for the 4 wheel freight cars). I'm getting into Marklin because they are well engineered and detailed. Being on the left side of the Atlantic, it would seem modeling American prototypes would be the norm. I'm really interested in overhead wire, which is non-existent here, but very normal in Europe. That means I have to depend solely on European manufacturers who make catenary and it's components. It's not something I can walk into a store here and buy. Even online, I have to go European. Overhead wire used to be popular here, but it pretty much has been replaced by diesel. Cost/profit seems to be what governs our infrastructure. Outside 3rd rail was popular on suburban lines around New York City, especially on the Long Island railroad, but that may have been replaced by diesel. The only place electric is still used is in tunnel entrances into New York and I think Baltimore. Off course all underground rail lines are electric, but who wants to model a subway system. At the moment, I am pondering how to proceed with my layout. All the track is laid and now I am hooking up all 17 turnouts and cleaning and adjusting track for continuous running. My trains run pretty good, but hit spots where there is a loss of power.

BTW, I have back problems that limit my working on the railroad. I am seeing doctors to try to remedy my situation. As a result, most of my railroading at this point is of the "armchair" variety, like visiting online rail sites and designing parts of my railroad on my computer. At 86, I'm running out of time, but not of hope.

When I was part of the work force, I thought that when I retire, I would have all the time in the world to pursue my other interests, but now that I am retired, I find much that interferes with those interests, such as health issues (both me and my wife).

There are lots of well meaning and knowledgeable people on this Marklin website, so I thank you all for your friendliness and understanding when someone (like myself) visits with lots of questions. I hope to one day be able to reciprocate in helping others with their railroading issues. I am an engineer (not the railroad kind), so I am good at solving problems that are mechanical or structural in nature; electrical, not so much. I haven't got DCC figured out yet, but that is a future project.

The covid virus is a world wide problem that I hope will end soon so we can all get back to our lives. I have had my vaccination shots and I hope you and others in the model railroading community are safe.


thanks 4 users liked this useful post by Mr. Ron
Offline jvuye  
#12 Posted : 14 June 2021 22:53:02(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by jvuye
Offline Mr. Ron  
#13 Posted : 15 June 2021 03:00:50(UTC)
Mr. Ron

United States   
Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post

It looks like it is running on "C" track. My understanding is the track gauge is not correct on "M" track for 2-rail cars to operate on. I will have to obtain a 2-rail car and see if it will work on "M" track and if I can re-gage the wheels. "M" track rail profile is a rounded over cross section while "C" and "K" rail has a squared off profile (I think). I will have to get a section of both "C" and "K" track to see if the wheels are compatible.
I think the problem with Kadee couplers may be the tight radii of Marklin track.
Offline hxmiesa  
#14 Posted : 16 June 2021 06:46:02(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,296
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron Go to Quoted Post
I think the problem with Kadee couplers may be the tight radii of Marklin track.

Maybe not. According to Jacques Vuyes long answer above, the lack of buffers might HELP in this issue...
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline H0  
#15 Posted : 16 June 2021 08:04:40(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,294
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron Go to Quoted Post
"M" track rail profile is a rounded over cross section while "C" and "K" rail has a squared off profile (I think).
Early K track uses folded tin-plate rails like M track. M track rails can easily be bent out of shape at rail joints, leading to problems even with Märklin rolling stock.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Mr. Ron  
#16 Posted : 09 October 2021 01:37:28(UTC)
Mr. Ron

United States   
Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
I direct this question to anyone who has adapted American rolling stock to operate on Marklin track. Not sure if this question has been asked. Can U.S. made rolling stock be adapted to run on M-track? American vs German wheels; Kadee couplers replacing Marklin couplers. I believe there is a gauge difference between M-track and K or C-track. M-track having a rounded rail vs "squarish" rail; can it accept NMRA wheel profile standard RP25? or refit American rolling stock with Marklin trucks? If so, is this a practical change-over or more work than it's worth. This is an obvious question as Marklin has a very limited number of U.S. outline trains. Can DC locomotives run on a 3-rail system, using the center stud system as either _ or + polarity? It would seem like an impractical transformation, but the idea of a 3-rail system for DC would eliminate many polarity problems, such as reverse turn arounds and at turnouts and crossings.
Offline marklinist5999  
#17 Posted : 09 October 2021 02:07:05(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,036
Location: Michigan, Troy
It has been. Some will, some won't. Others will with different wheel sets. The main issue being the turnouts. As for powered units, unless you change the axles and wheels, the benefit of un isolated rails is lost. The reverse loop short is resolved, but better conductivity isn't.
Marklin actually has made an extensive line of American models. Alaska, U.P., NY central, PRR, etc. Some are available second hand.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#18 Posted : 09 October 2021 09:21:36(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,068
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron Go to Quoted Post
Not sure if this question has been asked.


Hi Mr Ron, Yes you asked it yourself so once again you've opened a 2nd new thread for a topic you have previously opened a thread for.

I have merged that topic with this one.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Bigdaddynz
Offline marklinist5999  
#19 Posted : 09 October 2021 13:27:58(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,036
Location: Michigan, Troy
Ah, yes I just love my senior moment's too.
Offline Mr. Ron  
#20 Posted : 09 October 2021 22:02:17(UTC)
Mr. Ron

United States   
Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron Go to Quoted Post
Not sure if this question has been asked.


Hi Mr Ron, Yes you asked it yourself so once again you've opened a 2nd new thread for a topic you have previously opened a thread for.

I have merged that topic with this one.


Thank you for your patience. At my age, I may forget where I put a post and may post twice (or more). I'll try in the future to keep on track.

thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Mr. Ron
Offline Mr. Ron  
#21 Posted : 09 October 2021 22:28:27(UTC)
Mr. Ron

United States   
Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
After reading your posts to my questions, I can see that converting U.S. rolling stock to Marklin track is doable; it will just take a bit of ingenuity to pull it off. Off course everything is possible in this world. It's just a matter of how much effort you want to expend to attain your goal. When you get on in years, ingenuity gets replaced by expediency.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Mr. Ron
Users browsing this topic
OceanSpiders 2.0
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2021, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.854 seconds.