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Offline bygger01  
#1 Posted : 18 August 2021 19:30:43(UTC)
bygger01

Denmark   
Joined: 23/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 181
Location: Herning in Denmark
I have experienced the following on my layout:

On a Helix, where I had done track work, two tracks had slipped apart and made a short circuit on one part of the layout, sharing a booster with another part.
CS3 was shut down
I repaired the damage
Turned on CS3, but still a short circuit
CS3 was shut down
And I repeated the track work (when I was unsure of the small tabs on the K tracks)
It all repeated itself with a short circuit
The underground station was inspected and vacuumed + again the track work, but again a short circuit show up
To be honest, I got a little desperate!
Could not think of anything else but to look at the other part of the track with the same booster
And here was the solution
The short circuit had started our Ardelt crane (art. 49570) and the arm/jib had started to spin around and had pushed & overturned some wagons
This is the first time I have seen an mfx decoder live its own life by short circuit (seen before with older decodes from ESU)
That's my story

And then to my question

Can I change the settings on the crane's decoder so that I can avoid removing the crane from the system when it is not under supervision, because a short circuit can’t be avoided on a model railway?
Best regards
Jørgen St. from Herning in DK
H0 / Märklin K track / CS3+ / full digital / Epoke III +/-
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by bygger01
Offline JohnjeanB  
#2 Posted : 19 August 2021 12:53:44(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: bygger01 Go to Quoted Post
This is the first time I have seen an mfx decoder live its own life by short circuit (seen before with older decodes from ESU)

Hi
This happens as the recent Märklin MFX decoders have an habit of decode wrongly signals during short circuits or during power-ups. So, it is not frequent (rare actually - less than 1%) but sometimes a loco may rush or a loud noise may come out of sound decoders.
In my case it may be amplified by the fact I run my trains with a CS3 and a 60101 PSU (100W) and I have 32 locos powered up at the same time
I also noticed it happens only on a very limited number of loco decoders (1 or 2).
Cheers
Jean
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline bygger01  
#3 Posted : 20 August 2021 20:21:21(UTC)
bygger01

Denmark   
Joined: 23/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 181
Location: Herning in Denmark
It seems that we are the only ones to acknowledge that problem, but thank you for taking the time to share your experiences.
Best regards
Jørgen St. from Herning in DK
H0 / Märklin K track / CS3+ / full digital / Epoke III +/-
Offline Purellum  
#4 Posted : 20 August 2021 21:26:49(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

I think the easiest solution, if it's only for your crane, is to park the crane on a un-powered piece of track, when not used.

A simple on-off-switch, or a K84 / M84 contact and a relay, then you know the crane will stay still when parked in the right spot.

This will of course not help if the short happens while you have the crane somewhere else on the layout.

Per.

Cool
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#5 Posted : 20 August 2021 21:40:20(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: bygger01 Go to Quoted Post


[u]And then to my question


Can I change the settings on the crane's decoder so that I can avoid removing the crane from the system when it is not under supervision, because a short circuit can’t be avoided on a model railway?

Hi
you can of course modify decoder's parameters but I don't see exactly what to do
You may also update the firmware of the crane, using a CS3 (connected to the Internet) on the programming track.
I am testing this on a BR 75 Insider model which has initialization problems (frequently, -5 to 10% - at power-up) it start sounding very loud unattractive noises.
I cannot give the results as I am far away from my layout
Cheers
Jean
Offline Dave Banks  
#6 Posted : 20 August 2021 21:51:38(UTC)
Dave Banks

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,026
Location: Gold Coast, Australia.

I have an OBB Roco HO AC Electric loco that takes off backwards for no reason at full tilt. I think you guys may have answered a puzzling question that has been niggling me for a long time. This sometimes occurs when activating a point on my layout. My track & accessories are separated via a Marklin booster that shares the same common earth. My controller is an Ecos 50200.


D.A.Banks
Offline dickinsonj  
#7 Posted : 22 August 2021 01:53:05(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
I have the same problem Jean. I have multiple mfx decoders that start a function when the track is first powered on, whether from a short or just from hitting the big red button on the CS.

My worst offenders are two locos that play their endless informational messages about the prototype. Nice feature but distracting when they are parked and you don't care to hear a speech in German. BigGrin But other locos sometimes activate functions to turn on lights or other sounds on power up, but not always. Very strange. If I cut power and restore it sometimes the function does not start again and sometimes it does.

I am currently wondering if my bundling of leads to different booster circuits might have caused cross talk, which effectively scrambled my signal. I am about to start completely over again on a new layout and I will not do that again at least. ThumpUp
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline bygger01  
#8 Posted : 22 August 2021 10:50:43(UTC)
bygger01

Denmark   
Joined: 23/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 181
Location: Herning in Denmark
From what I seen from you, I will do the following .....

1. The crane has a "parking place", and there a part at will be without power ( and maybe with a manual switch ) !

2. I will also try reset the decode and make a couple of short circuit ( I am pretty good at that ), and see what's happening !


And at last I had sent a mail to Märklin, and when/if an answer will come back, then I place copy here also !

Best regards
Jørgen St. from Herning in DK
H0 / Märklin K track / CS3+ / full digital / Epoke III +/-
Offline JohnjeanB  
#9 Posted : 22 August 2021 12:40:21(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
I have the same problem Jean. I have multiple mfx decoders that start a function when the track is first powered on, whether from a short or just from hitting the big red button on the CS.

My worst offenders are two locos that play their endless informational messages about the prototype. Nice feature but distracting when they are parked and you don't care to hear a speech in German. BigGrin But other locos sometimes activate functions to turn on lights or other sounds on power up, but not always. Very strange. If I cut power and restore it sometimes the function does not start again and sometimes it does.

I am currently wondering if my bundling of leads to different booster circuits might have caused cross talk, which effectively scrambled my signal. I am about to start completely over again on a new layout and I will not do that again at least. ThumpUp

Hi Jim
I suspect some decoders are not as "stable" as others because it is always the same locos (decoders) which show this erratic behaviour. If this becomes too aggravating (it is seldom at the moment) then I will change the decoder.
Also, make sure you have not left a momentary function ON (You wouldn't hear it unless at power up)
Cheers
Jean
Offline Purellum  
#10 Posted : 22 August 2021 22:06:57(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: bygger01 Go to Quoted Post
The crane has a "parking place", and there a part at will be without power ( and maybe with a manual switch ) !


Thinking of it, you don't need a switch, if you don't want to operate the crane when it is in the parking area BigGrin

Just park the crane at an unpowered end track; but of course with power up close to the crane, so a locomotive can come and get it Cool

Then you have no need for a switch BigGrin

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline dickinsonj  
#11 Posted : 23 August 2021 02:05:50(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
I suspect some decoders are not as "stable" as others because it is always the same locos (decoders) which show this erratic behaviour.

A year or two ago Jean I only had a few decoders which did this, but last year there were many more, so it seems like either Märklin decoder quality is totally gone or something related to the whole digital system is happening. I can go for weeks without any instances of this problem and then there are times where every power application starts some functions on some locos.

Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Also, make sure you have not left a momentary function ON (You wouldn't hear it unless at power up)

I was hoping that it might be that simple but I have verified that no functions are active on my CS3 when power is restored, even though something triggers the functions, and it does not appear to be my CS3.

Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline ocram63_uk  
#12 Posted : 23 August 2021 12:51:34(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: England, Suffolk
I don't know if it can be of any help, but when I start my Ecos no power goes to the tracks, I have to press the green button to have power to run my trains.
Obviously here the problem is another, so not strictly related, but it may help. Wait for the boot sequence to finish on your CS3 when you power it up the first time and then apply power to tracks, don't let it happen automatically. Computers need their time to settle down once powered up.

As for the Ecos after a short circuit, so far, I have had no random unwanted moving models.

Marco
Offline bygger01  
#13 Posted : 23 August 2021 18:42:19(UTC)
bygger01

Denmark   
Joined: 23/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 181
Location: Herning in Denmark
For the man from Mullerup:

You must be allowed to blush a little, when the “boys” come to visit our layout, so there will be a switch …..
Best regards
Jørgen St. from Herning in DK
H0 / Märklin K track / CS3+ / full digital / Epoke III +/-
Offline Purellum  
#14 Posted : 23 August 2021 19:06:46(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: bygger01 Go to Quoted Post
For the man from Mullerup:

You must be allowed to blush a little, when the “boys” come to visit our layout, so there will be a switch …..


Thank you, Carpet-man BigGrin

Blushing - LOL Laugh LOL

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
Offline bygger01  
#15 Posted : 23 August 2021 19:36:35(UTC)
bygger01

Denmark   
Joined: 23/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 181
Location: Herning in Denmark
Thank you for “the carpet man” and not this doctor from the past ….
Best regards
Jørgen St. from Herning in DK
H0 / Märklin K track / CS3+ / full digital / Epoke III +/-
Offline kiwiAlan  
#16 Posted : 23 August 2021 21:12:13(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: ocram63_uk Go to Quoted Post
I don't know if it can be of any help, but when I start my Ecos no power goes to the tracks, I have to press the green button to have power to run my trains.
Obviously here the problem is another, so not strictly related, but it may help. Wait for the boot sequence to finish on your CS3 when you power it up the first time and then apply power to tracks, don't let it happen automatically. Computers need their time to settle down once powered up.

As for the Ecos after a short circuit, so far, I have had no random unwanted moving models.

Marco


Well, you obviously haven't been following the forum postings on here about updates to the CS, these days it does exactly what you describe your eCos as doing, so he can't turn on track power until the cs has finished booting.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
Offline bygger01  
#17 Posted : 01 September 2021 18:54:24(UTC)
bygger01

Denmark   
Joined: 23/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 181
Location: Herning in Denmark
From today it is now possible to controle if there shall be power in the track, where the Ardelt is parked.

And to show power on, then a lamppost with two floodlights, that will be on + a shed with lights, where the operators must be, when the crane is to work.
Best regards
Jørgen St. from Herning in DK
H0 / Märklin K track / CS3+ / full digital / Epoke III +/-
Offline Purellum  
#18 Posted : 01 September 2021 21:16:52(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: bygger01 Go to Quoted Post
And to show power on, then a lamppost with two floodlights, that will be on a shed with lights, where the operators must be, when the crane is to work.


Smart BigGrin

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
Offline bygger01  
#19 Posted : 26 September 2021 20:34:43(UTC)
bygger01

Denmark   
Joined: 23/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 181
Location: Herning in Denmark
The problem has also been submitted via email to Märklin's technical department, but no answer has been received, so it must be understood in the sense, that it is something you have to live with !!!

On the other hand, the crane is insulated with a switch (at the request of a man from Mullerup = Purellum), so it is only when the power is turned on that the problem can occur (the "satanic" grandchildren)!

If this is a general problem, then it is a pity, that Märklin did not just come up with an answer in that direction .....

So that must be the end of that story!
Best regards
Jørgen St. from Herning in DK
H0 / Märklin K track / CS3+ / full digital / Epoke III +/-
Offline DaleSchultz  
#20 Posted : 26 September 2021 20:48:48(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
I quick and dirty trick I use to isolate a locomotive (Eg one that is not yet digitized but placed in the Bw) is to cut a small strip of paper the length of the pickup shoe and place that under the pickup shoe.

You could have used the same trick for your crane but you now have a more sophisticated solution.

I doubt that Märklin will make any change to the decoders, as I suspect short circuits are so 'noisy' that they may appear to be AC power to decoders that can switch between analog and digital mode. Disabling AC mode wherever possible may help the problem in general.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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