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Offline Karl Audenaerde  
#1 Posted : 05 February 2018 20:15:55(UTC)
Karl Audenaerde

United States   
Joined: 17/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: MASSACHUSETTS, FALMOUTH
This is the situation: track splits in two. After the turnout come two signals (764xx). Ahead of the turnout is a distant signal. I want the distant signal to respond to one of the main signals, depending on the position of the turnout, and using a 7244 universal relay, switched parallel with the turnout.. Doesn't work: the digital code doesn't seem to make it past the relay that (probably) acts as a low-pass filter, thus deforming the pulse to the point of being unrecognizable. If I take the relay out and just twist wires together, the whole setup works just fine.
What I'm looking for is a relay that handles high-frequency signals. Or a completely different solution....
Offline DaleSchultz  
#2 Posted : 06 February 2018 00:17:11(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
if it works fine with the wires connected without relay, is that not your solution? I am missing something...
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline Karl Audenaerde  
#3 Posted : 06 February 2018 00:56:25(UTC)
Karl Audenaerde

United States   
Joined: 17/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: MASSACHUSETTS, FALMOUTH
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
if it works fine with the wires connected without relay, is that not your solution? I am missing something...


Blame me, but I want to be able to SWITCH! The idea is to have the same command change the position of the turnout AND the switch that connects the distant signal to the desired main signal. All very mysterious...
Offline DaleSchultz  
#4 Posted : 06 February 2018 02:16:50(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
I see. Is the distant signal digital? I am wondering if it is 'rebooting' when its inputs are switched by the relay.

Usually a relay simply closes a circuit, and I can't imagine how any filtering could be taking place.
Secondly the current being switched should be plain DC signal LED current and polarity right, why would it have digital signal in the first place...

Essentially you want the distant signal to be a slave to whatever main signal is 'connected' by the rail path between it and the distant signal.
If the distant signal has 2 aspects then the relay will have to throw two poles.
If the distant signal has 3 aspects then the relay will have to throw three poles.
Right?


Can you draw a diagram how how you have connected the relay?
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline Karl Audenaerde  
#5 Posted : 07 February 2018 00:16:30(UTC)
Karl Audenaerde

United States   
Joined: 17/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: MASSACHUSETTS, FALMOUTH
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
I see. Is the distant signal digital? I am wondering if it is 'rebooting' when its inputs are switched by the relay.

Usually a relay simply closes a circuit, and I can't imagine how any filtering could be taking place.
Secondly the current being switched should be plain DC signal LED current and polarity right, why would it have digital signal in the first place...

Essentially you want the distant signal to be a slave to whatever main signal is 'connected' by the rail path between it and the distant signal.
If the distant signal has 2 aspects then the relay will have to throw two poles.
If the distant signal has 3 aspects then the relay will have to throw three poles.
Right?


Can you draw a diagram how how you have connected the relay?


I tried to add a schematic, but so far no good. Anyway, it's simple enough: The two main signals are connected to the clamps 1 and 3 of the 7244, and the distant signal to 2. Repeat, once for the white wires, once for the purple ones. I'm just using a regular switch to drive the universal relay, to keep things simple for testing purposes. The relays inside the 7244 are Panasonic TQ2-L2-12V, seemingly ideal for this application.
Low-pass:at a sufficiently high frequency everything becomes a low-pass filter, and high frequencies are needed to maintain a nice pulse shape. But that's not the problem anyway, because a single signal makes it through the relay without a problem.
All signals are digital. Maybe your "rebooting" idea is worth pursuing, but I have no idea what, in this case, rebooting exactly would mean. After all, the distant signal is hardwired to the main signal, and just act as a slave to the main signal(s).
I even tried to use two separate 7244s, avoiding possible interference. Made no difference..
I'm stumped. Thanks for helping me think!
Offline DaleSchultz  
#6 Posted : 07 February 2018 03:09:11(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
I put together a diagram of how I imagine this could be connected.

This is untested (I control all my signals without relays)

So, we have a digital signal red + brown coming to both a signal decoder and a turnout decoder. (The signal decoders could be integrated or separate.)

The signal decoders set the aspects of the two signals.

The turnout decoder sets the turnout and also flips the relay one way or the other.

If the turnout is set one way, the double throw relay connects the distant signal to one signal,
and if thrown the other way it connects the distant signal to the other signal.

relay.gif

I think the critical thing is that the relay is switching the DC signal light current, not a digital signal.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline Johnvr  
#7 Posted : 07 February 2018 06:53:35(UTC)
Johnvr

South Africa   
Joined: 03/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,269
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Dale,

I like this solution !

Regards BigGrin
John
Offline Karl Audenaerde  
#8 Posted : 07 February 2018 14:52:29(UTC)
Karl Audenaerde

United States   
Joined: 17/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: MASSACHUSETTS, FALMOUTH
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
I put together a diagram of how I imagine this could be connected.

This is untested (I control all my signals without relays)

So, we have a digital signal red + brown coming to both a signal decoder and a turnout decoder. (The signal decoders could be integrated or separate.)

The signal decoders set the aspects of the two signals.

The turnout decoder sets the turnout and also flips the relay one way or the other.

If the turnout is set one way, the double throw relay connects the distant signal to one signal,
and if thrown the other way it connects the distant signal to the other signal.

relay.gif

I think the critical thing is that the relay is switching the DC signal light current, not a digital signal.





Dale, you're way ahead of me. All I have tried to do so far is just a simple test set-up consisting of the two main signals and the distant signal. And, of course, the 7244.
If you tell me how you managed to include the drawing in your message, I'll get you a detailed schematic. I tried using the paperclip icon, and nothing happens/
Offline DaleSchultz  
#9 Posted : 07 February 2018 16:30:38(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
see if this thread helps:
https://www.marklin-user...-Attach--image-to-a-post

check that you are not blocking pop ups for the site.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline DaleSchultz  
#10 Posted : 07 February 2018 16:40:09(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
another thought,

since you say all the signals are digital, just control them digitally, and stop trying to integrate analog (relay) control into a digital system. It only leads to horrible complexity and tears IMHO.

Say your signals are driven as follows:

signal A address 22 red -> Hp0 (stop)
signal A address 22 green -> Hp1 (go)

signal B address 33 red -> Hp0 (stop)
signal B address 33 green -> Hp1 (go)

distant signal address 44 red -> Vr0 (expect stop)
distant signal address 44 green -> Vr1 (expect go)

and the turnout between the distant signal and the main signals is:

address 55 red -> set track towards signal A
address 55 green -> set track towards signal B

Then do is this:

if address 55 is set to green and address 22 = red then set address 44 to red
if address 55 is set to green and address 22 = green then set address 44 to green
if address 55 is set to red and address 33 = red then set address 44 to red
if address 55 is set to red and address 33 = green then set address 44 to green





Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline Karl Audenaerde  
#11 Posted : 08 February 2018 01:25:59(UTC)
Karl Audenaerde

United States   
Joined: 17/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: MASSACHUSETTS, FALMOUTH
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
I put together a diagram of how I imagine this could be connected.

This is untested (I control all my signals without relays)

So, we have a digital signal red + brown coming to both a signal decoder and a turnout decoder. (The signal decoders could be integrated or separate.)

The signal decoders set the aspects of the two signals.

The turnout decoder sets the turnout and also flips the relay one way or the other.

If the turnout is set one way, the double throw relay connects the distant signal to one signal,
and if thrown the other way it connects the distant signal to the other signal.

relay.gif

I think the critical thing is that the relay is switching the DC signal light current, not a digital signal.





Still no luck with the picture. I'm using the "attach" icon, and nothing happens. Not even an error message...
My layout is controlled by a CS2, and the synchronization between the turnout and the relay should be taken care of later using a script. Right now all I have is (a) two main signals (b) one distant signal (c) one 7244, in turn controlled by push buttons. The 7244 is connected to the decoders of the main signals. hardwired with the purple/white wires to the inputs 1 and 3 of the 7244. The purple/white combination then goes from the 7244 to the distant signal. All signals are new 764xx's. I can't think of a reason why this wouldn't work... All signals are 3-spect, and without the switch communication is just perfect. ??????
Offline DaleSchultz  
#12 Posted : 08 February 2018 02:35:58(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
sounds like you are are trying to switch digital current.

I don't have a 7244 and have no idea what color wires mean what but if you are taking signal aspect current as an input to a digital signal - that can never work.

I doubt you can switch a digital signal using analog current (from a relay) which is switching the analog DC current that drives the main signal signal. You want a pure slave relationship between distant and main signals. All the relay has to do it switch which main signal's current is to be used for the distant.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline Karl Audenaerde  
#13 Posted : 08 February 2018 15:05:34(UTC)
Karl Audenaerde

United States   
Joined: 17/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: MASSACHUSETTS, FALMOUTH
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
sounds like you are are trying to switch digital current.

I don't have a 7244 and have no idea what color wires mean what but if you are taking signal aspect current as an input to a digital signal - that can never work.

I doubt you can switch a digital signal using analog current (from a relay) which is switching the analog DC current that drives the main signal signal. You want a pure slave relationship between distant and main signals. All the relay has to do it switch which main signal's current is to be used for the distant.



I'm wondering: are we talking about the same signals? The 764xx series has a decoder that usually is placed under C-track and connected to the track with the familiar red/brown wires that carry both power and the digital signal. The decoder has two sockets, each accepting a two-wire cable (purple/white). One of those goes to the main signal, the other to the associated distant signal.
I have two main signals, and thus two purple/white cables. They go to the 7244 which is just a plastic box containing two double-pole double-throw latching relays (Panasonic TQ2-L2-12V). The common contacts are connected to the distant signal. I only use one ioof the Panasonic relays, one pole for the white wires, one for the purple ones. I switch the whole thing manually, so there is no interaction with any other part of the layout, digital or analog.
These signals are actually pretty nifty: they use two wires to control up to four aspects!
This is all very embarassing: I have worked as an electrical engineer for over 40 years and I'm stumped by a $3 relay...

Offline DaleSchultz  
#14 Posted : 09 February 2018 01:13:36(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
Originally Posted by: Karl Audenaerde Go to Quoted Post

I have two main signals, and thus two purple/white cables. They go to the 7244 which is just a plastic box containing two double-pole double-throw latching relays (Panasonic TQ2-L2-12V). The common contacts are connected to the distant signal. I only use one ioof the Panasonic relays, one pole for the white wires, one for the purple ones. I switch the whole thing manually, so there is no interaction with any other part of the layout, digital or analog.

sounds like your connections match what I drew.....

Originally Posted by: Karl Audenaerde Go to Quoted Post

These signals are actually pretty nifty: they use two wires to control up to four aspects!


ok that is a shock! Is it two wires plus a ground ? (I don't have those signals myself). A self standing distant signal has three possible aspects.

If its two wires plus ground - I would expect 2 aspects with plain DC current.

If there are 4 aspects with 2 wires then they are encoding the 4 aspects somehow - such as different polarities/voltages/frequencies that the distant signal then decodes. Can you put a good circuit tester on the two wires to see what it puts out with different aspects?

Even still, if both are being switched by the relay, I would expect the distant signal to work the same (as do you). Have you tested the relays with a circuit tester?






Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline Karl Audenaerde  
#15 Posted : 09 February 2018 03:34:00(UTC)
Karl Audenaerde

United States   
Joined: 17/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: MASSACHUSETTS, FALMOUTH
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Karl Audenaerde Go to Quoted Post

I have two main signals, and thus two purple/white cables. They go to the 7244 which is just a plastic box containing two double-pole double-throw latching relays (Panasonic TQ2-L2-12V). The common contacts are connected to the distant signal. I only use one ioof the Panasonic relays, one pole for the white wires, one for the purple ones. I switch the whole thing manually, so there is no interaction with any other part of the layout, digital or analog.

sounds like your connections match what I drew.....

Originally Posted by: Karl Audenaerde Go to Quoted Post

These signals are actually pretty nifty: they use two wires to control up to four aspects!


ok that is a shock! Is it two wires plus a ground ? (I don't have those signals myself). A self standing distant signal has three possible aspects.

If its two wires plus ground - I would expect 2 aspects with plain DC current.

If there are 4 aspects with 2 wires then they are encoding the 4 aspects somehow - such as different polarities/voltages/frequencies that the distant signal then decodes. Can you put a good circuit tester on the two wires to see what it puts out with different aspects?


Two wires, no ground. And that for 2, 3 or 4 aspects. Obviously, some serious decoding is going on in the signals!

Even still, if both are being switched by the relay, I would expect the distant signal to work the same (as do you). Have you tested the relays with a circuit tester?

Tested everything aboiut six times. Am about to give up...Cursing










Offline DaleSchultz  
#16 Posted : 09 February 2018 18:43:39(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
I think your initial suspicion must be correct. The relay is not passing something through. Does it make the switching by physically joining a conductive path or does it switch the poles electronically?
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline Karl Audenaerde  
#17 Posted : 09 February 2018 23:07:38(UTC)
Karl Audenaerde

United States   
Joined: 17/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: MASSACHUSETTS, FALMOUTH
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
I think your initial suspicion must be correct. The relay is not passing something through. Does it make the switching by physically joining a conductive path or does it switch the poles electronically?


I got off that idea: the distant signal follows whatever signal I start with perfectly. When the relay switches, the relay doesn't follow. Whatever...
The relay is an old-fashioned one, DPDT, BBM. And you can hear it switch.
I asked the Marklin digital "dudes," so far no response.

Offline Jonathan  
#18 Posted : 03 August 2021 07:52:14(UTC)
Jonathan

United States   
Joined: 24/11/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2
Location: California, San Mateo
I'm not sure it's useful to reply some three and a half years later, but...

The 2-wire connection to the distant signal (Vorsignal) suggests the aspect-control is DC, changing polarity to change between Vr0 and Vr1.
Two pairs of antiparallel green/yellow, in series, would suffice. Can you check voltage on the white/purple wires, for each distant-signal aspect?

What happens if you set the two Home signals to different aspects; plug the distant signal into one of the signals; then unplug it and plug it into the original signal?
If that doesn't work, then the relay won't work either.
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