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Offline Rwill  
#1 Posted : 12 June 2021 14:04:05(UTC)
Rwill

United Kingdom   
Joined: 04/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 759
Location: England, London
My layout is L shaped 3m x3m C track controlled by CS3. There are twenty powered turnouts with either K83 or individual turnout decoder. The layout is situated in “the dining room” of our Victorian London house so is reasonably temperate and dry.

So turnouts controlled through the track diagram of the CS3. Quite often the turnout will not react to a control. Maybe flicking the control back and forth it may start to work Trouble is if you hadn’t noticed the not working the first you see is a train going into a siding where another train was resting.. If easily reachable manually flicking the lever back and forth it may work and shudder a small squirt of WD40 on the lever and it may work. Once set going it will usually work for the current session and then maybe next time be back to stickiness.

So over time and different layout we have used 1) Separate circuit transformer and control boxes. 2) 6021 plus keyboard both integrated and separate for lok control 3) MS2 4) CS2 from an LGB start set so with a very chunky power supply and now 5) CS3 with standard power supply. My “sticky” problem I perceive to have got worse with the CS3. I have never altered the internal of the turnout motors and I used to believe that factory assembled switch, motor decoder like in the 24802 set were “indestructible and reliable” but they have started to play up a bit.

I maybe don’t have enough connection to the track of power from the CS3 but sometimes the naughty turnout will be right next to a track power connection. Signals (various sorts) uncouplers and S88 all function fine.

Any suggestions - Thanks
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Offline David Dewar  
#2 Posted : 12 June 2021 14:45:15(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,000
Location: Scotland
If you can get a new turnout motor I would try that on one of the turnouts to see if there is a difference. Also if you can remove the turnout clean the motor and the underside of the turnout. If you have one turnout working fine then swap the motor and decoder to the one that does not work and see if there is a difference.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline marklinist5999  
#3 Posted : 12 June 2021 15:54:23(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 950
Location: Michigan, Troy
One of my older C short "manual" straight ones were sticking in one position. I used a drop of clear synthetic 13.5 weight rotary valve oil. It's much better. This oil is formulated for saxaphone and trumpet valves, etc.
Also you can try leaving the turnout in the opposite setting it was last stored in. That was my problem. The sticly setting was where it was in storage.
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#4 Posted : 12 June 2021 16:39:23(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,858
I sometimes run a routine that switches each turnout back and forth a few times. You may be able to set a 'route' that does that. Or two, one set them all to green the other all to red.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#5 Posted : 12 June 2021 17:37:08(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,275
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Rwill Go to Quoted Post
My layout is L shaped 3m x3m C track controlled by CS3. There are twenty powered turnouts with either K83 or individual turnout decoder. The layout is situated in “the dining room” of our Victorian London house so is reasonably temperate and dry.

So turnouts controlled through the track diagram of the CS3. Quite often the turnout will not react to a control. Maybe flicking the control back and forth it may start to work Trouble is if you hadn’t noticed the not working the first you see is a train going into a siding where another train was resting.. If easily reachable manually flicking the lever back and forth it may work and shudder a small squirt of WD40 on the lever and it may work. Once set going it will usually work for the current session and then maybe next time be back to stickiness.

So over time and different layout we have used 1) Separate circuit transformer and control boxes. 2) 6021 plus keyboard both integrated and separate for lok control 3) MS2 4) CS2 from an LGB start set so with a very chunky power supply and now 5) CS3 with standard power supply. My “sticky” problem I perceive to have got worse with the CS3. I have never altered the internal of the turnout motors and I used to believe that factory assembled switch, motor decoder like in the 24802 set were “indestructible and reliable” but they have started to play up a bit.

I maybe don’t have enough connection to the track of power from the CS3 but sometimes the naughty turnout will be right next to a track power connection. Signals (various sorts) uncouplers and S88 all function fine.

Any suggestions - Thanks


This sounds typical of C track point motors where the limit switches go faulty. Take the point motor out and short all the pins on each switch together.

Offline hxmiesa  
#6 Posted : 12 June 2021 19:50:27(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,286
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
This sounds typical of C track point motors where the limit switches go faulty. Take the point motor out and short all the pins on each switch together.

I absolutly agree!
Get the motor out, and bridge over the cut-off end-switches with a solder-blobs.
If you are more skilled, you can des-older the micro-switch(es) altogheter, so that the solenoids doesnt have to waste force on the mechanical switching of the mico(s)!

K-track motors has the same problem, but once "fixed", will last forever. (or at least 15 years on my layout sofar...)


Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline Rwill  
#7 Posted : 12 June 2021 20:15:32(UTC)
Rwill

United Kingdom   
Joined: 04/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 759
Location: England, London
Thank you for all your responses. It is the last post from Kiwi Alan that I was least looking forward to. Let’s face it for fifteen years or more for K track and C track the suggestion has been made on the various forum to dismantle and solder the point motors. I have a box of “broken” turnout motors where my attempts to rectify this matter have failed. Now I know that people especially starters still control their turnouts with switch boxes etc but surely the majority now use decoders etc. Therefore, I would have hoped by now that M could make ands sell product fit for purpose. I do not want to be stripping down and soldering expensive new kit to simply make it work and fit for purpose. I mentioned the set 24802 which comprises two turnouts with switch motor and decoder which arrives beautifully assembled. I was hoping that as this was never to be used for non-digital, they might in the factory have cross soldered the pins etc. My theory was helped by the fact that these never went wrong – but recently they have started to misbehave. Imagine if my daughter bought an iPad and after three weeks declared she was going to unscrew the back and solder in a resistor because that’s what people were suggesting on What’s App although Apple have never acknowledged a problem or solution> If I may I shall try some of the simpler suggestion.

Offline David Dewar  
#8 Posted : 12 June 2021 21:20:37(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,000
Location: Scotland
I would still say to find out what the problem is by replacing the turnout motor and see if it works and if not try a new decoder and see if that works.
How many of the 20 turnouts have the problem. Also how long have you had the motors for in the turnouts that dont work. You can test using the programme track which might be easier.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline Danlake  
#9 Posted : 12 June 2021 21:51:59(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,551
Originally Posted by: Rwill Go to Quoted Post
Thank you for all your responses. It is the last post from Kiwi Alan that I was least looking forward to. Let’s face it for fifteen years or more for K track and C track the suggestion has been made on the various forum to dismantle and solder the point motors. I have a box of “broken” turnout motors where my attempts to rectify this matter have failed. Now I know that people especially starters still control their turnouts with switch boxes etc but surely the majority now use decoders etc. Therefore, I would have hoped by now that M could make ands sell product fit for purpose. I do not want to be stripping down and soldering expensive new kit to simply make it work and fit for purpose. I mentioned the set 24802 which comprises two turnouts with switch motor and decoder which arrives beautifully assembled. I was hoping that as this was never to be used for non-digital, they might in the factory have cross soldered the pins etc. My theory was helped by the fact that these never went wrong – but recently they have started to misbehave. Imagine if my daughter bought an iPad and after three weeks declared she was going to unscrew the back and solder in a resistor because that’s what people were suggesting on What’s App although Apple have never acknowledged a problem or solution> If I may I shall try some of the simpler suggestion.



I have not seen or heard that the newer generations turnout motors are fundamentally different and improved in design. So regardless of what version you have I would shorten the micro switches.

The problem is that Marklin is selling switches that works both for analog and digital. If they sold the motors without microswitch and a buyer uses them for analog it could very easily burnout the the motor. Ideally Marklin should just bite the bullet and have 2 versions - one for digital only and one for analog. Or alternatively used different type of micro switches that don’t have contacts that oxide as easily.

Here is some detailed info on doing the modifications. It’s actually very easy to do:

https://regulusastro.com...the-digital-world-a-fix/

Best Regards
Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
Offline Ross  
#10 Posted : 13 June 2021 00:31:56(UTC)
Ross

Australia   
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 782
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hi all,

Please see article below to modify the 74491 point motor

74491 C-track point motor mod
Ross
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Offline phils2um  
#11 Posted : 13 June 2021 08:07:32(UTC)
phils2um

United States   
Joined: 12/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 115
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
How much current draw do you have on the CS3 when you have the turnout problem? I know from experience that the digital signal can get corrupted seemingly well before the current limit of CS3's internal booster is reached. When that happens turnouts stop responding or respond intermittently. Locos too, will just continue on uncontrollably with their last "good" speed setting. You may be trying to do too much and need to divide your layout into two (or more) zones and add additional boosters. Curtis Jeung has mentioned this behavior on a few occasions on Märklin Digital webinars. Just a thought for you to consider.
Phil S.
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#12 Posted : 13 June 2021 16:53:18(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,731
Location: Paris, France
Hi Rwill
It may not be much of a help but here is my recipe to have very few issues with C Track motors:
- create a "Gymnastic program" to be activated at each session start whereby each switch is activated back and forth a few times (the more you use these motors to best they work)
- short circuit the internal cut-off switches and make a 100ms duration for activation on your CS2 or CS3
- use a software like Rocrail: even without switch position monitoring (which it can) the number is vastly reduced by emergency stop when a "Ghost Train" is detected.

Problems encountered on C Switches (since 1996 with approximate number of occurrences on a quantity of 60 used approx 600 hours per year)
- point blades stuck because of dirt locking the moving rail rivets (5 times)
- solenoid bouncing back instead of going till the mechanical end (5 times)
- cut-off switches inside the motor not making contact any more (40 times or more)
- weak solenoid motors (early production with only one cut-off switch) (all early production removed)
- wire interference on DKW (Double Slip Sw) (5 times)

Note: very important to make sure that the decoder is powered with very low impedance in digital current. The key reason why Märklin introduced 60822 to bring capacitor storage to 60832 decoders
Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
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