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Offline baggio  
#1 Posted : 03 April 2021 22:02:28(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,713
Location: Toronto
I am restarting to use my transformer to run analogue locos. In fact, I just swapped a Santa Fe analogue loco with two nice wagons for my helix. The loco runs very nicely (albeit, not too fast).

In the course of doing this, I unplugged the power supply to the digital transformer (the square box) but left the connections to the MS2 (both of them) untouched. I attached the analogue transformer elsewhere on the track.

Surprising to me, when I started giving power to the analogue transformer, the lights of both MS2 controllers went on. So, I unplugged the MS2 completely from the digital transformer.

The analogue trains ran just fine. (Except my beloved FS 424; but that is another story.)

Now my crazy question:

What would happen if I plug back in the MS2's into the digital transformer square box without using the digital power pack and left the analogue transformer on?

Would I be able to run, perhaps separately, both my digital locos (with sound, etc.) and my analogue locos?

Basically, I would be using my analogue transformer as the power pack for the MS2's.

Do I risk damaging the MS2's or the digital locos by operating them in digital via an analogue transformer?

Thanks to anyone willing to give me feedback.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS EVERYONE! BigGrin

Silvano

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Offline marklinist5999  
#2 Posted : 03 April 2021 22:58:56(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 493
Location: Michigan, Troy
Yes, Especially mfx decoders. The MS2, and CS3s if not also the CS2 and MS1 are only meant to be powered by switched mode power packs. Damage may not happen early on, or at all, but you just can't count on that. Can Motors in later locomotives can also heat up too hot. It was the same when some conventional transformers had pulse code modulation acceleration control.
Some modelers however choose to use another brand of switched mode power packs, or make them.
The Marklin power pack for A cs3 with LGB has higher amperage output for the G scale motors. I have heard of some using it for ho scale, but it isn't recommended by Marklin.
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Offline baggio  
#3 Posted : 03 April 2021 23:03:48(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,713
Location: Toronto
Keep in mind, though, that digital locos do work on analogue layouts with analogue transformers.

I see what you are saying, however.

Thanks. BigGrin
Offline Martti Mäntylä  
#4 Posted : 03 April 2021 23:30:33(UTC)
Martti Mäntylä

Finland   
Joined: 15/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 237
Location: Uusimaa, Helsinki
Electricity flows from the higher potential to the lower potential, so if you leave a track box connected to a track powered by an analog transformer, it will be "powered" by its track connectors (unless the designers have safeguarded against this; from what you told us, it appears that they didn't).

Surely the track box was not designed to be operated in this way, and will hardly be able to do anything useful. Whether this is detrimental to the health of the device I cannot say. I would not take the risk.
- Martti M.
Era III analog & digital (Rocrail, CAN Digital Bahn, Gleisbox/MS2, K83/K84), C & M tracks, some Spur 1
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Offline baggio  
#5 Posted : 03 April 2021 23:36:16(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,713
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: Martti Mäntylä Go to Quoted Post
Surely the track box was not designed to be operated in this way, and will hardly be able to do anything useful.


You may be right, but we will never know unless I try. I am tempted, but also somewhat frightened...Blushing
Offline mvd71  
#6 Posted : 03 April 2021 23:38:26(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,352
Location: Auckland,
Without wanting to be rude, that would be a pretty dumb thing to do.

When running analogue you should have the digital controllers disconnected.

Good way to do this if you want to swap from one to the other is to wire the output of the track connector box and the the output of the analogue transformer through a switch that allows you to have either analogue or digital at the flick of a switch, but never both connected to the track at the same time.
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Offline baggio  
#7 Posted : 04 April 2021 00:48:13(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,713
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: mvd71 Go to Quoted Post
When running analogue you should have the digital controllers disconnected.


Do remember, though, that the power pack IS disconnected. Just thew MS2's would be attached.

Does that change your answer any? Wink

Offline mike c  
#8 Posted : 04 April 2021 01:04:29(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,125
Location: Montreal, QC
DO NOT USE DIGITAL AND ANALOG EQUIPMENT (CONTROLLERS) TOGETHER UNLESS THE ANALOG TRANSFORMER IS USED TO POWER THE DIGITAL CONTROLLER IN A MANNER SPECIFIED BY THE MANUFACTURER.

It was originally possible to power the Mobile Station by AC power, but the MS2 and controllers since then are designed to be used with an external DC power supply which is then supplied to the controller via the circuit board of the track box. Any power that is fed to the track box from a separate transformer connected to the track will result in voltage being delivered to the output terminals of that digital controller.
Last thing I had heard was that it was not possible to use the MS2 with the track box of the earlier version.

It might not burn out instantly, but I am pretty sure that within a short period of time, you would see the MS2 become terminally inflicted.

Please contact Rick at Marklin or service(at)maerklin.de for more information. if they have changed their recommendations, they will let you know.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline baggio  
#9 Posted : 04 April 2021 01:08:48(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,713
Location: Toronto
Thank you, Mike. BigGrin
Offline mvd71  
#10 Posted : 04 April 2021 02:04:37(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,352
Location: Auckland,
When you do what you have described you are feeding power in the digital system the wrong way, and this is a recipe for doing damage.
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Offline baggio  
#11 Posted : 04 April 2021 06:04:42(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,713
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: mvd71 Go to Quoted Post
feeding power in the digital system the wrong way,


That's a good way to put it.ThumpUp

Maybe that's why the transformer for the MS1 cannot be used with the MS2.

This begs the question as to whether an MS1 could be used in conjunction with an analogue transformer.

Offline H0  
#12 Posted : 06 April 2021 11:09:28(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,121
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
The MS2, and CS3s if not also the CS2 and MS1 are only meant to be powered by switched mode power packs.
That's not quite true. The CS3 can only be used with DC, but nowhere they state state a switching-mode power supply is required.
CS2 and CS1 can work with AC.
The MS2 track box can work with AC. The MS1 track box is built for use with AC.

Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Maybe that's why the transformer for the MS1 cannot be used with the MS2.
Who says that?
MS2 can be used with the transformer of the MS1 - both the 32 VA and the 52 VA transformers should work fine. They may become too hot and switch off under full power, but there should be no problems if you do not take the MS2 perpetually to the limit and give them time to cool down.
I don't know which problems can occur when using the 18 VA power supply, but the MS2 will work fine as long as the power limit of the supply is not exceeded.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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