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Offline e.herborg  
#1 Posted : 15 February 2021 23:35:12(UTC)
e.herborg

Italy   
Joined: 08/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Piemonte, Torino
Good evening.
I've built an extra simple Marklin C layout, an oval controlled by a Central Station 2. No signals, no turnouts.
I've installed 6 sensor rails as occupancy sensors and connected them to an s88 module.
Every couple of them is assigned to a block, so I have 3 blocks.
I generated 3 routes with router:
bk1- to bk2+
bk2- to bk3+
bk3- to bk1+
Then I registered 2 locomotives and everything is fine.

My question is: how can I let the locomotives run automatically in the same direction, continuously all day long and without crash one into the other?

Three blocks are enough, or I must create a fourth block?

Thank you for the answer

Schermata 2021-02-15 alle 23.13.01.png
Offline pederbc  
#2 Posted : 15 February 2021 23:53:19(UTC)
pederbc

Sweden   
Joined: 11/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 110
Location: Eslöv, Sweden
You will need at least 4 blocks as the block ahead needs to be reserved before it can be entered. And itt must be empty to be reserved. If you run with only 3 blocks the trains will need to stop at each block and wait for the next to be cleared. No fun at all😳

Peder
Offline e.herborg  
#3 Posted : 16 February 2021 00:06:10(UTC)
e.herborg

Italy   
Joined: 08/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Piemonte, Torino
Originally Posted by: pederbc Go to Quoted Post
You will need at least 4 blocks as the block ahead needs to be reserved before it can be entered. And itt must be empty to be reserved. If you run with only 3 blocks the trains will need to stop at each block and wait for the next to be cleared. No fun at all😳

Peder


So, it's that... On a lot of manuals I read that if you want to run several trains on a circuit you must have an extra block than the trains (i.e. 2 trains->3 blocks) but as you just said, the more blocks the better... Thank you! And what I must do to let them run automatically and without interruptions all day?
Offline pederbc  
#4 Posted : 16 February 2021 00:18:35(UTC)
pederbc

Sweden   
Joined: 11/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 110
Location: Eslöv, Sweden
If, you use 4 blocks AND the trains are running the same speed AND the blocks are long enough, they should be able to run all day without stopping. What’s really happening is: when you run automatically the system will check if the block ahead is empty, and if, reserv it and start the engine. The engine will move into the next block and once it’s cleared that the train is fully inside this block, it will clear the block it has left. Now the second train can reserv this block. And so on...

Hope it makes sense, Peder
Offline e.herborg  
#5 Posted : 16 February 2021 00:20:54(UTC)
e.herborg

Italy   
Joined: 08/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Piemonte, Torino
Originally Posted by: pederbc Go to Quoted Post
If, you use 4 blocks AND the trains are running the same speed AND the blocks are long enough, they should be able to run all day without stopping. What’s really happening is: when you run automatically the system will check if the block ahead is empty, and if, reserv it and start the engine. The engine will move into the next block and once it’s cleared that the train is fully inside this block, it will clear the block it has left. Now the second train can reserv this block. And so on...

Hope it makes sense, Peder


Thank you for the fast and useful answer. I'll try your solution and then I'll let you know. Thank you and goodnight
Offline Martti Mäntylä  
#6 Posted : 16 February 2021 01:39:26(UTC)
Martti Mäntylä

Finland   
Joined: 15/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 235
Location: Uusimaa, Helsinki
Nominally three blocks is enough, but then only one of the two trains can be moving at any time. Not so nice.

With additional blocks you will see more often that the both trains move at the same time.

Be sure to select the option "Check for free destination until reaching IN" in the Details frame of the Locomotives table. It gives the train at front more time to clear the destination block for the train following behind.
- Martti M.
Era III analog & digital (Rocrail, CAN Digital Bahn, Gleisbox/MS2, K83/K84), C & M tracks, some Spur 1
Offline JohnjeanB  
#7 Posted : 16 February 2021 01:51:18(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,432
Location: Paris, France
Hi e.herborg (sorry no first name)
I am not a specialist but I use Rocrail since 6 years.
I think in a normal use you need 3 blocs to run 2 trains (at least with my settings). Do not check "reserve second next block" in Rocrail Properties/Automatic.

The theory is one block must be free to a train to move into it and with the full programming (declaring all train lengths and block lengths (my case) the train must be shorter than the Block length plus the security length (in Rocrail Properties/Automatic, parameter "Min block-Train length"à In my case 10 my unit is mm (for block length, train length) but it could be cm or anything else provided same unit is used everywhere in Rocrail.

As already said, each train must be smaller than the smallest block and speed parameters and sensors must be placed so that never a train stops on 2 blocks as this would create a ghost train.

Here is an operation of my layout using Rocrail

Cheers

Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
Offline e.herborg  
#8 Posted : 16 February 2021 17:31:43(UTC)
e.herborg

Italy   
Joined: 08/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Piemonte, Torino
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi e.herborg (sorry no first name)
I am not a specialist but I use Rocrail since 6 years.
I think in a normal use you need 3 blocs to run 2 trains (at least with my settings). Do not check "reserve second next block" in Rocrail Properties/Automatic.

The theory is one block must be free to a train to move into it and with the full programming (declaring all train lengths and block lengths (my case) the train must be shorter than the Block length plus the security length (in Rocrail Properties/Automatic, parameter "Min block-Train length"à In my case 10 my unit is mm (for block length, train length) but it could be cm or anything else provided same unit is used everywhere in Rocrail.

As already said, each train must be smaller than the smallest block and speed parameters and sensors must be placed so that never a train stops on 2 blocks as this would create a ghost train.

Here is an operation of my layout using Rocrail

Cheers

Jean


Thank you, Jean! E. is for Enrico
Well, I'm a real newbie, I admired your layout and I hope to manage all the items that you control on it "digital only"
I found useful help on Rocrail Forum too, but I was stuck with my little simple complicated situation.
I built a little layout in a shop window, and watching a train run around the whole day is not so interesting, as you can imagine. So I tried that solution, and thanks to you, to Marti and Peder I'll try to control two trains on the same oval without any accident.
For now they are short ones (rail buses), so the length of contact tracks is not a problem.
I'll try, I hope that for the Easter's layout there will be good nows for the viewers!
Thank you all,
Enrico
Offline hxmiesa  
#9 Posted : 17 February 2021 06:47:58(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,208
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: Martti Mäntylä Go to Quoted Post
Nominally three blocks is enough, but then only one of the two trains can be moving at any time. Not so nice.
With additional blocks you will see more often that the both trains move at the same time.

Normally, with 3 blocks and 2 trains, what will (should) happen most of the time is this;
Train A leaves block 1. Once it is free of block 1, train 2 will begin to move.
So both trains A and B are moving at this moment, until either of them reach their signal.
Probably, when train A arrives at the next signal, hopefully train 2 has already left the block, and so, train A will just go on and on.

So what you have is that the slower train will always move, and the faster train will move in a stop-go pattern. This doesn't have to look bad, if you can hide the train stop-sections in tunnels and/or at station platform tracks.

This will happen always, regardless of you having 4, 5 or more blocks.
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline PMPeter  
#10 Posted : 17 February 2021 16:22:50(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,096
Location: Port Moody, BC
Under normal Rocrail operation, I disagree with what hxmiesa is saying. The block that Train A is leaving from is not set "Free" until Train A reaches the "In" sensor of the block it is going to at which point it will stop. Only then will Train B start moving to the now "Free" block and will stop when it reaches the "In" sensor of that block. Then the block it departed from is set "Free" and Train A can start to move. So under this standard Rocrail configuration only one train at a time can move in this 3 block scenario.

To do what hxmiesa is saying, you would have to select the option in Rocrail to "Free" the block when the "Enter" sensor of the next block is reached. This is not a recommended setting, but is an option if you have very short trains. If this option is selected you can have 2 trains moving at the same time.

Peter
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Online PeFu  
#11 Posted : 18 February 2021 00:13:20(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 880
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
To do what hxmiesa is saying, you would have to select the option in Rocrail to "Free" the block when the "Enter" sensor of the next block is reached. This is not a recommended setting, but is an option if you have very short trains.


...and/or if you have a certain distance between the blocks. I practice this on lines between stations, which derives a better traffic flow.

Smile

Inspired by Swiss railways SBB and BLS | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold V9
Youtube Channel for the Andreasburg-Mattiasberg layout
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Offline hxmiesa  
#12 Posted : 18 February 2021 06:51:03(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,208
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
To do what hxmiesa is saying, you would have to select the option in Rocrail to "Free" the block when the "Enter" sensor of the next block is reached. This is not a recommended setting, but is an option if you have very short trains. If this option is selected you can have 2 trains moving at the same time.

I am sure that any software would try to emulate the real life practice as much as possible.
A protected block is FREE the moment the train has completely left the block.
You don't want blocks "blocked" for the duration of the time a train takes to travel another block. -Especially if we are talking about long blocks...
Either there is some misconception about the way standard RocRail works, OR the standard setting is useless for that software.

What are "very short trains"? Short compared to what? This makes no sense.
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by hxmiesa
Offline e.herborg  
#13 Posted : 18 February 2021 10:02:58(UTC)
e.herborg

Italy   
Joined: 08/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Piemonte, Torino
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
To do what hxmiesa is saying, you would have to select the option in Rocrail to "Free" the block when the "Enter" sensor of the next block is reached. This is not a recommended setting, but is an option if you have very short trains. If this option is selected you can have 2 trains moving at the same time.

I am sure that any software would try to emulate the real life practice as much as possible.
A protected block is FREE the moment the train has completely left the block.
You don't want blocks "blocked" for the duration of the time a train takes to travel another block. -Especially if we are talking about long blocks...
Either there is some misconception about the way standard RocRail works, OR the standard setting is useless for that software.

What are "very short trains"? Short compared to what? This makes no sense.


Well, in my case, the layout is 300 x 100 cm, so I must use rail buses (BR 798 + 998) or BR 98 + one to two short freight wagons. In your opinion, where do you create the blocks, considering that the green track is the visible one and the rest is hidden from view? How long must they be?

Thank you all for your help, I didn't imagine that my problem is such a "false easy problem"....
Schermata 2021-02-18 alle 09.53.04.png

Online PeFu  
#14 Posted : 18 February 2021 13:09:26(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 880
Originally Posted by: e.herborg Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post


What are "very short trains"? Short compared to what? This makes no sense.

Well, in my case, the layout is 300 x 100 cm, so I must use rail buses (BR 798 + 998) or BR 98 + one to two short freight wagons. In your opinion, where do you create the blocks, considering that the green track is the visible one and the rest is hidden from view? How long must they be?

Schermata 2021-02-18 alle 09.53.04.png



A general rule for defining the block’s length is that they should be longer than the longest train intended to occupy the block. Also, they should provide a descent length for deceleration of the train, i.e. from hitting the initial ”brake” contact, until hitting the ”stop” contact. Max speed intended is an important factor here; The higher speed, the longer deceleration ramp is required to make everything look ”nice”.

Regarding how to arrange contacts and blocks, it basically depends on how you want your traffic. If you want a continuos ”chase” where the trains (almost) never decelerate and stop, you should have the blocks arranged with similar length and similare distance between the blocks, overall. But if you want the traffic to look maybe a bit more interesting, having some start and stop activities AND maybe two trains visible at the same time in the visible green area, another contact and block setup is required?

Smile
Inspired by Swiss railways SBB and BLS | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold V9
Youtube Channel for the Andreasburg-Mattiasberg layout
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Offline PMPeter  
#15 Posted : 18 February 2021 16:08:08(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,096
Location: Port Moody, BC
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post

A protected block is FREE the moment the train has completely left the block.



If you download Rocrail without adjusting any settings, the protected block becomes FREE when the train has reached the IN or ENTER2IN sensor of the next block. That is the only time that Rocrail knows the train is completely out of the previous block, provided all train length info has been entered properly.

You need to select the unrecommended option of FREEing the block when the ENTER sensor of the next block has been reached to FREE it up earlier. Usually when running trains, not just locos or railbus type consists, the back end of the train is still in the departing block when the next ENTER sensor is triggered and you really do not want another train entering that block until it is completely out of the block, which is when the IN has been triggered.
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Offline e.herborg  
#16 Posted : 23 February 2021 19:43:51(UTC)
e.herborg

Italy   
Joined: 08/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Piemonte, Torino
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post

A protected block is FREE the moment the train has completely left the block.



If you download Rocrail without adjusting any settings, the protected block becomes FREE when the train has reached the IN or ENTER2IN sensor of the next block. That is the only time that Rocrail knows the train is completely out of the previous block, provided all train length info has been entered properly.

You need to select the unrecommended option of FREEing the block when the ENTER sensor of the next block has been reached to FREE it up earlier. Usually when running trains, not just locos or railbus type consists, the back end of the train is still in the departing block when the next ENTER sensor is triggered and you really do not want another train entering that block until it is completely out of the block, which is when the IN has been triggered.


In your experience, is it mandatory that all the tracks between the IN and ENTER or ENTER2IN must have one rail insulated and connected to a feedback decoder, or it's enough that only the IN and ENTER or ENTER2IN are contact tracks?
Thank you,
Enrico
Offline JohnjeanB  
#17 Posted : 23 February 2021 21:22:21(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,432
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: e.herborg Go to Quoted Post


In your experience, is it mandatory that all the tracks between the IN and ENTER or ENTER2IN must have one rail insulated and connected to a feedback decoder, or it's enough that only the IN and ENTER or ENTER2IN are contact tracks?
Enrico

Hi Enrico

No there is no obligation to have contact rails in between.

What counts is when the signal is triggered BUT if one of the signals (ENTER, IN, ENTER2IN) is not freed when the train reaches the next block THEN the previous block will not allow a train to run towards it. This happens if a car is forgotten so it increases security.

The more you detect trains (percentage of tracks with detection over overall track) the more secure your train will be. By not allowing the start of a train towards a "not-so-free" zone, by turning the power off when a train is detected on a track where it was not expected (switch failure) and by other means the number of collisions is reduced to zero or close to it.

Cheers
Jean

My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
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Offline e.herborg  
#18 Posted : 07 March 2021 13:50:23(UTC)
e.herborg

Italy   
Joined: 08/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Piemonte, Torino
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: e.herborg Go to Quoted Post


In your experience, is it mandatory that all the tracks between the IN and ENTER or ENTER2IN must have one rail insulated and connected to a feedback decoder, or it's enough that only the IN and ENTER or ENTER2IN are contact tracks?
Enrico

Hi Enrico

No there is no obligation to have contact rails in between.

What counts is when the signal is triggered BUT if one of the signals (ENTER, IN, ENTER2IN) is not freed when the train reaches the next block THEN the previous block will not allow a train to run towards it. This happens if a car is forgotten so it increases security.

The more you detect trains (percentage of tracks with detection over overall track) the more secure your train will be. By not allowing the start of a train towards a "not-so-free" zone, by turning the power off when a train is detected on a track where it was not expected (switch failure) and by other means the number of collisions is reduced to zero or close to it.

Cheers
Jean



Good Sunday!
I added a short parallel track with two switches: in total I have four sections and three locos. All the locos are running in the same direction. Everything goes well, but sometimes a loco "jumps" a stop section and continues to run til the crash to next loco. I read "Could not lock route [bk4-]-[bk1+] , for BR .98 314". This is a random situations, switching off and restarting disappears. Why it happens?
Thank you
Enrico
Offline JohnjeanB  
#19 Posted : 07 March 2021 17:29:32(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,432
Location: Paris, France
Hi Enrico
I assume this could be a situation where very short sensor information are missed like with Reed sensors on a IN or ENTER2IN then the loco will continue and crash
Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
Offline e.herborg  
#20 Posted : 07 March 2021 21:38:23(UTC)
e.herborg

Italy   
Joined: 08/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Piemonte, Torino
Well, in fact I use 24236 track to act as a sensor. But the locos are really short (Glaskasten and ET 194) and the sensor is set to IN, I must learn how to use ENTER2IN yet
Offline PMPeter  
#21 Posted : 07 March 2021 21:59:08(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,096
Location: Port Moody, BC
Originally Posted by: e.herborg Go to Quoted Post
Well, in fact I use 24236 track to act as a sensor. But the locos are really short (Glaskasten and ET 194) and the sensor is set to IN, I must learn how to use ENTER2IN yet


Based on your response I am wondering if you have your sensors configured properly. If you have 2 sensors per block, the 1st sensor the locomotive encounters is ENTER and the 2nd sensor the locomotive encounters is IN which stops the locomotive. If you have a short block with only 1 sensor, you can use the ENTER2IN, where the locomotive encounters the ENTER sensor and a timer sets the IN.
Offline JohnjeanB  
#22 Posted : 07 March 2021 22:27:30(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,432
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: e.herborg Go to Quoted Post
Well, in fact I use 24236 track to act as a sensor. But the locos are really short (Glaskasten and ET 194) and the sensor is set to IN, I must learn how to use ENTER2IN yet

Hi Enrico
The 24236 is OK for a sensor. The issue could be with the Glaskasten which has one traction tire which means that often only one axle makes contact PROVIDED all wheel are clean. The best is to have at least one car (with 3 rail wheels) hooked to it
28972 Festzug -IMG_5088.JPG

Here is my Glasskasten Loco dubbed "Festzug" with a ESU Loksound 5 micro

This is probably your issue.
The other one is ENTER2IN versus IN:
  • use ENTER2IN (only one sensor for the block) allows to change the speed from V_cruise to V0. As soon as received, the loco speed will decrease in accordance with the "Brake Delay" you have set in your loco.
  • use ENTER to slow down from V_cruise to V_mid; then IN will reduce further the speed from V_mid to V0

So, if for any reason, the sensor IN or ENTER2IN is not detected, then the loco will continue at resp V_mid or V_cruise.
You can verify this on your screen (instead for the block of being pink, it remains yellow (not detected yet) or blue (partly detected by ENTER)
Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
Offline e.herborg  
#23 Posted : 07 March 2021 22:41:55(UTC)
e.herborg

Italy   
Joined: 08/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Piemonte, Torino
Well, I'm quite sure to have them correctly set up. Each block consists of a 24236 as ENTER, 1 or 2 normal (not insulated) 24236, then a 24236 as IN.
Offline e.herborg  
#24 Posted : 07 March 2021 22:49:47(UTC)
e.herborg

Italy   
Joined: 08/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Piemonte, Torino
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: e.herborg Go to Quoted Post
Well, in fact I use 24236 track to act as a sensor. But the locos are really short (Glaskasten and ET 194) and the sensor is set to IN, I must learn how to use ENTER2IN yet

Hi Enrico
The 24236 is OK for a sensor. The issue could be with the Glaskasten which has one traction tire which means that often only one axle makes contact PROVIDED all wheel are clean. The best is to have at least one car (with 3 rail wheels) hooked to it
28972 Festzug -IMG_5088.JPG

Here is my Glasskasten Loco dubbed "Festzug" with a ESU Loksound 5 micro

This is probably your issue.
The other one is ENTER2IN versus IN:
  • use ENTER2IN (only one sensor for the block) allows to change the speed from V_cruise to V0. As soon as received, the loco speed will decrease in accordance with the "Brake Delay" you have set in your loco.
  • use ENTER to slow down from V_cruise to V_mid; then IN will reduce further the speed from V_mid to V0

So, if for any reason, the sensor IN or ENTER2IN is not detected, then the loco will continue at resp V_mid or V_cruise.
You can verify this on your screen (instead for the block of being pink, it remains yellow (not detected yet) or blue (partly detected by ENTER)
Cheers
Jean


Sorry, Jean, I read your response after I sent mine. I'm quite sure you are right, I must add one or two little cars to Glaskasten and ET 194, that are the two locos that have that problem. Tomorrow I'll try and will keep you informed. Thank you very much!
Offline e.herborg  
#25 Posted : 15 March 2021 13:44:44(UTC)
e.herborg

Italy   
Joined: 08/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Piemonte, Torino
Goodmorning and thank you all. I added two cars to the short locos, and since then no one skipped the stop point.
Next step will be add to the track some semaphores. I know that in full automatic mode they are only scenographic items, but I'd like to use them only as protection of crossing routes, driving manually the locos and let RR only managing correctly the route I selected (i.e. go from A to B, set correctly the turnouts and put on red the semaphores to stop other incoming trains) Do you have experiences/suggestions?
Thank you,
Enrico
Offline JohnjeanB  
#26 Posted : 15 March 2021 17:56:51(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,432
Location: Paris, France
Hi Enrico
Originally Posted by: e.herborg Go to Quoted Post
but I'd like to use them only as protection of crossing routes,

You don't need a crossing route protection: Rocrail MUST do it for you.

How? Easy, crossings are declared like switches and doubleslipswitches. So they will be reserved like other track points protection all routes (Never ever had a collision because of crossing route BUT all switches must work well
Signal are EXCLUSIVELY for cosmetic purposes.
Cheers
Jean

My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
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