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Offline FMS  
#1 Posted : 06 February 2009 03:45:26(UTC)
FMS


Joined: 01/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 839
Location: PT
Hi! You guys know a lot about this stuff and I don't. Maybe this is a stupid qustion and the answer is already somewhere here in the forum, still i don't know where. So if you guys could answer to this question it woul be great.

My Marklin system is digital.I'm able to run MFX and FX locos. I never bought a Delta locomotive and i would like to know if it is possible to run Delta locos on my system, if possible can i do it without perform any kind of change to the loco, meaning, they work just fine and there's no need to make any change?

Thank you so much
Regards
FMS
Offline clapcott  
#2 Posted : 06 February 2009 04:48:37(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,448
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Delta IS Digital.

The term refers to the marketing subset aimed at those "transitioning" from analogue to digital controllers.
The main original difference being the ability to run on an analogue controlled layout by setting the address switches appropriately.

Technology and royalty demands have moved on and all modern decoders have the ability to auto-detect analogue or digital mode from the signal on the track.

The other , usually more obvious, limitation is that the decoders were constructed with 4 address switches (or solder pads) instead of 8 - thus limiting the range of addresses to 15 of the 80.
(some basic surgery can be used to access the full range 1-79)

So to make a "delta" loco work on a digital layout just set the address to anything but the analogue setting.
Because of the age of any delta loco you acquire you may find that the running characteristics are less than optimal but that is a motor/driver issue not a digital control issue.


Peter
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#3 Posted : 06 February 2009 04:53:45(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,772
Location: New Zealand
And the Delta locos tend to not have the better 5 pole Hi Efficiency motors that the full digital models have, and neither do they have a full range of functions that you would find on digital locos.

But as Peter suggests, they will run quite happily on a digital layout with other digital locos.
Offline RayF  
#4 Posted : 06 February 2009 12:10:31(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,870
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I sometimes see a lot of uninformed talk about Delta, even some calling it Marklin's greatest flop. The truth is quite different!

When Marklin came up with the digital system in the mid '80s, digital locos cost about 50% more than the equivalent analogue ones. Add to this the considerable cost of the digital controller, and we were looking at a rather heavy investment.

In the early '90s, Marklin decided to try to minimise the cost of making the jump to digital. Delta did this by addressing the two main costs in the process, the controller and the loco decoder.

Essentially, Marklin looked at delta to provide the essential function of a digital system, to be able to run more than one train on the same bit of track. To do this, they came up with the delta control, which allowed you to control 4 (later 5) locomotives digitally. Four addresses from the 80 available in the digital system were allocated to the delta system. Any digital or delta locomotive could be assigned those addresses, which meant that a small to medium layout could easily be run digitally with the delta control. To keep the cost down, there was no provision for functions, computer control, etc, although the last incarnation of the delta control, the 4F, had the F0 function button, allowing you to switch the loco lights on and off.

On the decoder side, they again looked at keeping the cost as low as possible, and the original loco decoders had 4 switches (or solder tags on the earliest) to be able to select one of the four delta addresses. In fact they also allowed another 11 possible addresses which could be used with a full digital controller. The lights could not be switched except on the very last series, the 66032. No other functions were provided, except that on the last models there were connections for Telex couplers.

As for the standard of control and running qualities, there was no difference between a loco with a 6080 decoder controlled by a 6021, and a Delta loco driven by a Delta control. The main limitation in both systems was the poor low speed running of the AC motors under digital control, and the lack of load control on the decoder. To address this, Marklin came up with the 6090 decoders and 5 pole DC motors in their 37xx models, which ran just as well on the delta system as on the full digital, but were obviously more expensive.

For me personally, Delta was a great success. By buying a starter set with a Delta 4F controller, I got into the digital world relatively cheaply, and eventually I made the simple upgrade to a 6021.

Delta locomotives, which cost no more than analogue ones, were a good choice for expanding my loco fleet, and even though I have converted many with high efficiency drives, I still run quite a few with their original delta decoders.

I am a firm defender of delta from it's critics, and this is because for me, as I'm sure for many others, it allowed a transition to digital which I might not have been able to afford otherwise.

Ray
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline kgsjoqvist  
#5 Posted : 06 February 2009 12:55:29(UTC)
kgsjoqvist

Sweden   
Joined: 04/06/2002(UTC)
Posts: 754
Location: Täby
I started up in 2002 with a Delta starter set and it was a good way to save money and still be able to use digital locos. At that time the price for a 6021 control unit was very high, and it was not an option for me. Later I got a 2nd hand 6021 at a much lower price.

But Delta was a good choice for beginners - now there are better systems available...
K-G / H0 and Z model train user
Offline WelshMatt  
#6 Posted : 06 February 2009 13:34:21(UTC)
WelshMatt


Joined: 06/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,345
Location: ,
I have an Re 4/4 IV (3323) converted with a 66032 Delta decoder because I couldn't get hold of the 60760 kit at a sensible price. It runs very sweetly indeed, and the slow speed isn't much of a problem for a long-distance loco.

I do have a couple of shunters with Delta decoders that are horrible - they either crawl or take off like rockets.
Matt from Wales.

When you pay Range Rover prices, don't accept Lada quality
Offline RayF  
#7 Posted : 06 February 2009 15:28:05(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,870
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote: do have a couple of shunters with Delta decoders that are horrible - they either crawl or take off like rockets.


biggrinbiggrinbiggrin

I know just what you mean!
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline dntower85  
#8 Posted : 06 February 2009 16:24:31(UTC)
dntower85

United States   
Joined: 08/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,218
Location: Shady Shores, TX - USA
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by RayPayas
<br />
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote: do have a couple of shunters with Delta decoders that are horrible - they either crawl or take off like rockets.

biggrinbiggrinbiggrin
I know just what you mean!

Same here, and some of my Delta locs are harder to control via the computer, they don't seem to receive the signal as quickly and also need more power to climb a grade and then runaway going down a grade. Makes running in an automatic mode difficult. I had a type BR41 that I had to convert for this reason.
Also Deltas draw more current do to the field coil on the motor, so that will limit how many Locs can be run
DT
Now powered by ECoS II unit#2, RocRail
era - some time in the future when the space time continuum is disrupted and ICE 3 Trains run on the same rails as the Adler and BR18's.
Offline WelshMatt  
#9 Posted : 06 February 2009 19:48:53(UTC)
WelshMatt


Joined: 06/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,345
Location: ,
The problem is that the proper 6090x decoder kits would cost more than the locos did, and the 60760 can't be programmed by my 6022-based controller. Assuming that you can find 60760s anywhere in the first place...
Matt from Wales.

When you pay Range Rover prices, don't accept Lada quality
Offline hemau  
#10 Posted : 06 February 2009 20:03:59(UTC)
hemau


Joined: 09/01/2007(UTC)
Posts: 589
Location: The Netherlands
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by dntower85
.... and also need more power to climb a grade and then runaway going down a grade. ...

Just like a real train !biggrinbiggrinbiggrin
C and M track; CS1R and 2 MS
Offline RayF  
#11 Posted : 06 February 2009 21:43:17(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,870
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by hemau
<br />
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by dntower85
.... and also need more power to climb a grade and then runaway going down a grade. ...

Just like a real train !biggrinbiggrinbiggrin


Yes, that's right. In fact, I quite like the challenge of driving the older non load regulated locos. You have to drive it like a real train. Of course, this is not good for automated systems.

Ray
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline FMS  
#12 Posted : 06 February 2009 22:31:54(UTC)
FMS


Joined: 01/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 839
Location: PT
Cool! So i can use Delta in my layout and use de MS to control it! Great.
Regards
FMS
Offline DTaylor91  
#13 Posted : 06 February 2009 22:51:30(UTC)
DTaylor91


Joined: 31/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 414
Location: Kennesaw, GA
Another thing I did to my Delta locomotives was to buy the appropriate 5-pole armature and drop it in place of the 3-pole armature. It makes a HUGE difference in drivability! It also seems that the smaller the driving wheels, the better the performance you could get from a Delta decoder.

Don

Offline dntower85  
#14 Posted : 06 February 2009 22:54:27(UTC)
dntower85

United States   
Joined: 08/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,218
Location: Shady Shores, TX - USA
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by FMS
<br />Cool! So i can use Delta in my layout and use de MS to control it! Great.


And on your MS you will be able to add NEW Lok from data base and enter the model number. And it will show up on the screen with the correct Icon and name.
DT
Now powered by ECoS II unit#2, RocRail
era - some time in the future when the space time continuum is disrupted and ICE 3 Trains run on the same rails as the Adler and BR18's.
Offline DTaylor91  
#15 Posted : 06 February 2009 22:55:48(UTC)
DTaylor91


Joined: 31/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 414
Location: Kennesaw, GA
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by RayPayas
<br />
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by hemau
<br />
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by dntower85
.... and also need more power to climb a grade and then runaway going down a grade. ...

Just like a real train !biggrinbiggrinbiggrin


Yes, that's right. In fact, I quite like the challenge of driving the older non load regulated locos. You have to drive it like a real train. Of course, this is not good for automated systems.

Ray


Ray,
Would you be up for a REAL challenge? I'll send you my 3411 Br 18.1, which has the Delta decoder as well as the free-wheeling drive of the 18.1! It's a challenge pulling a train with it on an (almost) level floor!biggrin

Then again, if the 18.1 in your avatar is a Delta, you already know all thisSmile.

Don
Offline FMS  
#16 Posted : 06 February 2009 23:07:04(UTC)
FMS


Joined: 01/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 839
Location: PT
Darren,

Thank you for the tip.But this is the process that i use for the FX locs, right? Like the set with to BR18 that i recently bought.
Regards
FMS
Offline dntower85  
#17 Posted : 06 February 2009 23:14:58(UTC)
dntower85

United States   
Joined: 08/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,218
Location: Shady Shores, TX - USA
Yes just like any other markin digital Loc
DT
Now powered by ECoS II unit#2, RocRail
era - some time in the future when the space time continuum is disrupted and ICE 3 Trains run on the same rails as the Adler and BR18's.
Offline hemau  
#18 Posted : 06 February 2009 23:22:55(UTC)
hemau


Joined: 09/01/2007(UTC)
Posts: 589
Location: The Netherlands
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by DTaylor91
Ray,
Would you be up for a REAL challenge? I'll send you my 3411 Br 18.1, which has the Delta decoder as well as the free-wheeling drive of the 18.1! It's a challenge pulling a train with it on an (almost) level floor!biggrin

Then again, if the 18.1 in your avatar is a Delta, you already know all thisSmile.

Don


I'm curious about the BR 18. I've got a BR 18 Rheingold if I'm right, but I think it's digital. But it should have the same drive. What's so special about driving this engine? My experiency is that is not a good puller of heavy trains, not even the Rheingold it came with.
It's a beautiful engine anyhow!
R., Henk
C and M track; CS1R and 2 MS
Offline DTaylor91  
#19 Posted : 06 February 2009 23:35:47(UTC)
DTaylor91


Joined: 31/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 414
Location: Kennesaw, GA
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by hemau
<br />
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by DTaylor91
Ray,
Would you be up for a REAL challenge? I'll send you my 3411 Br 18.1, which has the Delta decoder as well as the free-wheeling drive of the 18.1! It's a challenge pulling a train with it on an (almost) level floor!biggrin

Then again, if the 18.1 in your avatar is a Delta, you already know all thisSmile.

Don


I'm curious about the BR 18. I've got a BR 18 Rheingold if I'm right, but I think it's digital. But it should have the same drive. What's so special about driving this engine? My experiency is that is not a good puller of heavy trains, not even the Rheingold it came with.
It's a beautiful engine anyhow!
R., Henk


Henk,

The Br 18 for the Rheingold is a Br 18.4, or the former Bavarian S3/6. It has the regular Märklin 5-star motor. The locomotive I was referring to is the Br 18.1, which is the former Württemberg Class C. It has a can motor in the boiler, with a free-wheeling gear drive. IN other words, even with the power off, you can gently push the locomotive on the track and the wheels will turn. So, if it has a heavy train, a Delta decoder, and is going down a hill, you are NOT going to be stopping it until gravity helps you out!biggrin

Another oddity I found out about that particular model, even with the power off completely, if you push the locomotive fast enough the motor generates enough electricity on its own to illuminate the headlights! Hmm, typing that just then gave me an evil idea. I wonder if there's a way to use that "feature" as a regenerative brake going downhill in the same manner a prototypical diesel locomotive would....[:p]

Don
Offline hemau  
#20 Posted : 07 February 2009 00:12:54(UTC)
hemau


Joined: 09/01/2007(UTC)
Posts: 589
Location: The Netherlands
Don, thanks for the information,I just went up to the package of the Rheingold and you're completely right about its features. It is indeed a BR 18.4 (not quite familiar with the specific differences in this family), with a he 5* controlled motor (set nr 26750). I could get it to stop on a downgrade, I believe.

What about your idea of using the motor as a brake, it's quite different from a Diesel motor brake. But you could use an electric motor as a dynamo and as such as a brake if you use the proper steering electronics. In fact, most Dutch (European?) 1:1 electric trains and trams use this technology by feeding back braking power to the net.
Regards, Henk
C and M track; CS1R and 2 MS
Offline WelshMatt  
#21 Posted : 07 February 2009 02:04:37(UTC)
WelshMatt


Joined: 06/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,345
Location: ,
I might try that five pole armature swap trick if I can find the right ones at a sane price. I know fitting BEMF decoders to old 3 pole DC locos did wonders for their slow running, so swapping the armature should have a similar effect.
Matt from Wales.

When you pay Range Rover prices, don't accept Lada quality
Offline DTaylor91  
#22 Posted : 07 February 2009 04:45:10(UTC)
DTaylor91


Joined: 31/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 414
Location: Kennesaw, GA
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by hemau
<br />Don, thanks for the information,I just went up to the package of the Rheingold and you're completely right about its features. It is indeed a BR 18.4 (not quite familiar with the specific differences in this family), with a he 5* controlled motor (set nr 26750). I could get it to stop on a downgrade, I believe.

What about your idea of using the motor as a brake, it's quite different from a Diesel motor brake. But you could use an electric motor as a dynamo and as such as a brake if you use the proper steering electronics. In fact, most Dutch (European?) 1:1 electric trains and trams use this technology by feeding back braking power to the net.
Regards, Henk


Henk,

I should have been more specific. Almost every diesel locomotive that ever operated in the US was/is a diesel-electric, and ALL the currently used locomotives are diesel-electrics. So, quite a lot of them use regenerative braking on long downhill grades by feeding the current generated by the traction motors through a heavy resistive load on top of the loco.

Diesel-hydraulics never caught on in the US, but a couple western US railroads experimented with a few Krauss-Maffei imports.

Don

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